Guardians of The Lambsfoot!

Archie: firstly, welcome! And I'm glad that you liked the Lambsfoot pattern enough to give it another go, after your experience with your first knife.

I have five A. Wright knives: three of them are Lambsfoot patterns, all of them are straight edged blade designs.

I'm going to be absolutely honest with you. None of them are perfectly straight in the blade, however, having said that, no knife blades are exactly laser straight. It's in the nature of a geometrically varied shape, to dimensionally alter when it goes through an extremely stressful thermal process like heating to induce austenitic transformation, and then rapid quenching to transform that austenitic structure to martensite.

Although I'm not a metallurgist (so take my words with a large grain of salt), the transformation from austenite to martensite involves crystalline 'grain' growth of up to 14%. Variations in the blade steel cross section, like plunge lines, nail nicks, swedges, and the tapering thickness from the spine to the edge, can all induce some level of ripple, or 'curvature' along the blade flats, as you say. Also. as Charlie noted, any retained austenite in the steel, post heat treat, can transform to martensite later, either from working, or just from the passing of time. Considering the dimensional difference between cubic austenite, compared to tetrahedral martensite, this is what creates the bending over time which can happen, which the Case representatives referred to. This is also why (in general), heat treating should aim at minimal retained austenite.

So, essentially I think, what we are looking for, is a blade that is not so rippled that it drags on one side in cutting, due to longitudinal bending, and, as you observed, can lay flat on a bench stone for sharpening.

Of my three A. Wright Lambsfoot knives, I have actually sharpened them in three different ways, as I also observed the same issue you did. I should also say here, that I was taught how to assess blade straightness by my friend, ABS Mastersmith, Murray Carter, and it's a double edged sword, that I certainly haven't employed to assess all of my knives. Murray mentioned that it's impolite to give a rigorous straightness inspection to custom knives in front of the maker, and there are many, many knives which are far more expensive than these A. Wright working tools, which are very rippled on close scrutiny. This includes master forged katanas, and the highest end kitchen knives. The two best of my A. Wright Lambsfoot knives are, for my purposes, well within the margin of acceptability.

One of these - my Ebony Lambsfoot, I sharpen with ceramic rods, which 'follow' the slight deviation along the edge apex. I use a Spyderco Sharpmaker, but a Lansky crock set, or a ceramic/diamond or traditional metal steel will also be effective. My stag handled Lambsfoot (a generous gift from a very generous Porch member;)) has been sharpened in a different way. I laid it with the spine very close to touching a coarse 400 grit Chosera waterstone, and stripped off a lot of material just behind the edge, to thin it out behind the edge apex, then applied an apex 'bevel' with the Spyderco Sharpmaker. The 'curvature' is visible in the varying bevel height, but it is extremely sharp, and also very easy to resharpen, and that is what is important to me.

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My golden ox-horn handled Lambsfoot was more problematic, and I believe this is probably the most similar to the issues you described with your first Lambsfoot.

I have described my treatment of this knife before in this thread, and in the end, I would recommend the following options.

-Return it and contact me by PM for a more reliable dealer, who will examine, and possibly hand select your knife before shipping.

-Use the technique I did on my golden ox-horn Lambsfoot of grinding the flats heavily, to recentre them and thin them out as much as possible, before applying the edge apex.

-Use a rod based sharpening system with a small contact area, that 'follows' the slight blade ripple.

I should add that it is my belief that A. Wright & Son have increased their QC over the last few years, as their workers have gained in experience, and as they have become more aware of what collectors deem important (which is not at all the same as what makes a good usin' knife IMHO.) A. Wright & Son are one of the only makers I am aware of in Sheffield who have put on apprentice cutlers in recent years (who, I understand have now completed their apprenticeships). This is a practise that, personally, I am willing to support with my business, and that I applaud, and am also willing to give a little leeway for.

It is also worth stating that I understand that some of the very fine work on this recent superb run of Guardians 2017 Lambsfoot knives was performed by some of those newest Sheffield working cutlers, who were recently apprentices in training at A. Wright.

I'm very sorry Chin, I completely missed your excellent response to Archie's post until now! :oops: I think I had already started writing my post. Yet another great post my friend :) :thumbsup:

Just in terms of your last paragraph, yes indeed, when I saw how well the bolsters had been ground on the Guardians Lambsfoot, I assumed they had been done by one of the older fellers, who had probably done this style of bolster before. I asked John Maleham about it, and he told me that the bolsters had in fact been ground by one of the younger cutlers. He clearly has a lot of skill :) :thumbsup:
 
theres something about that blade shape, is that different in any way? i wrote to John Maleham about my ironwoods and he said thats how some are, still lamboots
 
theres something about that blade shape, is that different in any way? i wrote to John Maleham about my ironwoods and he said thats how some are, still lamboots

He's right, some have a bit more of a curve, particularly on the 'posher' knives. Sometimes a photo can make them look more rounded too :thumbsup:
 
There are plenty of photos of the pantograph machine at Wright's elsewhere in this thread, but I took this pic of the side of the machine the other day. Hadn't noticed this until then, the 'War' in question, is WW1 :cool:

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That's cool, Jack. :thumbsup: This feels like getting brand new 100 year old knives!

Thanks r8shell, yes, what little machinery there is at Wright's is mostly very old, some of it considerably older than the pantograph machine. Knives have been made in that old building for a long time, and the cutlers I've spoken to are also from long lines of cutlers (the 'young man' who made our bolsters works there with his dad, who did his apprenticeship under his own father). I don't think they're using modern manufacturing techniques at all. Probably, the newest thing is the electricity! :D :thumbsup:

There would have been lots of similar machines in Sheffield at one time, but I doubt there's many left now. John Maleham was telling me about another manufacturer, who got rid of two, thinking he could use acid-etching instead, but really regrets selling them for scrap, as they are sorely missed. In terms of the small 'bits' for the machine, John thinks they will have to manufacture some themselves as nobody else has made them for years. I think they are copper with a steel core :thumbsup:
 
That multiple pantograph machine would be expensive to build!!
War Finish? Wonder what that means?
 
I hope everyone's enjoying their weekend. Just catching up a bit...

Very happy to hear that your Ebony Lambsfoot has turned up again, that is fantastic news. I bet it is like experiencing New Knife Day all over again! :D

Thanks Dylan: it was actually slightly better than New Knife Day, my friend!;) I like to do a bit of sharpening and edge refinement, and I sometimes smooth the handle contours a bit, and tune the action of new knives before they go in the pocket. So, even though this knife is absolutely one that I would replace with another, if I permanently lost it, I was very glad to have 'my' Ebony Lambsfoot back. Funny thing, as soon as I extracted it from where it had been hidden, it just felt perfect in my hand again. The cool, silky feel and solid weight of the ebony handle; the easy pinch opening that belies the right handed bias of most traditional knives; the firm snap on opening and closing; and the blade which is the perfect length for my forefinger to rest on the 'hump' and give me a extra fingernails-length of thin, razor sharp point protruding…. well, I'm not ashamed to say that I really do love this knife!:eek::D;)

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Thank you to Dylan for his thoughtfulness, hard work, and generosity :) Aren't these something? :thumbsup:

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Absolutely! Really fine work Dylan.:cool::thumbsup:

I didn't think I could be more excited about this great run of Lambsfoots, but having your tooled leather slip to look forward to carrying my Guardians 2017 Lambsfoot in, has heightened the anticipation!

Great job, my friend and what a kind and thoughtful gesture, I'll certainly carry mine with pride.:)

(I also meant to say a while back, how much I've enjoyed reading your hunting trip reports, and thoughts on using Linus out in the wild.:thumbsup:)

Chin, congrats on finding your lost lambsfoot; it's a classic!! :thumbsup::cool::thumbsup::)
I'll approve of almost ANY knife combo, including that pair! :thumbsup::thumbsup:;) I'd not heard of an Escort before, so thanks for broadening my Vic horizons - basically a scissorless Classic, right? My wife does NOT approve of my paying for Escorts, though! :D:rolleyes:
The "slippery slope" Alan is on leads to Knirvana!! :thumbsup:;):thumbsup:

Ha ha, thanks GT.:D True that, my friend, well that's what I keep telling myself anyway.:D;)

(Yes the Escort's essentially a scissorless Classic, although the knife blade folds out of the opposite end to the keyring, like the Wengers, which I prefer. As a pair with a Lambsfoot, the SD screwdriver/mini prying tool works very well, I find. And I can use the SAK blade in social situations where I want my cutting tool to be a bit more low key.)

"smells like victory"

LOL! :D It's actually pretty overpowering with the amount of freshly minted horn Lambsfoot knives around! :D :thumbsup:

It will be an incentive for me to get them shipped quick GT! :D ;) :thumbsup:

I guess Victory would possibly smell something like burnt hair, which is how I've heard knifemakers describe the smell of grinding horn!:eek: Luckily I never noticed any such scent on my horn handled knives, so I guess it fades quickly.;)

This one would have been fine if the pen blade hadn't been covering the main nail-nick. Maybe they have lambsfoots with the nick on the opposite side, and they used the wrong one.
If I had tried the eo notch first, I probably could have saved myself the grinding of the pen. But it's a nice, rugged, and straight knife, for all that.
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Nice to see that one again, Jer, it's looking great. I admire your problem solving approach, too. Do you find you've used that pen blade/clip blade much? If I had a Lambsfoot with secondary blade, I'd actually really like to try one with a short, spey blade, like a Stockman. Sadly, I don't think there is such a thing (yet).:)

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I think I'll be keeping the rosewood example because the bend really is subtle...I probably wouldn't have noticed, but I was looking for it since the previous knife was so bad. After the explanations above, I also won't be checking any of my existing knives with a straight edge.

Cheers Archie, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on using your Rosewood Lambsfoot, given that you said you quite enjoyed the handle ergonomics.

I wonder if a slight warp in a blade is more noticeable on a straight edged blade like a lambsfoot. When I'm freehand sharpening on a stone, I'll sometimes notice that my edge shows a variation in the height of the bevel, as in your picture, Chin. Maybe the same thing happens sometimes on blades with a belly like a clip or spear, but it's harder to know if it's the blade or my limited sharpening skills. :oops: I know I've bought used knives that seemed fine until I went to sharpen them and realized someone had done some 'light prying'. :rolleyes: Not enough to affect use, but enough to notice against a flat stone.

I think you're right R8shell, my friend. Although in general, once you start to grind a more acute edge onto a knife, any ripple does become quite a bit more apparent, no matter the blade shape. I've had the same experience too, where a properly flattened bench stone can reveal a slightly bent tip from prying, that my eye didn't pick up.

It's worth noting that blade straightening (if necessary) is a specific step in the knife making process, after heat treating. As it needs to be done immediately after (or during) the heat treat process, I wonder what happens when blades are outsourced to a generalist heat treater who may not be a cutler, and who may not even have any real specific knowledge of blades, besides a target hardness range?

The old saying: "For a keen edge to win, forge thick, and grind thin" has a good deal of wisdom behind it.;)

I'm very sorry Chin, I completely missed your excellent response to Archie's post until now! :oops: I think I had already started writing my post. Yet another great post my friend :) :thumbsup:

Just in terms of your last paragraph, yes indeed, when I saw how well the bolsters had been ground on the Guardians Lambsfoot, I assumed they had been done by one of the older fellers, who had probably done this style of bolster before. I asked John Maleham about it, and he told me that the bolsters had in fact been ground by one of the younger cutlers. He clearly has a lot of skill :) :thumbsup:

Thanks Jack, and certainly no apologies necessary, my friend.:) Yes, I was a little anxious to see how those fluted bolsters would be rendered, given they haven't been seen on a production Lambsfoot knife for quite some time, as far as I know. That young cutler has done a superb job on them, and should be commended. I wonder if the younger cutlers at Wright's know about the Guardians thread? I think those swedges are really well done too, I was particularly pleased to see the way they'd ground them, as well.:thumbsup:

Thought I'd preserve the polish on my Guardians Lambsfoot just a wee bit longer, and use my ebony AW Lambsfoot to fix supper ;)


Very tasty looking Lambsfoot fry-up, there, Jack.:thumbsup::)

Have a good Sunday Lambsfooters :thumbsup:

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Do you have a valid pyrotechnics permit for that knife, Mr Black?:p:D

I haven't had a chance to carry this one yet. Need to take better pics :)

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Is that a new 'Senator' there, mate? And are those bone covers?

There are plenty of photos of the pantograph machine at Wright's elsewhere in this thread, but I took this pic of the side of the machine the other day. Hadn't noticed this until then, the 'War' in question, is WW1 :cool:

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Really interesting to see that pantograph mark. So I'm guessing that if you can design and cut out a stencil (if that's the word for it) you can etch any design you like on a blade? Any idea what kind of electro etching would have been required on WWI materiel?

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That multiple pantograph machine would be expensive to build!!
War Finish? Wonder what that means?

For sure Charlie! :eek: I reckon it'd cost tens of thousands today. I suspect 'War Finish' meant that it wasn't made fancy?! In case you missed it previously, here's a pic of a similar machine in use for marking flatware :thumbsup:

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I guess Victory would possibly smell something like burnt hair, which is how I've heard knifemakers describe the smell of grinding horn!:eek:

I've been in several cutler's workshops when they've been grinding/polishing horn, and it absolutely stinks mate! :eek: :D

It's worth noting that blade straightening (if necessary) is a specific step in the knife making process, after heat treating. As it needs to be done immediately after (or during) the heat treat process, I wonder what happens when blades are outsourced to a generalist heat treater who may not be a cutler, and who may not even have any real specific knowledge of blades, besides a target hardness range?

I have a couple of books with interviews with old specialist hardeners, and they make for interesting reading. It was both an art and real love for some of them at least. Even in Sheffield today, there are still enough firms producing flatware, small tools, and various knives to make it worth local heat-treaters specialising, but of course there can be incompetence and complacency in any trade, as well as outfits that simply haven't kept up with technology.

The old saying: "For a keen edge to win, forge thick, and grind thin" has a good deal of wisdom behind it.;)

:) :thumbsup:

Thanks Jack, and certainly no apologies necessary, my friend.:) Yes, I was a little anxious to see how those fluted bolsters would be rendered, given they haven't been seen on a production Lambsfoot knife for quite some time, as far as I know. That young cutler has done a superb job on them, and should be commended. I wonder if the younger cutlers at Wright's know about the Guardians thread? I think those swedges are really well done too, I was particularly pleased to see the way they'd ground them, as well.:thumbsup:

I've often wondered the same Chin, but nobody has ever mentioned it. Could be that after a day in a cutlery factory, the last thing you want to read about is cutlery! :D :thumbsup:

Very tasty looking Lambsfoot fry-up, there, Jack.:thumbsup::)

Thank you my friend :)

Do you have a valid pyrotechnics permit for that knife, Mr Black?:p:D

:D :thumbsup:

Is that a new 'Senator' there, mate? And are those bone covers?

Some old tooth ;)

Really interesting to see that pantograph mark. So I'm guessing that if you can design and cut out a stencil (if that's the word for it) you can etch any design you like on a blade? Any idea what kind of electro etching would have been required on WWI materiel?

Yes indeed, the stencil is fixed in place, and the operator simply follows it. "Stolen From the Officers' Mess"? :D I guess it must have been quite important to mark things because pantograph operators are included in the list of occupations exempt from military service. Fantastic pics, as always my friend :) Here's another one of that old tooth, a 'second' that landed in my lap ;) :thumbsup:

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Mom always said, "If you step away from the dinner table, you'll miss dessert." I think I've missed a week's worth. :)
Fantastic knives everyone and Jack, that last batch is incredible!!!
Beautiful custom leather sheaths as well by Padruig.
Here is an old fellow by Joseph Elliot.

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Good to see you here my friend :) That is a very striking knife, and a wonderful photo, as always :) :thumbsup:
 
War Finish? Wonder what that means?

Apparently it meant just a rough painted finish to speed up production and reduce costs. It was used in WW2 (from 1940), but I'm not sure about WW1, possibly the machine isn't quite as old as Mr Maleham believes.
 
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