Guardians of The Lambsfoot!

Thanks for breathing fresh life into our discussion Lee :) As you know, our oldest knives have straight-edges. Here's a a couple from the Iron Age (clearly the straight-edge is more versatile than many modern knife users suppose! ;)).





Bearing that in mind, I think it's hardly surprising that there are so many forms. Many Quill Knives have a sort of thin 'Short Beak' blade, also sometimes called a 'Clipped Blade', like on this Joseph Rodgers. Almost like a long thin coping blade.




The IXL Pruning Knives I referred to are these, the one on the left is the one of interest to us I think, but despite its relatively slim blade, I'd class it as a Sheepsfoot rather than a Lambsfoot. The cutlers of course, may not have used either term, they may have called it a Pruner blade, or a type of Pruner blade, or something else entirely.



Probably the closest we've managed to find to an early Lambsfoot are the Short Beak blades in Smith's Key. Personally (and we're ALL speculating my friend :) ) I don't think any of these blade shapes morphed into a Lambsfoot, I think they're all different, but they show that people appreciated the usefulness of a narrower straight-edged blade.



For me, a key thing is not just the adoption of the 'Lambsfoot' name or the 'Real Lamb Foot' stamp, but when we first see a narrow straight-edged blade with an edge which does not run parallel to the spine, which despite some anomalies, I still regard as the defining feature of the Lambsfoot blade. Possibly, all these features go together.

Thanks very much Jack :thumbsup: - Excellent summary and examples of knives illustrating the historical perspective of the Lambs Foot design which indeed is quite helpful :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :D ... Knife history can be so interesting and for me (as well as many of you) half the reason for the "obsession" :) ...
 
Thanks very much Jack :thumbsup: - Excellent summary and examples of knives illustrating the historical perspective of the Lambs Foot design which indeed is quite helpful :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :D ... Knife history can be so interesting and for me (as well as many of you) half the reason for the "obsession" :) ...

A pleasure Lee, thanks for joining the discussion :) :thumbsup:
 
Who would have thought that there could be so much discussion about Lambsfoot and Sheepsfoot blades and knives... :)
Great thoughts and insights from Cambertree, Longblade, and Jack of course. One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the curious sheepfoot blade shape in Smith's 1816 book. Labeled as a "Sheep Foot" blade, the model shown has a sheepfoot profile on the back side of the blade, but a curved (not flat) cutting surface closer to a pruning blade, which is shown below the sheepfoot model. At least this shows the earliest known time frame for the sheepfoot name, but nothing in writing yet for the lambsfoot name until the late 1800s.

 
Nice example of the "labeled" Sheeps Foot Herder :thumbsup: ... interesting if one considers Chin's comment on the dropped point of the knives I posted from Smith's Key (#233-234) as my speculation on early Lambs Foot blades - I would say that the Sheeps Foot blade (#229-229A) had a dropped point (if one drew an imaginary straight cutting edge you no doubt would recognize that blade as a Sheeps Foot)... Also nice to see the name in print but one wonders based on the lack of names on multiple blades in Smith's key (including those 4 Jack posted that were just under the category of Pen Knives but clearly different blades among them) whether Lambs Foot blades existed with the examples posted above but the name "Lambs Foot" had not been named or coined at that time is something to ponder... so for me while sometimes it is nice to see the written name of a blade for documentation purposes I think one needs to consider that the blades may have existed but not yet termed as such... of course if the question is "when did the name Lambs Foot first appear in print?" rather than "when did the Lambs Foot blade design first appear?" are two different investigations and stories though related in a sense :D ...
 
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Nice example of the "labeled" Sheeps Foot Herder :thumbsup: ... interesting if one considers Chin's comment on the dropped point of the knives I posted from Smith's Key (#233-234) as my speculation on early Lambs Foot blades - I would say that the Sheeps Foot blade (#229-229A) had a dropped point (if one drew an imaginary straight cutting edge you no doubt would recognize that blade as a Sheeps Foot)... Also nice to see the name in print but one wonders based on the lack of names on multiple blades in Smith's key (including those 4 Jack posted that were just under the category of Pen Knives but clearly different blades among them) whether Lambs Foot blades existed with the examples posted above but the name "Lambs Foot" had not been named or coined at that time is something to ponder... so for me while sometimes it is nice to see the written name of a blade for documentation purposes I think one needs to consider that the blades may have existed but not yet termed as such... of course if the question is "when did the name Lambs Foot first appear in print?" rather than "when did the first Lambs Foot blade design first appear?" are two different investigations and stories though related in a sense :D ...
Well stated sir! It is interesting that investigating the answers to these questions would rely on having access to two forms of goods that were literally consumed by use (print sources, and mint condition pocket knives). Most difficult to research, but fascinating to ponder.
 
Nice example of the "labeled" Sheeps Foot Herder :thumbsup: ... interesting if one considers Chin's comment on the dropped point of the knives I posted from Smith's Key (#233-234) as my speculation on early Lambs Foot blades - I would say that the Sheeps Foot blade (#229-229A) had a dropped point (if one drew an imaginary straight cutting edge you no doubt would recognize that blade as a Sheeps Foot)... Also nice to see the name in print but one wonders based on the lack of names on multiple blades in Smith's key (including those 4 Jack posted that were just under the category of Pen Knives but clearly different blades among them) whether Lambs Foot blades existed with the examples posted above but the name "Lambs Foot" had not been named or coined at that time is something to ponder... so for me while sometimes it is nice to see the written name of a blade for documentation purposes I think one needs to consider that the blades may have existed but not yet termed as such... of course if the question is "when did the name Lambs Foot first appear in print?" rather than "when did the Lambs Foot blade design first appear?" are two different investigations and stories though related in a sense :D ...


Older knife catalogs from the 1800s and early 1900s are very lean in their descriptions of most models and certainly with blade types in particular, so it is quite important to note when a catalog does state such a detail. I certainly agree that the Sheepsfoot blades were a modification of the existing Wharncliffe or Drop Point blades, and will go out on a limb and suggest that the Sheepsfoot blades (as we recognize them today) were developed in the early 1800s. I base this on looking at European blade examples from the 17th and 18th centuries which commonly show drop point blades, but no Sheepsfoot models. We could argue that Roman era examples with a squared off drop point blade were the earliest form of a Sheepsfoot model, but not really the same. Enclosed are two catalog cuts showing a Sheepsfoot blade next to a Wharncliffe or Drop Point blade for comparison, and also a catalog cut of a typical Drop Point bladed knife from the late 1700s.



 
I am fascinated by all aspects of cutlery history and the discussion of the development of different patterns and design features. However, having seen previous Lambsfoot threads entirely swamped by photos of, and discussion about, other straight-edged patterns, right from the start of this thread, I've been anxious that the same didn't happen again. While discussing the history of the Lambsfoot pattern, it's inevitable that other straight-edged patterns are referenced, and there's an interesting discussion to be had about all of them. I'm concerned though, that the discussion is beginning to move away from the Lambsfoot pattern, and could easily go further down that road. I'm at least as prone to wander as anyone, but I'd be grateful if we could keep this thread focused on the Lambsfoot, and only reference other patterns in direct relation to that pattern. Hope that makes sense?

Thanks :thumbsup:
 
I am fascinated by all aspects of cutlery history and the discussion of the development of different patterns and design features. However, having seen previous Lambsfoot threads entirely swamped by photos of, and discussion about, other straight-edged patterns, right from the start of this thread, I've been anxious that the same didn't happen again. While discussing the history of the Lambsfoot pattern, it's inevitable that other straight-edged patterns are referenced, and there's an interesting discussion to be had about all of them. I'm concerned though, that the discussion is beginning to move away from the Lambsfoot pattern, and could easily go further down that road. I'm at least as prone to wander as anyone, but I'd be grateful if we could keep this thread focused on the Lambsfoot, and only reference other patterns in direct relation to that pattern. Hope that makes sense?

Thanks :thumbsup:


Your'e right my friend, and thanks for setting the train back on the tracks. :)

It's interesting to see that Joseph Rodgers was still producing the Lambsfoot model even near the end of the old original Pond Hill Works location in the late 1960s.
Here is a Rodgers catalog cut from 1962 showing a classic Lambsfoot folder, albeit with black synthetic handles.

View attachment 729301



 
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Your'e right my friend, and thanks for setting the train back on the tracks. :)

It's interesting to see that Joseph Rodgers was still producing the Lambsfoot model even near the end of the old original Pond Hill Works location in the late 1960s.
Here is a Rodgers catalog cut from 1962 showing a classic Lambsfoot folder, albeit with black synthetic handles.


Thank you very much my friend :) And thanks for showing that classic Rodgers Lambsfoot. My very first Lambsfoot was a Rodgers from that period, possibly made a little later, but I'm unable to recall if it had that etch or the 'Real Lamb Foot' etch, possibly it had the former. The knives of that period, and later, weren't of the same quality as the older Rodgers knives of course, but they were still decent working patterns. The ones below are from after the acquisition of Wostenholm in the mid 1970's. They don't seem to have an etch at all.

2008-12-15-1153-43.jpg
 
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I'm just returning to this post of Chin's for a moment, showing a 1901 Thomas Turner display case in one of the Sheffield museums :)

Jack, that Thomas Turner & Co. you showed, also reminded me of that display frame of their 1901 range in the Millennium Gallery in Sheffield. I think, out of fifty pocket knives shown, there is only one 'Lambfoot' type IIRC.

View attachment 715515

View attachment 715516

Of course there could be many reasons why there is only one Lambsfoot included, but interestingly there are several Lambsfoot knives shown in the Thomas Turner catalogue from 1902 :thumbsup:

1902 TT Lambsfoot.jpg

TT 1902 (7).jpg

I'm not sure if the knife from the page which gives care and sharpening instructions is a Lambsfoot or not, perhaps younger eyes can see ;)

TT 1902 (18) - Lambsfoot.jpg
 
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I thought this image from the 1907 Army & Navy catalogue might be of interest.

1907 Emigrant's Knife.jpg

It's been hypothesized that the 'Short Beak' blade seen on a couple of knives in Smith's Key may have been a forerunner of the Lambsfoot pattern. The straight-edged blade on this knife is very similar to the 'Short Beak', but the spine and edge of the blade are not parallel as in the Lambsfoot.
 
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Thanks for posting that historical info Jack :thumbsup: ... Really interesting Thomas Turner selection of Lamb Foot knives!!

Here is the Real Lamb Foot knife I promised to contribute to this thread - this knife was previously posted in the “Silence of the Lambs Foot” thread but the photos are no longer there. By coincidence I had obtained this knife from MerryMadMonk (Al), a member of BF, at auction. Al originally posted this knife in that thread and I only realized it after searching for background of the knife on the internet. Nonetheless I am the new caretaker :)

To summarize from the background in that thread provided from Al and Jack: - This one is somewhat of a mystery maker from Sheffield as little info exists for E. Watts of Sheffield – the only Watts listed in Tweedale’s book is a John Watts and other sources indicate there was a Bingham & Watts who were Edge Tool Manufacturers of Norton, Woodseats (a suburb of Sheffield) – not sure the latter would be the maker in my opinion but of course possible… the only info found was an Edward Watt in London but only an ad for a patent on a “Burnishing Glove” in Saddlery and Harness (Vol 8, June 1898) at the address of 89 Edgware Rd, London, W. – Edward Watts was noted as a saddle and harness maker so the question is whether he retailed knives as well… Possible he was a merchant in London with his knives still made in Sheffield or on a separate note maybe there was an Edward Watts who was a small Sheffield maker not noted in the references… I can not find any further info at all on an E Watts Sheffield and I have tried multiple sources and searches.

Notably the knife would possibly be pre-1890 based on lack of an England stamp (unless it was not made for export and thus could be post-1890) and the liners and bolsters are not integrated so no doubt post-1860… But as this thread has alluded to the “Real Lamb Foot” knife may not have evolved until the 1880s-1890s. Nonetheless hard to pinpoint the date for this knife but I do believe late 1800s - early 1900s as a guess. Thanks again to all!!

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Cheers!
Lee
 
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Here is the Real Lamb Foot knife I promised to contribute to this thread - this knife was previously posted in the “Silence of the Lambs Foot” thread but the photos are no longer there. By coincidence I had obtained this knife from MerryMadMonk (Al), a member of BF, at auction. Al originally posted this knife in that thread and I only realized it after searching for background of the knife on the internet. Nonetheless I am the new caretaker :)

To summarize from the background in that thread provided from Al and Jack: - This one is somewhat of a mystery maker from Sheffield as little info exists for E. Watts of Sheffield – the only Watts listed in Tweedale’s book is a John Watts and other sources indicate there was a Bingham & Watts who were Edge Tool Manufacturers of Norton, Woodseats (a suburb of Sheffield) – not sure the latter would be the maker in my opinion but of course possible… the only info found was an Edward Watt in London but only an ad for a patent on a “Burnishing Glove” in Saddlery and Harness (Vol 8, June 1898) at the address of 89 Edgware Rd, London, W. – Edward Watts was noted as a saddle and harness maker so the question is whether he retailed knives as well… Possible he was a merchant in London with his knives still made in Sheffield or on a separate note maybe there was an Edward Watts who was a small Sheffield maker not noted in the references… I can not find any further info at all on an E Watts Sheffield and I have tried multiple sources and searches.

Notably the knife would possibly be pre-1890 based on lack of an England stamp (unless it was not made for export and thus could be post-1890) and the liners and bolsters are not integrated so no doubt post-1860… But as this thread has alluded to the “Real Lamb Foot” knife may not have evolved until the 1880s-1890s. Nonetheless hard to pinpoint the date for this knife but I do believe late 1800s - early 1900s as a guess. Thanks again to all!!









Cheers!
Lee

Thanks for showing that classic Sheffield Lambsfoot again Lee, a very attractive knife, and I like the light-coloured bone. I remember it from the other thread now. You've clearly done a lot of research, and it's always frustrating when you don't manage to nail a knife. I thought this Unity Lambsfoot had a similar form :thumbsup:

Unity Lambsfoot 1-4.JPG

Unity Lambsfoot 1-1.JPG

Unity Lambsfoot 1-2.JPG
 
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Thanks Jack :thumbsup: ... No doubt the Unity looks very similar from the placement of nail nick and rat tail bolster as well!! That Needham looks solid and sweet - a real handful as a 2 blade version - I like the pen blade along with the Lambs Foot for sure :) ... Just curious and no doubt doesn't take away from the beauty of that Needham knife but is that the original pivot pin? I often associate German made knives with darker pivot pins of steel rather than nickel silver though that is clearly a generalization as many fine German cutleries didn't use steel pins. I'm curious as I have 2 Rawson Brothers knives from Sheffield with similar darker pins so wondered if similar steel pins were used that contrasted with nickel silver bolsters on occasion in Sheffield from certain makers? I just don't see it often at all on Sheffield made knives. I always wondered whether my pivot pins on the Rawsons were original or replaced.... With all due respect I am not trying to derail this thread and only a quick question.
 
Thanks Jack :thumbsup: ... No doubt the Unity looks very similar from the placement of nail nick and rat tail bolster as well!! That Needham looks solid and sweet - a real handful as a 2 blade version - I like the pen blade along with the Lambs Foot for sure :) ... Just curious and no doubt doesn't take away from the beauty of that Needham knife but is that the original pivot pin? I often associate German made knives with darker pivot pins of steel rather than nickel silver though that is clearly a generalization as many fine German cutleries didn't use steel pins. I'm curious as I have 2 Rawson Brothers knives from Sheffield with similar darker pins so wondered if similar steel pins were used that contrasted with nickel silver bolsters on occasion in Sheffield from certain makers? I just don't see it often at all on Sheffield made knives. I always wondered whether my pivot pins on the Rawsons were original or replaced.... With all due respect I am not trying to derail this thread and only a quick question.


Thanks a lot Lee, the Needham is a real solid knife, quite heavy too. I believe it is the original pin, though it would have been buffed originally of course, and you wouldn't have been able to see it. Here's a few more, where you can see the pin, and a William Rodgers in nice condition (a gift from Charlie C) where you can't :)

Blackwell

Alfred Blackwell 3-1.JPG

Howarth

Howarth Lambsfoot 2-1.jpg

Milner

Milner Lambsfoot 2-2.jpg

William Rodgers

William Rodgers Jigged Bone Lambsfoot 1-1S.JPG
 
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