Discussion:
What are byproducts of burning alcohol?
(too old to reply)
Doc
2004-04-22 03:53:20 UTC
Permalink
If one were to use alcohol as a fuel in an internal combustion engine,
what would be the byproducts of its combustion compared to gasoline?
I've read that the byproducts would be essentially Oxygen and water
vapor. Is this correct?
Hilton Evans
2004-04-22 04:02:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doc
If one were to use alcohol as a fuel in an internal combustion engine,
what would be the byproducts of its combustion compared to gasoline?
I've read that the byproducts would be essentially Oxygen and water
vapor. Is this correct?
No.
--
Hilton Evans
-----------------------------------------------
ChemPen Chemical Structure Software
http://www.chempensoftware.com
N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
2004-04-22 04:29:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doc
If one were to use alcohol as a fuel in an internal combustion engine,
what would be the byproducts of its combustion compared to gasoline?
I've read that the byproducts would be essentially Oxygen and water
vapor. Is this correct?
Alcohol is comprised of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. Combustion typically
involves oxidation, or adding more oxygen (say from the atmosphere). The
most stable products of the combustion of alcohol would be carbon dioxide
and water. It does seem to be harder on the engine and its fuel and
exhaust systems, however.

David A. Smith
Gregory Poon
2004-04-22 04:50:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
Alcohol is comprised of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. Combustion typically
involves oxidation, or adding more oxygen (say from the atmosphere). The
most stable products of the combustion of alcohol would be carbon dioxide
and water. It does seem to be harder on the engine and its fuel and
exhaust systems, however.
Also ethanol has a burn value that is only about 75% that of gasoline, so
you need to consume more ethanol to achieve the same effect as gasoline.
--
Gregory M. K. Poon, Ph.D., R.Ph., B.Sc.Phm.
Departments of Pharmaceutical Sciences and Chemical Engineering
University of Toronto
Post by N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
Post by Doc
If one were to use alcohol as a fuel in an internal combustion engine,
what would be the byproducts of its combustion compared to gasoline?
I've read that the byproducts would be essentially Oxygen and water
vapor. Is this correct?
David A. Smith
Doc
2004-04-22 11:16:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gregory Poon
Also ethanol has a burn value that is only about 75% that of gasoline, so
you need to consume more ethanol to achieve the same effect as gasoline.
Understood, but my query right now is strictly to determine what would
be coming out the exhaust manifold, as compared to what comes out with
combusted gasoline.

Btw, an ICE will in fact run on alcohol given the appropriate intake
system and timing tweaks.
Gregory Poon
2004-04-22 13:13:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doc
Understood, but my query right now is strictly to determine what would
be coming out the exhaust manifold, as compared to what comes out with
combusted gasoline.
Complete combustion would yield H2O and CO2 (the final products of complete
oxidation of any hydrocarbons). But burning ethanol would produce less CO2
than the same amount of gasoline.

It's only a matter of time before industrial ethanol becomes economically
competitive against gasoline and we'll all be running on blends (or maybe
even neat ethanol like Brazil did!)
Post by Doc
Post by Gregory Poon
Also ethanol has a burn value that is only about 75% that of gasoline, so
you need to consume more ethanol to achieve the same effect as gasoline.
Btw, an ICE will in fact run on alcohol given the appropriate intake
system and timing tweaks.
David Naugler
2004-04-23 22:34:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gregory Poon
Post by Doc
Understood, but my query right now is strictly to determine what would
be coming out the exhaust manifold, as compared to what comes out with
combusted gasoline.
The process of combustion within an ICE produces CO2 and H20 (and CO
in a lean mixture), in the presence of unused air, at a very high
temperature and pressure. At very high temperatures and pressures, N2,
CO2 and H2O undergo further interesting chemistry until the exhaust
gas temperature drops to the point where no more chemistry happens.
Depending on compression ratio, fuel/air mixing ratios (lean or rich),
spark efficiencies, and combustion temperature and other parameters,
various amounts of CO2, CO, H2O, NO, NO2, partial combustion products
(and many less important products) will be discharged at the exhaust
port.

Message: the fuel burnt is less important than the combustion
proccess, in regards to combustion products.

The scientifically inclined may wish to perform a simple experiment to
demonstrate this rule. Drop some methanol down a sink drain, followed
by a match. A little bit of subdued combustion occurs in the sink
drain. Note the extremely offensive smell of formaldehyde, CH2O, due
to the incomplete combustion of methanol.
Post by Gregory Poon
Complete combustion would yield H2O and CO2 (the final products of complete
oxidation of any hydrocarbons). But burning ethanol would produce less CO2
than the same amount of gasoline.
False. Ethanol has lower fuel value than gasoline so burning an
equivalent amount of ethanol will produce more CO2 than gasoline. (See
below.)
Post by Gregory Poon
It's only a matter of time before industrial ethanol becomes economically
competitive against gasoline and we'll all be running on blends (or maybe
even neat ethanol like Brazil did!)
Industrial ethanol is made by the hydration of ethylene which is made
from ethane which is a component of natural gas. Technically, a better
use of the fuel value of natural gas is to use it directly as fuel.
Economic efficiency is tied to technical efficiency. In the absence of
technical efficiency, economic efficiency is merely a delusion.

The ethanol that is currently blended with gasoline is not industrial
ethanol, it is grain alcohol. Grain alcohol is produced by farmers who
drive huge gas guzzly farm trackers. (Technical efficiency, negative;
economic efficiency, hugely negative; profit for farmers, hugely
positive.)

Ethanol may have some economic and technical value as an antiknock
additive when blended with low octane gasoline. However, only the use
of industrial ethanol makes any economic sense for this purpose.

===> Insert usual counter-argument from 'green' lobby here.
Post by Gregory Poon
Post by Doc
Post by Gregory Poon
Also ethanol has a burn value that is only about 75% that of gasoline,
so
Post by Doc
Post by Gregory Poon
you need to consume more ethanol to achieve the same effect as gasoline.
Gregory Poon
2004-04-24 17:29:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Naugler
Industrial ethanol is made by the hydration of ethylene which is made
from ethane which is a component of natural gas. Technically, a better
use of the fuel value of natural gas is to use it directly as fuel.
Economic efficiency is tied to technical efficiency. In the absence of
technical efficiency, economic efficiency is merely a delusion.
The ethanol that is currently blended with gasoline is not industrial
ethanol, it is grain alcohol. Grain alcohol is produced by farmers who
drive huge gas guzzly farm trackers. (Technical efficiency, negative;
economic efficiency, hugely negative; profit for farmers, hugely
positive.)
Production from ethanol from biomass is becoming more and more "technically
efficient" (e.g., more active enzymes to break down cellulose, cheaper and
more effective pretreatment techniques) and will become economically
competitive against gasoline in the foreseeable future. There was a paper
in Nature in the mid-1990's the projected the cost of producing
biomass-derived ethanol would drop to the same as the price of oil around
2005. Obviously it doesn't look like we'd make it but perhaps give it
another 10 to 15 years?
Post by David Naugler
Post by Gregory Poon
Complete combustion would yield H2O and CO2 (the final products of complete
oxidation of any hydrocarbons). But burning ethanol would produce less CO2
than the same amount of gasoline.
False. Ethanol has lower fuel value than gasoline so burning an
equivalent amount of ethanol will produce more CO2 than gasoline. (See
below.)
Would you buy the argument that using ethanol is more greenhouse-friendly
because the cycle of crops used to produce the fuel will remove at least as
much CO2 from the atmosphere as would be produced by burning the ethanol?
--
Gregory M. K. Poon, Ph.D., R.Ph., B.Sc.Phm.
Departments of Pharmaceutical Sciences and Chemical Engineering
University of Toronto
Post by David Naugler
Post by Gregory Poon
Post by Doc
Understood, but my query right now is strictly to determine what would
be coming out the exhaust manifold, as compared to what comes out with
combusted gasoline.
The process of combustion within an ICE produces CO2 and H20 (and CO
in a lean mixture), in the presence of unused air, at a very high
temperature and pressure. At very high temperatures and pressures, N2,
CO2 and H2O undergo further interesting chemistry until the exhaust
gas temperature drops to the point where no more chemistry happens.
Depending on compression ratio, fuel/air mixing ratios (lean or rich),
spark efficiencies, and combustion temperature and other parameters,
various amounts of CO2, CO, H2O, NO, NO2, partial combustion products
(and many less important products) will be discharged at the exhaust
port.
Message: the fuel burnt is less important than the combustion
proccess, in regards to combustion products.
The scientifically inclined may wish to perform a simple experiment to
demonstrate this rule. Drop some methanol down a sink drain, followed
by a match. A little bit of subdued combustion occurs in the sink
drain. Note the extremely offensive smell of formaldehyde, CH2O, due
to the incomplete combustion of methanol.
Post by Gregory Poon
It's only a matter of time before industrial ethanol becomes
economically
Post by David Naugler
Post by Gregory Poon
competitive against gasoline and we'll all be running on blends (or maybe
even neat ethanol like Brazil did!)
Industrial ethanol is made by the hydration of ethylene which is made
from ethane which is a component of natural gas. Technically, a better
use of the fuel value of natural gas is to use it directly as fuel.
Economic efficiency is tied to technical efficiency. In the absence of
technical efficiency, economic efficiency is merely a delusion.
The ethanol that is currently blended with gasoline is not industrial
ethanol, it is grain alcohol. Grain alcohol is produced by farmers who
drive huge gas guzzly farm trackers. (Technical efficiency, negative;
economic efficiency, hugely negative; profit for farmers, hugely
positive.)
Ethanol may have some economic and technical value as an antiknock
additive when blended with low octane gasoline. However, only the use
of industrial ethanol makes any economic sense for this purpose.
===> Insert usual counter-argument from 'green' lobby here.
Post by Gregory Poon
Post by Doc
Post by Gregory Poon
Also ethanol has a burn value that is only about 75% that of gasoline,
so
Post by Doc
Post by Gregory Poon
you need to consume more ethanol to achieve the same effect as gasoline.
Steve Turner
2004-04-22 22:41:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doc
Understood, but my query right now is strictly to determine what would
be coming out the exhaust manifold, as compared to what comes out with
combusted gasoline.
To a first approximation it would be the same as for gasoline -- i.e.,
carbon dioxide and water vapor. Those are the nominal products of
combustion of hydrocarbons (gasoline) or simple alcohols (such as
ethanol).

Secondary products of combustion are things like sulfur dioxide (from
sulfur-containing contaminants in gasoline, for e.g.), nitrogen oxides
(from nitrogen containing contaminants or oxidation of a portion of
the N2 in the intake air), hydrocarbons (from incomplete combustion of
the fuel), etc etc etc. Much of this depends on the engine specifics
like compression ratio, cam angles, ignition timing [........] and is
therefore highly variable.

Steve Turner
bob
2004-04-22 13:51:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
Post by N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
Alcohol is comprised of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. Combustion
typically
Post by N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)
involves oxidation, or adding more oxygen (say from the atmosphere). The
most stable products of the combustion of alcohol would be carbon dioxide
and water. It does seem to be harder on the engine and its fuel and
exhaust systems, however.
Also ethanol has a burn value that is only about 75% that of gasoline, so
you need to consume more ethanol to achieve the same effect as gasoline.
Seems to me that gasoline consumption could be hazardous to one's life.
Barry
2004-04-22 04:39:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doc
If one were to use alcohol as a fuel in an internal combustion engine,
what would be the byproducts of its combustion compared to gasoline?
I've read that the byproducts would be essentially Oxygen and water
vapor. Is this correct?
No. You're probably thinking of hydrogen as fuel.

Barry Hunt
Hilton Evans
2004-04-22 09:44:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry
Post by Doc
If one were to use alcohol as a fuel in an internal combustion engine,
what would be the byproducts of its combustion compared to gasoline?
I've read that the byproducts would be essentially Oxygen and water
vapor. Is this correct?
No. You're probably thinking of hydrogen as fuel.
I don't think oxygen is a byproduct of hydrogen
combustion. ;-)
--
Hilton Evans
-----------------------------------------------
ChemPen Chemical Structure Software
http://www.chempensoftware.com
Mike Darrett
2004-04-22 15:41:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Doc
If one were to use alcohol as a fuel in an internal combustion engine,
what would be the byproducts of its combustion compared to gasoline?
I've read that the byproducts would be essentially Oxygen and water
vapor. Is this correct?
Water vapor, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides,
formaldehyde, acetaldehyde...

http://www.ott.doe.gov/otu/field_ops/pdfs/sae_e85.pdf
Hilton Evans
2004-04-22 20:54:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Darrett
Post by Doc
If one were to use alcohol as a fuel in an internal combustion engine,
what would be the byproducts of its combustion compared to gasoline?
I've read that the byproducts would be essentially Oxygen and water
vapor. Is this correct?
Water vapor, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides,
formaldehyde, acetaldehyde...
Nitrogen oxides? I doubt it. Methinks
they are products of nitrogen oxidation.
--
Hilton Evans
-----------------------------------------------
ChemPen Chemical Structure Software
http://www.chempensoftware.com
R Molony
2004-04-24 20:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Before you promote alcohol I sugests you look at what happens when you
scratch a piece of alumnium which is imersed in alcohol.
The scratching breaks the oxide film. The aluminium just the fizzes
away merrily dissolving to produce the alkoxide.
This would obviously be a disincentive for the use of alcohol.
Bob M
budullewraagh
2004-04-28 01:38:18 UTC
Permalink
also, let us remember that the energy stored in the bonds of alcohols
isn't great compared to hydrocarbon chains, plus you'd have quite a
difficult time trying to get rapid gas expansion with alcohols.
bottom line, it doesn't work



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Gregory Poon
2004-04-29 15:08:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by budullewraagh
also, let us remember that the energy stored in the bonds of alcohols
isn't great compared to hydrocarbon chains, plus you'd have quite a
difficult time trying to get rapid gas expansion with alcohols.
bottom line, it doesn't work
That's a bit of a harsh judgement, don't you think? There were perfectly
functional cars in Brazil in the 70's running on neat ethanol derived from
sugar beets.
--
Gregory M. K. Poon, Ph.D., R.Ph., B.Sc.Phm.
Departments of Pharmaceutical Sciences and Chemical Engineering
University of Toronto
Post by budullewraagh
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Ron Jones
2004-04-30 19:41:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gregory Poon
Post by budullewraagh
also, let us remember that the energy stored in the bonds of alcohols
isn't great compared to hydrocarbon chains, plus you'd have quite a
difficult time trying to get rapid gas expansion with alcohols.
bottom line, it doesn't work
That's a bit of a harsh judgement, don't you think? There were
perfectly functional cars in Brazil in the 70's running on neat
ethanol derived from sugar beets.
You can probably run cars on any fuel you like, so long as you change the
engine parameters to suit. ISTR I was driving simple, no environmental
controls, low compression, side valve engines in the 70s - run on almost
anything, in fact I had a friend who used to ride his BSA M21 (600cc m/c,
single cylinder, side valve, compression ration 6:1 - IIRC) on 50:50
petrol:paraffin (kerosene to you guys over the pond) as a cost cutting
exercise (no duty on paraffin, but still illegal to use in in road
vehicles) - went just fine, although you could have fried several eggs on
the barrels when he stopped...., and not to mention the smell of a paraffin
heater going down the road.... I suspect with today's well tuned, minimum
environmental impact gas emission engines, only a certain narrow range of
fuels will do.
--
--
Ron Jones

Don't repeat history, see unreported near misses in chemical lab/plant
at http://www.crhf.org.uk
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