Guardians of The Lambsfoot!
- Thread starter Jack Black
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Jack, that Unity 'Real Lamb Foot' is one of those knives that I find just sublime.
Thanks for showing it again.
As a dyed-in-the-wool, ardent trade unionist, the Unity Co-op is one of the companies I have been fascinated to read about in your previous posts, and one of the many Sheffield historical narratives I have determined to unravel further and learn more about when I visit.
I love that contoured three dimensional jigging pattern.
Greg, that was a great post, my friend, and I agree, we may not find definitive reference points to conclude our enquiries, but as Tom Waits said 'if it's worth the going, it's worth the ride.'
I think you may be right: the rise and subsequent uptake and ubiquity of the Lambsfoot (at least in the North of England) may have taken place in less than a century.
The familiarity of the ancient sheepsfoot pattern would certainly have paved the way...
One thing I have found frustrating in my efforts to understand and disentangle the threads of cutlery history (but so enjoyable to discuss with like minded friends here) is how we tend to have a 'preserved canon' of knife patterns and blade shapes in our Traditional reference sphere now.
One view I'm leaning towards, in the light of Herder's and other posts, is that in the past, the patterns we now know, were subject to much more evolution and gradual variation, based on the feedback of a whole galaxy of users throughout Britain and its' colonies.
I may be heading out on a limb here, but I can certainly imagine the following scenes, or similar ones may have taken place:
One of the apprentice boys coming out on the grinding floor, approaches the head cutler and says 'the Old Man wants to see you.'
The head working Cutler - the 'Number One Hammer' - rises from a horsing, where he had been demonstrating a grinding technique to one of the apprentices, disengages the trow, passes the workpiece in its timber jig back to the apprentice, and walks up the stairs to the Office, brushing off grinding slurry and forge-dust from his jacket. Before he knocks on the door he removes his cap, clears his throat, quietly hawking up some clots of dark, bloody phlegm into his handkerchief, and takes a deep breath.
The Old Man, whose family name is stamped on thousands of gross of pieces, a river of pocketknives and other edged tools flowing from His works to the farthest reaches of Africa, India, Australia, New Zealand and the New World looks up briefly, waves to a pile of correspondence on his mahogany desk and says 'Mr Baker of Sydney and the other Australian agents are saying they need more of a long, trailing point for skinning those plaguey rabbits on those cheap Jacks we do. They're inundated with the vermin, it seems. Be a good fellow and see if you can make me up some new samples I can send them,'
Or he may have said 'Look, we're selling cartloads of those 292 models in East Africa at the moment with that new blade shape we thought we'd try; why don't you see if you can't fit that blade onto models 175 and 138 and we'll see how they do.'
Or - 'I saw Mr Sowerby from the Kew Botanical Gardens down at the club in London and he said all the apprentices are instructed to use a 238 model now, but the tips are breaking off. I've instructed Mr Williams to send samples of the 239 out to them. I think the stronger tip may also do well in Auckland, Sydney, New Brunswick and Fort Vancouver. Can you let the fellows over in Sheaf Island know they'll be changing over to doing that model until the end of next week. Here's the work order...'
Examining the salvaged contents of British shipwrecks from the late 19th century here, one thing I have been struck by, is how, as well as the 'tried and true' Sheffield patterns, there were also indubitably, cutlery trends and fashions as with everything else.
For example, the recovered salvage of the Loch Ard and the SS Schomberg wrecked on the west coast of Victoria here between 1855 and 1878, definitely feature a preponderance of certain patterns like Congress, Senator and Swell-center pen knives.
I had been hesitant to post these images from the 1910 John Nowill and Sons catalogue, as they seem 'neither fish nor fowl' regarding our Sheepsfoot-Lambsfoot-Wharncliffe-Ettrick continuum, but in light of our discussions, it may be apt to show them as an example of how our current nomenclature did not apply 'back in the day', and patterns simply evolved and adapted according to user feedback and sales figures.
They certainly have the spine taper of the Lambsfoot, however they feature more of a curve to the point and less of an abrupt Lambsfoot 'beak', which I would associate more with a Wharncliffe pattern...
I'll be interested in what you all think.
In any case, I've been so enjoying this discussion, and the superb discursive posts that our Porch folk have been making, that I'm hesitant to gently steer it also to the direction that Will has implied, which is 'What GEC frames would be best suited to honour the Real Lambsfoot should it be resurrected on Bill's production schedule?'
What blade shapes of the past would be most worthy of reviving in a modern Real Lambsfoot? (I know our Porch stalwarts have touched on this before, but I'm interested in what our current Guardians also may think.)
Thanks for showing it again.
As a dyed-in-the-wool, ardent trade unionist, the Unity Co-op is one of the companies I have been fascinated to read about in your previous posts, and one of the many Sheffield historical narratives I have determined to unravel further and learn more about when I visit.
I love that contoured three dimensional jigging pattern.
Greg, that was a great post, my friend, and I agree, we may not find definitive reference points to conclude our enquiries, but as Tom Waits said 'if it's worth the going, it's worth the ride.'
This fascinates me. It appears that the Lambsfoot went from conception to near ubiquity in the British agrarian market relatively quickly. Perhaps in less than 100 years. Maybe less?
I could be wrong, but I assume that, during the time of the Lambsfoot's spread in popularity, most farmers limited their pocket knife purchases to replacements for their worn-out knives or as the first knife for a child as they came of age to do real work on the farm. So, it's not like the new Taylor's Eye Witness catalog for 18xx showed up in the mail one day, everyone said "oh, that looks nice", and then had one in their pocket a few weeks later.
I wonder what started the trend of opting for a Lambsfoot. Were its merits recognizable to old hands when they saw it at the general store and they decided to give it a try? Was it word of mouth and evangelism from neighbors that had been early adopters? Was there a Taylor's Eye Witness salesman making the rounds extolling the new pattern? All of the above? Something else entirely?
I don't know that these questions are any more answerable than when the Lambsfoot was first created, but I'm finding them fun to ponder.
I think you may be right: the rise and subsequent uptake and ubiquity of the Lambsfoot (at least in the North of England) may have taken place in less than a century.
The familiarity of the ancient sheepsfoot pattern would certainly have paved the way...
One thing I have found frustrating in my efforts to understand and disentangle the threads of cutlery history (but so enjoyable to discuss with like minded friends here) is how we tend to have a 'preserved canon' of knife patterns and blade shapes in our Traditional reference sphere now.
One view I'm leaning towards, in the light of Herder's and other posts, is that in the past, the patterns we now know, were subject to much more evolution and gradual variation, based on the feedback of a whole galaxy of users throughout Britain and its' colonies.
I may be heading out on a limb here, but I can certainly imagine the following scenes, or similar ones may have taken place:
One of the apprentice boys coming out on the grinding floor, approaches the head cutler and says 'the Old Man wants to see you.'
The head working Cutler - the 'Number One Hammer' - rises from a horsing, where he had been demonstrating a grinding technique to one of the apprentices, disengages the trow, passes the workpiece in its timber jig back to the apprentice, and walks up the stairs to the Office, brushing off grinding slurry and forge-dust from his jacket. Before he knocks on the door he removes his cap, clears his throat, quietly hawking up some clots of dark, bloody phlegm into his handkerchief, and takes a deep breath.
The Old Man, whose family name is stamped on thousands of gross of pieces, a river of pocketknives and other edged tools flowing from His works to the farthest reaches of Africa, India, Australia, New Zealand and the New World looks up briefly, waves to a pile of correspondence on his mahogany desk and says 'Mr Baker of Sydney and the other Australian agents are saying they need more of a long, trailing point for skinning those plaguey rabbits on those cheap Jacks we do. They're inundated with the vermin, it seems. Be a good fellow and see if you can make me up some new samples I can send them,'
Or he may have said 'Look, we're selling cartloads of those 292 models in East Africa at the moment with that new blade shape we thought we'd try; why don't you see if you can't fit that blade onto models 175 and 138 and we'll see how they do.'
Or - 'I saw Mr Sowerby from the Kew Botanical Gardens down at the club in London and he said all the apprentices are instructed to use a 238 model now, but the tips are breaking off. I've instructed Mr Williams to send samples of the 239 out to them. I think the stronger tip may also do well in Auckland, Sydney, New Brunswick and Fort Vancouver. Can you let the fellows over in Sheaf Island know they'll be changing over to doing that model until the end of next week. Here's the work order...'
Examining the salvaged contents of British shipwrecks from the late 19th century here, one thing I have been struck by, is how, as well as the 'tried and true' Sheffield patterns, there were also indubitably, cutlery trends and fashions as with everything else.
For example, the recovered salvage of the Loch Ard and the SS Schomberg wrecked on the west coast of Victoria here between 1855 and 1878, definitely feature a preponderance of certain patterns like Congress, Senator and Swell-center pen knives.
I had been hesitant to post these images from the 1910 John Nowill and Sons catalogue, as they seem 'neither fish nor fowl' regarding our Sheepsfoot-Lambsfoot-Wharncliffe-Ettrick continuum, but in light of our discussions, it may be apt to show them as an example of how our current nomenclature did not apply 'back in the day', and patterns simply evolved and adapted according to user feedback and sales figures.
They certainly have the spine taper of the Lambsfoot, however they feature more of a curve to the point and less of an abrupt Lambsfoot 'beak', which I would associate more with a Wharncliffe pattern...
I'll be interested in what you all think.
In any case, I've been so enjoying this discussion, and the superb discursive posts that our Porch folk have been making, that I'm hesitant to gently steer it also to the direction that Will has implied, which is 'What GEC frames would be best suited to honour the Real Lambsfoot should it be resurrected on Bill's production schedule?'
These two interpretations really captivate me, the sleekness and yet simplicity. The bolsters are particularly impressive, small and very nicely worked.
Quality copies of these as an SFO would generate adulation......
What blade shapes of the past would be most worthy of reviving in a modern Real Lambsfoot? (I know our Porch stalwarts have touched on this before, but I'm interested in what our current Guardians also may think.)
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Nice to see this thread get so busy
Yes, it's quite incredible isn't it? From the numerous worn and heavily worn examples I find, these knives were clearly used hard too. One might think that someone who expected to use a knife that hard might purchase a Sheepsfoot over a Lambsfoot, knowing that it would soon end up as a Lambsfoot, (and eventually a spike). Yet, the Lambsfoot seems to have been quickly taken up by those who really would use a knife. In terms of the knives I find on market stalls, there is a split between penknives and Lambsfoot patterns, the condition of the penknives varies, but they are sometimes unused, and are generally in good condition. The Lambsfoot knives, however, have often seen considerable use, and I find far more of them than any other working pattern. I would think that I find at least five Lambsfoot knives to every Sheepsfoot.
Thank you my friend :thumbup:
Good points, again :thumbup: I think its still the case that Sheffield cutlers are vague when it comes to naming patterns, and often they name them incorrectly.
Definitely! :thumbup:
Thanks Chin, I collect the Unity items for the same reason. Apparently the mark was used by several co-operative ventures. Sheffield certainly has some interesting trade union history, and I'll look forward to talking more about it with you :thumbup:
I loved your sketch! It may not be far from the truth though, and there was certainly a long period when patterns were subject to a good deal of experimentation and change. Your perspective in terms of the wrecked ships is fascinating, and certainly knives were subject to fashion as you say. It is obvious that the Sheffield cutlers specifically named and marketed patterns at the the US market, and the same was also the case with Australia. I guess that they would prefer to sell an expensive Senator or Congress to a relatively affluent individual than a lowly Lambsfoot or Sheepsfoot to a farmer, particularly since the cost of export would be much the same. The two market were obviously different though, and I'm sure they sold far more inexpensive Bunny Knives in Australia than they did pearl-handled Lobsters. I think you are right to associate those two knives with the Wharncliffe pattern, it is not just the blade shape, but the frame that makes them thus. The one on the left is a Wharncliffe Knife, and the one on the right is certainly a variant I think :thumbup:
Great discussion folks, really enjoying it :thumbup:
This fascinates me. It appears that the Lambsfoot went from conception to near ubiquity in the British agrarian market relatively quickly. Perhaps in less than 100 years. Maybe less?
I could be wrong, but I assume that, during the time of the Lambsfoot's spread in popularity, most farmers limited their pocket knife purchases to replacements for their worn-out knives or as the first knife for a child as they came of age to do real work on the farm. So, it's not like the new Taylor's Eye Witness catalog for 18xx showed up in the mail one day, everyone said "oh, that looks nice", and then had one in their pocket a few weeks later.
I wonder what started the trend of opting for a Lambsfoot. Were its merits recognizable to old hands when they saw it at the general store and they decided to give it a try? Was it word of mouth and evangelism from neighbors that had been early adopters? Was there a Taylor's Eye Witness salesman making the rounds extolling the new pattern? All of the above? Something else entirely?
I don't know that these questions are any more answerable than when the Lambsfoot was first created, but I'm finding them fun to ponder.
Yes, it's quite incredible isn't it? From the numerous worn and heavily worn examples I find, these knives were clearly used hard too. One might think that someone who expected to use a knife that hard might purchase a Sheepsfoot over a Lambsfoot, knowing that it would soon end up as a Lambsfoot, (and eventually a spike). Yet, the Lambsfoot seems to have been quickly taken up by those who really would use a knife. In terms of the knives I find on market stalls, there is a split between penknives and Lambsfoot patterns, the condition of the penknives varies, but they are sometimes unused, and are generally in good condition. The Lambsfoot knives, however, have often seen considerable use, and I find far more of them than any other working pattern. I would think that I find at least five Lambsfoot knives to every Sheepsfoot.
Thank you my friend
:thumbup:Good points and observations. One problem in figuring out the history or purpose with these old knives is that seldom did a manufacturer list the specific name or purpose of the knife in an old catalog. I think Jack, Cambertree, or others may have mentioned this before, but it is certainly the case. Even the big boys like Wostenholm and Joseph Rodgers were vague on descriptions and often called their knives by generic names like "two blade" or "hunting knife". It does seem that certain knives or blade types had specific tasks originally, but later were adopted to other uses and even called by other names. A good example would be pruning knives which were also later used as and called "linoleum", and "Plumbers" knives. As far as the Lambs foot model go, while it certainly appears that they were intended for trimming lambs feet originally, they were also found on Scotch Sheperds knives, Tackers knives, and Congress pattern models. I guess it's up to all of us to sort out the interesting puzzles.
Good points, again :thumbup: I think its still the case that Sheffield cutlers are vague when it comes to naming patterns, and often they name them incorrectly.
It sure does, but also makes for an interesting adventure.
Definitely!
:thumbup:Jack, that Unity 'Real Lamb Foot' is one of those knives that I find just sublime.
Thanks for showing it again.
As a dyed-in-the-wool, ardent trade unionist - the Unity Co-op is one of the companies I have been fascinated to read about in your previous posts, and one of the myriad of Sheffield historical narratives I have determined to unravel further and learn more about when I visit.
I love that contoured three dimensional jigging pattern.
Greg, that was a great post, my friend, and I agree, we may not find definitive reference points to conclude our enquiries, but as Tom Waits said 'if it's worth the going, it's worth the ride.'
I think you may be right: the rise and subsequent uptake and ubiquity of the Lambsfoot (at least in the North of England) may have taken place in less than a century.
The familiarity of the ancient sheepsfoot pattern would certainly have paved the way...
One thing I have found frustrating in my efforts to understand and disentangle the threads of cutlery history (but so enjoyable to discuss with like minded friends here) is how we tend to have a 'preserved canon' of knife patterns and blade shapes in our Traditional reference sphere now.
One view I'm leaning towards, in the light of Herder's and other posts, is that in the past, the patterns we now know, were subject to much more evolution and gradual variation, based on the feedback of a whole galaxy of users throughout Britain and its' colonies.
I may be heading out on a limb here, but I can certainly imagine the following scenes, or similar ones may have taken place:
One of the working cutlers or apprentice boys coming out on the shop floor approaches the Master Cutler or Foreman and says 'the Old Man wants to see you.'
The Master Cutler gets up and disengages his trow, or leaves whatever task he may have been attending to and walks up the stairs to the Office, brushing off grinding slurry or forge-dust from his jacket. Before he knocks on the door he removes his cap, clears his throat, hawking up some clots of bloody phlegm into his handkerchief, and takes a deep breath.
The Old Man, whose family name is stamped on thousands of gross of pieces sent out weekly from His works to Africa, Australia, New Zealand and the New World looks up briefly and waves to a pile of correspondence on his mahogany desk and says 'the Australian Distributors are saying they need more of a trailing point for skinning those bloody rabbits they're plagued by on those cheap Jacks we do. Be a good fellow and see if you can make me up some new samples I can send them,'
Or he may have said 'Look, we're selling cartloads of those 294 models in East Africa at the moment with that new blade shape we thought we'd try; why don't you see if you can't fit that blade onto models 175 and 138 and we'll see how they do.'
Or - 'I saw Mr Sowerby from the Kew Botanical Gardens down at the club in London and he said all the apprentices are instructed to use a 238 model now, but the tips are breaking off. I've instructed Mr Williams to send samples of the 239 out to them. I think the stronger tip may also do well in Auckland, Sydney, New Brunswick and Fort Vancouver. Can you let the fellows know we'll be changing over to doing that model until the end of next week.'
Examining the salvaged contents of British shipwrecks from the late 19th century here, one thing I have been struck by, is how, as well as the 'tried and true' Sheffield patterns, there were also indubitably, cutlery trends and fashions as with everything else.
For example, the recovered salvage of the Loch Ard and the SS Schomberg wrecked on the West Coast of Victoria here between 1855 and 1878, definitely feature a preponderance of certain patterns like Congress, Senator and Swell-center pen knives.
I had been hesitant to post these images from the 1910 John Nowill and Sons catalogue, as they seem 'neither fish nor fowl' regarding our Sheepsfoot-Lambsfoot-Wharncliffe-Ettrick continuum, but in light of our discussions, it may be apt to show them as an example of how our current nomenclature did not apply 'back in the day', and patterns simply evolved and adapted according to user feedback and sales figures.
They certainly have the spine taper of the Lambsfoot, however they feature more of a curve to the point and less of an abrupt Lambsfoot 'beak', which I would associate more with a Wharncliffe pattern...
I'll be interested in what you all think.
In any case, I've been so enjoying this discussion, and the superb discursive posts that our Porch folk have been making, that I'm hesitant to gently steer it also to the direction that Will has implied, which is 'What GEC frames would best suited to honour the Real Lambsfoot should it be resurrected on Bill's production schedule?'
What blade shapes of the past would be most worthy of reviving in a modern Real Lambsfoot? (I know our Porch stalwarts have touched on this before, but I'm interested in what our current Guardians also may think.)
Thanks Chin, I collect the Unity items for the same reason. Apparently the mark was used by several co-operative ventures. Sheffield certainly has some interesting trade union history, and I'll look forward to talking more about it with you :thumbup:
I loved your sketch!
It may not be far from the truth though, and there was certainly a long period when patterns were subject to a good deal of experimentation and change. Your perspective in terms of the wrecked ships is fascinating, and certainly knives were subject to fashion as you say. It is obvious that the Sheffield cutlers specifically named and marketed patterns at the the US market, and the same was also the case with Australia. I guess that they would prefer to sell an expensive Senator or Congress to a relatively affluent individual than a lowly Lambsfoot or Sheepsfoot to a farmer, particularly since the cost of export would be much the same. The two market were obviously different though, and I'm sure they sold far more inexpensive Bunny Knives in Australia than they did pearl-handled Lobsters. I think you are right to associate those two knives with the Wharncliffe pattern, it is not just the blade shape, but the frame that makes them thus. The one on the left is a Wharncliffe Knife, and the one on the right is certainly a variant I think :thumbup:Great discussion folks, really enjoying it :thumbup:
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Man, I know nothing about the current discussion, but it's certainly enjoyable and informative! :thumbup::thumbup: Thanks to all for their thought-provoking contributions. :thumbup:
Thanks!
- GT
:thumbup: Thanks to all for their thought-provoking contributions. :thumbup:Jack, can you please elaborate on what's "vague" or "incorrect" about using the "Senator" name for your pictured knife? I'm not exactly sure what the defining characteristics of the senator pattern are.A case in point being the A.Wright "Senator" I'm carrying today!
Thanks!- GT
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Jack, can you please elaborate on what's "vague" or "incorrect" about using the "Senator" name for your pictured knife? I'm not exactly sure what the defining characteristics of the senator pattern are.
The Senator is an Equal-end Penknife pattern GT. Unaware of this, when Wright's were looking for a name for their fancy Lambsfoot, they called it a Senator, at the suggestion of one of their retailers, thinking it sounded like a good name.
Jack, that Unity 'Real Lamb Foot' is one of those knives that I find just sublime.
Thanks for showing it again.
As a dyed-in-the-wool, ardent trade unionist - the Unity Co-op is one of the companies I have been fascinated to read about in your previous posts, and one of the myriad of Sheffield historical narratives I have determined to unravel further and learn more about when I visit.
I love that contoured three dimensional jigging pattern.
Greg, that was a great post, my friend, and I agree, we may not find definitive reference points to conclude our enquiries, but as Tom Waits said 'if it's worth the going, it's worth the ride.'
I think you may be right: the rise and subsequent uptake and ubiquity of the Lambsfoot (at least in the North of England) may have taken place in less than a century.
The familiarity of the ancient sheepsfoot pattern would certainly have paved the way...
One thing I have found frustrating in my efforts to understand and disentangle the threads of cutlery history (but so enjoyable to discuss with like minded friends here) is how we tend to have a 'preserved canon' of knife patterns and blade shapes in our Traditional reference sphere now.
One view I'm leaning towards, in the light of Herder's and other posts, is that in the past, the patterns we now know, were subject to much more evolution and gradual variation, based on the feedback of a whole galaxy of users throughout Britain and its' colonies.
I may be heading out on a limb here, but I can certainly imagine the following scenes, or similar ones may have taken place:
One of the working cutlers or apprentice boys coming out on the shop floor approaches the Master Cutler or Foreman and says 'the Old Man wants to see you.'
The Master Cutler gets up and disengages his trow, or leaves whatever task he may have been attending to and walks up the stairs to the Office, brushing off grinding slurry or forge-dust from his jacket. Before he knocks on the door he removes his cap, clears his throat, hawking up some clots of bloody phlegm into his handkerchief, and takes a deep breath.
The Old Man, whose family name is stamped on thousands of gross of pieces sent out weekly from His works to Africa, India, Australia, New Zealand and the New World looks up briefly and waves to a pile of correspondence on his mahogany desk and says 'the Australian Distributors are saying they need more of a trailing point for skinning those bloody rabbits they're plagued by on those cheap Jacks we do. Be a good fellow and see if you can make me up some new samples I can send them,'
Or he may have said 'Look, we're selling cartloads of those 294 models in East Africa at the moment with that new blade shape we thought we'd try; why don't you see if you can't fit that blade onto models 175 and 138 and we'll see how they do.'
Or - 'I saw Mr Sowerby from the Kew Botanical Gardens down at the club in London and he said all the apprentices are instructed to use a 238 model now, but the tips are breaking off. I've instructed Mr Williams to send samples of the 239 out to them. I think the stronger tip may also do well in Auckland, Sydney, New Brunswick and Fort Vancouver. Can you let the fellows know we'll be changing over to doing that model until the end of next week.'
Examining the salvaged contents of British shipwrecks from the late 19th century here, one thing I have been struck by, is how, as well as the 'tried and true' Sheffield patterns, there were also indubitably, cutlery trends and fashions as with everything else.
For example, the recovered salvage of the Loch Ard and the SS Schomberg wrecked on the West Coast of Victoria here between 1855 and 1878, definitely feature a preponderance of certain patterns like Congress, Senator and Swell-center pen knives.
I had been hesitant to post these images from the 1910 John Nowill and Sons catalogue, as they seem 'neither fish nor fowl' regarding our Sheepsfoot-Lambsfoot-Wharncliffe-Ettrick continuum, but in light of our discussions, it may be apt to show them as an example of how our current nomenclature did not apply 'back in the day', and patterns simply evolved and adapted according to user feedback and sales figures.
They certainly have the spine taper of the Lambsfoot, however they feature more of a curve to the point and less of an abrupt Lambsfoot 'beak', which I would associate more with a Wharncliffe pattern...
I'll be interested in what you all think.
In any case, I've been so enjoying this discussion, and the superb discursive posts that our Porch folk have been making, that I'm hesitant to gently steer it also to the direction that Will has implied, which is 'What GEC frames would be best suited to honour the Real Lambsfoot should it be resurrected on Bill's production schedule?'
What blade shapes of the past would be most worthy of reviving in a modern Real Lambsfoot? (I know our Porch stalwarts have touched on this before, but I'm interested in what our current Guardians also may think.)
Well presented Cambertree, and I agree that these blades would have been "tried and tested" in different handles and for different purposes. These were of course businesses with an end result to satisfy a customer and add another dollar to the bank account.
Nice picture of the two wharncliffe models which certainly have blades with composite features.
View attachment 814742
Jack, I've come across another catalog cut which appears quite revealing. This is a Wostenholm catalog from c. 1950 which shows two Lamb foot models together except the top one is stamped "Lamb Foot" while the bottom knife is stamped "Real Lamb Foot Knife". I take this to mean that Wostenholm is acknowledging that some Lamb Foot blades had slowly evolved and changed over time. But, by showing two slightly different models, they could offer and label one with a true and accurate Lamb Foot shaped blade.
Nice to see this thread get so busy
Yes, it's quite incredible isn't it? From the numerous worn and heavily worn examples I find, these knives were clearly used hard too. One might think that someone who expected to use a knife that hard might purchase a Sheepsfoot over a Lambsfoot, knowing that it would soon end up as a Lambsfoot, (and eventually a spike). Yet, the Lambsfoot seems to have been quickly taken up by those who really would use a knife. In terms of the knives I find on market stalls, there is a split between penknives and Lambsfoot patterns, the condition of the penknives varies, but they are sometimes unused, and are generally in good condition. The Lambsfoot knives, however, have often seen considerable use, and I find far more of them than any other working pattern. I would think that I find at least five Lambsfoot knives to every Sheepsfoot.
Thank you my friend
Good points, again :thumbup: I think its still the case that Sheffield cutlers are vague when it comes to naming patterns, and often they name them incorrectly.
Definitely!
Thanks Chin, I collect the Unity items for the same reason. Apparently the mark was used by several co-operative ventures. Sheffield certainly has some interesting trade union history, and I'll look forward to talking more about it with you :thumbup:
I loved your sketch!
Great discussion folks, really enjoying it :thumbup:
Jack, I've come across another catalog cut which appears quite revealing. This is a Wostenholm catalog from c. 1950 which shows two Lamb foot models together except the top one is stamped "Lamb Foot" while the bottom knife is stamped "Real Lamb Foot Knife". I take this to mean that Wostenholm is acknowledging that some Lamb Foot blades had slowly evolved and changed over time. But, by showing two slightly different models, they could offer and label one with a true and accurate Lamb Foot shaped blade.
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Thanks for the explanation/elaboration, Jack. :thumbup: Was it a question of wanting to have a more specific designation for a subset of a larger category? Aren't camp/scout knives, canoes, and the aforementioned Senator all examples of equal-end penknives? Yet they are quite different patterns, and I can understand how both manufacturers and consumers might appreciate different names to help distinguish among them.
- GT
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You raise an excellent point, Chin. And, thank you for taking the time to illustrate it in the form of a story! I enjoyed reading it and imagining the scene.
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Jack, I've come across another catalog cut which appears quite revealing. This is a Wostenholm catalog from c. 1950 which shows two Lamb foot models together except the top one is stamped "Lamb Foot" while the bottom knife is stamped "Real Lamb Foot Knife". I take this to mean that Wostenholm is acknowledging that some Lamb Foot blades had slowly evolved and changed over time. But, by showing two slightly different models, they could offer and label one with a true and accurate Lamb Foot shaped blade.
Thanks for two more great catalogue pics my friend. Those are beautiful knives. Interesting theory, well worth considering I think, but I'm not sure I'd necessarily draw the same conclusion. As you know, there was a period when Sheffield cutlers prefixed just about everything with 'Real', and it may be that Wostenholm were using blade stock from different periods. Sometimes the markings can also be quite arbitrary as well, some of Wright's Lambsfoot knives have the 'Real Lambfoot' etch, and some don't, though the blades are the same. It's also worth considering that as small firms and little mesters went to the wall in post-WW2 Sheffield, their old stock, sometimes including thousands of forged blades, were acquired by the surviving firms, such as Wostenholm.
Edit - It's also always worth remembering that, even in the days of the big Sheffield cutlery factories, most of their work was bought-in from self-employed cutlers, grinders, and forgers
No problem my friend, I specifically asked Wright's about it
In answer to your other question, no, they're not, out of the knives you list, only the Senator is an equal-end penknife. It's good for manufacturers to name their patterns I think, but better if they don't confuse one pattern with another, such as calling a short-bolstered jack with a clip-point a Barlow, or a Lambsfoot a Senator. I'm afraid it's just based on ignorance in both cases.
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The recent discussion has me wanting to learn more about the history of the Sheffield cutlery industry. Any book recommendations?
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Lots Greg, but there are also some good free resources in PDF form if you search online, such as the doctoral thesis I linked to in this thread here: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...into-the-Sheffield-cutlery-industry-1870-1914
You might also find this series of threads of interest: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1229530-The-Dairy-Maids-of-Porter-Brook-(Part-1)
I'll scour my book shelf later and post up a few titles. Some reference books can be pricey, but there are also bargains to be found online too :thumbup:
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Here's a few book titles Greg, there are lots more too, and really a lot of interesting old texts, which are long out of print, can be found online. I've long wished for a 'Resources' thread in which to link to cutlery history PDFs, etc. THere's some information on Sheffield in Levine's Guide of course, as well as a great primer of cutlery patterns.
Sheffield Exhibition Knives, edited by Bill Adams, Old World Publishing, 1999.
Forging History: The Story of George Barnsley and Sons..., Pauline Bell with Colin Barnsley, 2010.
Mesters to Masters, edited by Clyde Binfield and David Hey, Oxford University Press, 1997.
Sheffields Cutlers World of 1884 AD, Compiled by Michael D Everett, MDE Publications, 1986.
Robert Fead Mosley, First Manufacturer of Stainless Knives, Anna de Lange, Portland Works, 2013.
The Cutlers of Hallamshire 1624-1699, edited by David Hey and Joan Unwin, University of Sheffield.
Back to the Grindstone: Personal Recollections of the Sheffield Cutlery Industry, Herbert Housley, Hallamshire Press, 1998.
On The Knife Edge: The Inside Story of the Sheffield Cutlery Industry, Clare Jenkins and Stephen McClarence, Sheffield Libraries and Information Service, 1989.
Penknives and other folding knives, Simon Moore, Shire Publications, 1988.
Table Knives and Forks, Simon Moore, Shire Publications, 1995.
Cutlery For The Table: A History of British Table Cutlery, Simon Moore, Hallamshire Press, 1999.
A Sheffield Heritage: An Anthology of Photographs and Words of the Cutlery Crafsmen, C.A.Turner, Sheffield University, 1979.
Stan Shaw, Master Cutler, Geoffrey Tweedale, Interleaf Publications, 1993.
Tweedales Directory of Sheffield Cutlery Manufacturers 1740-2013, Geoffrey Tweedale, 2010.
A Cut Above The Rest: The Heritage of Sheffields Blade Manufacturers, Joan Unwin and Ken Hawley, Hawley Collection Trust, 2003.
They Lived in Nether Edge, Nether Edge Local History Group, 1988.
Earning a Living: Memories of Work in and around Sheffield (2 volumes), Workers Education Association, 2008.
Sheffield Exhibition Knives, edited by Bill Adams, Old World Publishing, 1999.
Forging History: The Story of George Barnsley and Sons..., Pauline Bell with Colin Barnsley, 2010.
Mesters to Masters, edited by Clyde Binfield and David Hey, Oxford University Press, 1997.
Sheffields Cutlers World of 1884 AD, Compiled by Michael D Everett, MDE Publications, 1986.
Robert Fead Mosley, First Manufacturer of Stainless Knives, Anna de Lange, Portland Works, 2013.
The Cutlers of Hallamshire 1624-1699, edited by David Hey and Joan Unwin, University of Sheffield.
Back to the Grindstone: Personal Recollections of the Sheffield Cutlery Industry, Herbert Housley, Hallamshire Press, 1998.
On The Knife Edge: The Inside Story of the Sheffield Cutlery Industry, Clare Jenkins and Stephen McClarence, Sheffield Libraries and Information Service, 1989.
Penknives and other folding knives, Simon Moore, Shire Publications, 1988.
Table Knives and Forks, Simon Moore, Shire Publications, 1995.
Cutlery For The Table: A History of British Table Cutlery, Simon Moore, Hallamshire Press, 1999.
A Sheffield Heritage: An Anthology of Photographs and Words of the Cutlery Crafsmen, C.A.Turner, Sheffield University, 1979.
Stan Shaw, Master Cutler, Geoffrey Tweedale, Interleaf Publications, 1993.
Tweedales Directory of Sheffield Cutlery Manufacturers 1740-2013, Geoffrey Tweedale, 2010.
A Cut Above The Rest: The Heritage of Sheffields Blade Manufacturers, Joan Unwin and Ken Hawley, Hawley Collection Trust, 2003.
They Lived in Nether Edge, Nether Edge Local History Group, 1988.
Earning a Living: Memories of Work in and around Sheffield (2 volumes), Workers Education Association, 2008.
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Thanks, my friend. That list should keep me busy for a while. :thumbup:
I read the abstract for the doctoral thesis and it sounds fascinating. It'll be finding its way to my iPad when I get home.
Edited to add: I started reading the Dairy Maids thread during my train ride home. Great stuff!
:thumbup:I read the abstract for the doctoral thesis and it sounds fascinating. It'll be finding its way to my iPad when I get home.
Edited to add: I started reading the Dairy Maids thread during my train ride home. Great stuff!
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Glad they're of interest guys. I'll try and find online links to some of the PDFs I have
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Here's a few I've been able to find links for. Happy reading
Butcher Works: http://www.strazors.com/uploads/images/Butcher_Works_Panels_1-7.pdf
Cutlery & Cutlers at Sheffield (English Illustrated Magazine 1884) by Henry J Palmer: http://youle.info/history/fh_material/cutlery_and_cutlers.html
The Cutlery Story by Lewis D Bement: http://jwissandsons.com/cutlery-story.pdf
'Deceitful Wares' by Joan Unwin: history.research.southwales.ac.uk/media/files/documents/.../Unwin_J.doc
The Finance of Manufacturing Industry in the Sheffield Area c.1850-C.1855 by Lucy Newton: https://lra.le.ac.uk/bitstream/2381/7674/1/493026.pdf
The Hallamshire Cutlery Trades in the late 17th century by Joan Unwin: http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/3426/1/251201.pdf
One Great Workshop: https://content.historicengland.org...ns/one-great-workshop/one-great-workshop.pdf/
Pen & Pocket Knife Trade (Hawley Tools Collection Factsheet): http://www.hawleytoolcollection.com/uploads/PDF/Pen and Pocket Knife Trade.pdf
Sheffield in the 18th Century by Robert Eadon Leader: http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/3426/1/251201.pdf
The Sheffield Plant Base by Around 1800 by Dr John S Plant: http://www.plant-fhg.org.uk/shefbase.pdf
A Short History of R.F. Mosley & Company Ltd by Jeff W Warner: http://www.hawleytoolcollection.com/uploads/PDF/FOM - A Short History of R F Mosley by Jeff Warner.pdf
Skills of the Sheffield Hand Forger by Geoffrey Tweedale: http://contrib2.wkfinetools.com/twe...g-pdf/TWEEDALE-SkilsOfSheffieldHandForger.pdf
Under Five Sovereigns (History of Joseph Rodgers): http://www.eggintongroup.co.uk/assets/files/PDFs/Under Five Sovereigns.pdf
Carrying my Buffalo again today
Butcher Works: http://www.strazors.com/uploads/images/Butcher_Works_Panels_1-7.pdf
Cutlery & Cutlers at Sheffield (English Illustrated Magazine 1884) by Henry J Palmer: http://youle.info/history/fh_material/cutlery_and_cutlers.html
The Cutlery Story by Lewis D Bement: http://jwissandsons.com/cutlery-story.pdf
'Deceitful Wares' by Joan Unwin: history.research.southwales.ac.uk/media/files/documents/.../Unwin_J.doc
The Finance of Manufacturing Industry in the Sheffield Area c.1850-C.1855 by Lucy Newton: https://lra.le.ac.uk/bitstream/2381/7674/1/493026.pdf
The Hallamshire Cutlery Trades in the late 17th century by Joan Unwin: http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/3426/1/251201.pdf
One Great Workshop: https://content.historicengland.org...ns/one-great-workshop/one-great-workshop.pdf/
Pen & Pocket Knife Trade (Hawley Tools Collection Factsheet): http://www.hawleytoolcollection.com/uploads/PDF/Pen and Pocket Knife Trade.pdf
Sheffield in the 18th Century by Robert Eadon Leader: http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/3426/1/251201.pdf
The Sheffield Plant Base by Around 1800 by Dr John S Plant: http://www.plant-fhg.org.uk/shefbase.pdf
A Short History of R.F. Mosley & Company Ltd by Jeff W Warner: http://www.hawleytoolcollection.com/uploads/PDF/FOM - A Short History of R F Mosley by Jeff Warner.pdf
Skills of the Sheffield Hand Forger by Geoffrey Tweedale: http://contrib2.wkfinetools.com/twe...g-pdf/TWEEDALE-SkilsOfSheffieldHandForger.pdf
Under Five Sovereigns (History of Joseph Rodgers): http://www.eggintongroup.co.uk/assets/files/PDFs/Under Five Sovereigns.pdf
Carrying my Buffalo again today
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waynorth
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Here's a few I've been able to find links for. Happy reading :thumbup:
(list of readings deleted for bandwidth)
Carrying my Buffalo again today :thumbup:
You must be the most well-read denizen of these here parts, Jack!
But I am not sure I'd recognize you without that Buffalo!!
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You must be the most well-read denizen of these here parts, Jack!
But I am not sure I'd recognize you without that Buffalo!!
LOL!
I don't know about that Charlie, but thanks for the compliment my friend I must say, I get as much pleasure reading now, as I did as a kid
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