"How do you pronounce SunOS?" "Just like you hear it, with a big SOS"
finlandia:~> apropos win win: nothing appropriate.
C:\> WIN Bad command or filename C:\> LOSE Loading Microsoft Windows ...
Linux ext2fs has been stable for a long time, now it's time to break it
The state of some commercial Un*x is more unsecure than any Linux box without a root password...
Less is more or less more
Let's call it an accidental feature.
......... Escape the 'Gates' of Hell
`:::' ....... ......
::: * `::. ::'
::: .:: .:.::. .:: .:: `::. :'
::: :: :: :: :: :: :::.
::: .::. .:: ::. `::::. .:' ::.
...:::.....................::' .::::..
Win95 is not a virus; a virus does something.
Machine Always Crashes, If Not, The Operating System Hangs (MACINTOSH)
Except for Great Britain. According to ISO 9166 and Internet reality Great Britain's toplevel domain should be _gb_. Instead, Great Britain and Nortern Ireland (the United Kingdom) use the toplevel domain _uk_. They drive on the wrong side of the road, too.
Save yourself from the 'Gates' of hell, use Linux." -- like that one.
I did this 'cause Linux gives me a woody. It doesn't generate revenue.
Feel free to contact me (flames about my english and the useless of this driver will be redirected to /dev/null, oh no, it's full...).
if (argc > 1 && strcmp(argv[1], "-advice") == 0) {
printf("Don't Panic!\n");
exit(42);
}
lp1 on fire
A Linux machine! Because a 486 is a terrible thing to waste!
Microsoft is not the answer. Microsoft is the question. NO (or Linux) is the answer.
In most countries selling harmful things like drugs is punishable. Then howcome people can sell Microsoft software and go unpunished?
Windows without the X is like making love without a partner.
Sex, Drugs & Linux Rules
win-nt from the people who invented edlin.
Apples have meant trouble since eden.
Linux, the way to get rid of boot viruses
Once upon a time there was a DOS user who saw Unix, and saw that it was good. After typing cp on his DOS machine at home, he downloaded GNU's Unix tools ported to DOS and installed them. He rm'd, cp'd, and mv'd happily for many days, and upon finding elvis, he vi'd and was happy. After a long day at work (on a Unix box) he came home, started editing a file, and couldn't figure out why he couldn't suspend vi (w/ ctrl-z) to do a compile.
We are MicroSoft. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.
Avoid the Gates of Hell. Use Linux
Intel engineering seem to have misheard Intel marketing strategy. The phrase was "Divide and conquer" not "Divide and cock up"
Linux! Guerrilla UNIX Development Venimus, Vidimus, Dolavimus.
----==-- _ / / \ ---==---(_)__ __ ____ __ / / /\ \ --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / / /_/\ \ \ -=====/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ /______\ \ \ A proud member of TeamLinux \_________\/
"Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?" Microsoft spel chekar vor sail, worgs grate!!
Personally, I think my choice in the mostest-superlative-computer wars has to be the HP-48 series of calculators. They'll run almost anything. And if they can't, while I'll just plug a Linux box into the serial port and load up the HP-48 VT-100 emulator.
There are no threads in a.b.p.erotica, so there's no gain in using a threaded news reader.
/*
* Oops. The kernel tried to access some bad page. We'll have to
* terminate things with extreme prejudice.
*/
die_if_kernel("Oops", regs, error_code);
Linux: because a PC is a terrible thing to waste
Linux: the choice of a GNU generation
There are two types of Linux developers - those who can spell, and those who can't. There is a constant pitched battle between the two.
> > Other than the fact Linux has a cool name, could someone explain why I > > should use Linux over BSD? > > No. That's it. The cool name, that is. We worked very hard on > creating a name that would appeal to the majority of people, and it > certainly paid off: thousands of people are using linux just to be able > to say "OS/2? Hah. I've got Linux. What a cool name". 386BSD made the > mistake of putting a lot of numbers and weird abbreviations into the > name, and is scaring away a lot of people just because it sounds too > technical.
> The day people think linux would be better served by somebody else (FSF > being the natural alternative), I'll "abdicate". I don't think that > it's something people have to worry about right now - I don't see it > happening in the near future. I enjoy doing linux, even though it does > mean some work, and I haven't gotten any complaints (some almost timid > reminders about a patch I have forgotten or ignored, but nothing > negative so far). > > Don't take the above to mean that I'll stop the day somebody complains: > I'm thick-skinned (Lasu, who is reading this over my shoulder commented > that "thick-HEADED is closer to the truth") enough to take some abuse. > If I weren't, I'd have stopped developing linux the day ast ridiculed me > on c.o.minix. What I mean is just that while linux has been my baby so > far, I don't want to stand in the way if people want to make something > better of it (*). > > Linus > > (*) Hey, maybe I could apply for a saint-hood from the Pope. Does > somebody know what his email-address is? I'm so nice it makes you puke.
> : Any porters out there should feel happier knowing that DEC is shipping > : me an AlphaPC that I intend to try getting linux running on: this will > : definitely help flush out some of the most flagrant unportable stuff. > : The Alpha is much more different from the i386 than the 68k stuff is, so > : it's likely to get most of the stuff fixed. > > It's posts like this that almost convince us non-believers that there > really is a god.
When you say "I wrote a program that crashed Windows", people just stare at you blankly and say "Hey, I got those with the system, *for free*".
We come to bury DOS, not to praise it.
Be warned that typing \fBkillall \fIname\fP may not have the desired effect on non-Linux systems, especially when done by a privileged user.
Note that if I can get you to "su and say" something just by asking, you have a very serious security problem on your system and you should look into it.
How should I know if it works? That's what beta testers are for. I only coded it.
I develop for Linux for a living, I used to develop for DOS. Going from DOS to Linux is like trading a glider for an F117.
Absolutely nothing should be concluded from these figures except that no conclusion can be drawn from them.
If the future navigation system [for interactive networked services on the NII] looks like something from Microsoft, it will never work.
Problem solving under Linux has never been the circus that it is under AIX.
I don't know why, but first C programs tend to look a lot worse than first programs in any other language (maybe except for fortran, but then I suspect all fortran programs look like `firsts')
On a normal ascii line, the only safe condition to detect is a 'BREAK' - everything else having been assigned functions by Gnu EMACS.
By golly, I'm beginning to think Linux really *is* the best thing since sliced bread.
I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated Development That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb. Thank you.
Oh, I've seen copies [of Linux Journal] around the terminal room at The Labs.
If you want to travel around the world and be invited to speak at a lot of different places, just write a Unix operating system.
...and scantily clad females, of course. Who cares if it's below zero outside.
...you might as well skip the Xmas celebration completely, and instead sit in front of your linux computer playing with the all-new-and-improved linux kernel version.
Besides, I think Slackware sounds better than 'Microsoft,' don't you?
All language designers are arrogant. Goes with the territory...
And the next time you consider complaining that running Lucid Emacs 19.05 via NFS from a remote Linux machine in Paraguay doesn't seem to get the background colors right, you'll know who to thank.
Are [Linux users] lemmings collectively jumping off of the cliff of reliable, well-engineered commercial software?
Even more amazing was the realization that God has Internet access. I wonder if He has a full newsfeed?
I once witnessed a long-winded, month-long flamewar over the use of mice vs. trackballs... It was very silly.
Linux poses a real challenge for those with a taste for late-night hacking (and/or conversations with God).
What you end up with, after running an operating system concept through these many marketing coffee filters, is something not unlike plain hot water.
...Deep Hack Mode -- that mysterious and frightening state of consciousness where Mortal Users fear to tread.
...Unix, MS-DOS, and Windows NT (also known as the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly).
...very few phenomena can pull someone out of Deep Hack Mode, with two noted exceptions: being struck by lightning, or worse, your *computer* being struck by lightning.
..you could spend *all day* customizing the title bar. Believe me. I speak from experience.
[In 'Doctor' mode], I spent a good ten minutes telling Emacs what I thought of it. (The response was, 'Perhaps you could try to be less abusive.')
I would rather spend 10 hours reading someone else's source code than 10 minutes listening to Musak waiting for technical support which isn't.
...[Linux's] capacity to talk via any medium except smoke signals.
Whip me. Beat me. Make me maintain AIX.
Your job is being a professor and researcher: That's one hell of a good excuse for some of the brain-damages of minix.
I still maintain the point that designing a monolithic kernel in 1991 is a fundamental error. Be thankful you are not my student. You would not get a high grade for such a design :-)
We use Linux for all our mission-critical applications. Having the source code means that we are not held hostage by anyone's support department.
Linux is obsolete
Dijkstra probably hates me.
And 1.1.81 is officially BugFree(tm), so if you receive any bug-reports on it, you know they are just evil lies.
We are Pentium of Borg. Division is futile. You will be approximated.
Linux: the operating system with a CLUE... Command Line User Environment.
quit When the quit statement is read, the bc processor
is terminated, regardless of where the quit state-
ment is found. For example, "if (0 == 1) quit"
will cause bc to terminate.
Sic transit discus mundi
Sigh. I like to think it's just the Linux people who want to be on the "leading edge" so bad they walk right off the precipice.
We all know Linux is great... it does infinite loops in 5 seconds. - Linus Torvalds about the superiority of Linux on the Amterdam Linux Symposium
Waving away a cloud of smoke, I look up, and am blinded by a bright, white light. It's God. No, not Richard Stallman, or Linus Torvalds, but God. In a booming voice, He says: "THIS IS A SIGN. USE LINUX, THE FREE UNIX SYSTEM FOR THE 386.
The chat program is in public domain. This is not the GNU public license. If it breaks then you get to keep both pieces.
'Mounten' wird für drei Dinge benutzt: 'Aufsitzen' auf Pferde, 'einklinken' von Festplatten in Dateisysteme, und, nun, 'besteigen' beim Sex.
Manchmal stehe nachts auf und installier's mir einfach...
'Mounting' is used for three things: climbing on a horse, linking in a hard disk unit in data systems, and, well, mounting during sex.
We are using Linux daily to UP our productivity - so UP yours!
But what can you do with it?
/*
* [...] Note that 120 sec is defined in the protocol as the maximum
* possible RTT. I guess we'll have to use something other than TCP
* to talk to the University of Mars.
* PAWS allows us longer timeouts and large windows, so once implemented
* ftp to mars will work nicely.
*/
DOS: n., A small annoying boot virus that causes random spontaneous system
crashes, usually just before saving a massive project. Easily cured by
UNIX. See also MS-DOS, IBM-DOS, DR-DOS.
MSDOS didn't get as bad as it is overnight -- it took over ten years of careful development.
LILO, you've got me on my knees!
I've run DOOM more in the last few days than I have the last few months. I just love debugging ;-)
Microsoft Corp., concerned by the growing popularity of the free 32-bit operating system for Intel systems, Linux, has employed a number of top programmers from the underground world of virus development. Bill Gates stated yesterday: "World domination, fast -- it's either us or Linus". Mr. Torvalds was unavailable for comment ...
The only "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that, it's all learned.
After watching my newly-retired dad spend two weeks learning how to make a new folder, it became obvious that "intuitive" mostly means "what the writer or speaker of intuitive likes".
Now I know someone out there is going to claim, "Well then, UNIX is intuitive, because you only need to learn 5000 commands, and then everything else follows from that! Har har har!"
> No manual is ever necessary. May I politely interject here: BULLSHIT. That's the biggest Apple lie of all!
How do I type "for i in *.dvi do xdvi $i done" in a GUI?
>Ever heard of .cshrc? That's a city in Bosnia. Right?
Who wants to remember that escape-x-alt-control-left shift-b puts you into super-edit-debug-compile mode?
Anyone who thinks UNIX is intuitive should be forced to write 5000 lines of code using nothing but vi or Emacs. AAAAACK!
Now, it we had this sort of thing:
yield -a for yield to all traffic
yield -t for yield to trucks
yield -f for yield to people walking (yield foot)
yield -d t* for yield on days starting with t
...you'd have a lot of dead people at intersections, and traffic jams you
wouldn't believe...
Actually, typing random strings in the Finder does the equivalent of filename completion.
Not me, guy. I read the Bash man page each day like a Jehovah's Witness reads the Bible. No wait, the Bash man page IS the bible. Excuse me...
On the Internet, no one knows you're using Windows NT
> I'm an idiot.. At least this [bug] took about 5 minutes to find.. Disquieting ...
> I'm an idiot.. At least this [bug] took about 5 minutes to find.. We need to find some new terms to describe the rest of us mere mortals then.
> I'm an idiot.. At least this [bug] took about 5 minutes to find.. Surely, Linus is talking about the kind of idiocy that others aspire to :-).
Never make any mistaeks.
+#if defined(__alpha__) && defined(CONFIG_PCI) + /* + * The meaning of life, the universe, and everything. Plus + * this makes the year come out right. + */ + year -= 42; +#endif
As usual, this being a 1.3.x release, I haven't even compiled this kernel yet. So if it works, you should be doubly impressed.
People disagree with me. I just ignore them.
It's now the GNU Emacs of all terminal emulators.
Audience: What will become of Linux when the Hurd is ready? Eric Youngdale: Err... is Richard Stallman here?
Linux: The OS people choose without $200,000,000 of persuasion.
The memory management on the PowerPC can be used to frighten small children.
... faster BogoMIPS calculations (yes, it now boots 2 seconds faster than it used to: we're considering changing the name from "Linux" to "InstaBOOT"
... of course, this probably only happens for tcsh which uses wait4(), which is why I never saw it. Serves people who use that abomination right 8^)
It's a bird.. It's a plane.. No, it's KernelMan, faster than a speeding bullet, to your rescue. Doing new kernel versions in under 5 seconds flat..
Eh, that's it, I guess. No 300 million dollar unveiling event for this kernel, I'm afraid, but you're still supposed to think of this as the "happening of the century" (at least until the next kernel comes along).
Oh, and this is another kernel in that great and venerable "BugFree(tm)" series of kernels. So be not afraid of bugs, but go out in the streets and deliver this message of joy to the masses.
When you say 'I wrote a program that crashed Windows', people just stare at you blankly and say 'Hey, I got those with the system, *for free*'.
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)
> Linux is not user-friendly. It _is_ user-friendly. It is not ignorant-friendly and idiot-friendly.
Keep me informed on the behaviour of this kernel.. As the "BugFree(tm)" series didn't turn out too well, I'm starting a new series called the "ItWorksForMe(tm)" series, of which this new kernel is yet another shining example.
Seriously, the way I did this was by using a special /sbin/loader binary with debugging hooks that I made ("dd" is your friend: binary editors are for wimps).
(I tried to get some documentation out of Digital on this, but as far as I can tell even _they_ don't have it ;-)
Q: Why shouldn't I simply delete the stuff I never use, it's just taking up
space?
A: This question is in the category of Famous Last Words..
Q: What's the big deal about rm, I have been deleting stuff for years? And
never lost anything.. oops!
A: ...
Linux is addictive, I'm hooked!
panic("Foooooooood fight!");
Convention organizer to Linus Torvalds: "You might like to come with us to some licensed[1] place, and have some pizza." Linus: "Oh, I did not know that you needed a license to eat pizza". [1] Licenced - refers in Australia to a restaurant which has government licence to sell liquor.
Footnotes are for things you believe don't really belong in LDP manuals, but want to include anyway.
Eh, that's it, I guess. No 300 million dollar unveiling event for this kernel, I'm afraid, but you're still supposed to think of this as the "happening of the century" (at least until the next kernel comes along). Oh, and this is another kernel in that great and venerable "BugFree(tm)" series of kernels. So be not afraid of bugs, but go out in the streets and deliver this message of joy to the masses.
Ok, I'm just uploading the new version of the kernel, v1.3.33, also known as "the buggiest kernel ever".
Go not unto the Usenet for advice, for you will be told both yea and nay (and quite a few things that just have nothing at all to do with the question).
Those who don't understand Linux are doomed to reinvent it, poorly.
Look, I'm about to buy me a double barreled sawed off shotgun and show Linus what I think about backspace and delete not working.
I forgot to mention an important fact in the 1.3.67 announcement. In order to
get a fully working kernel, you have to follow the steps below:
- Walk around your computer widdershins 3 times, chanting "Linus is
overworked, and he makes lousy patches, but we love him anyway". Get
your spuouse to do this too for extra effect. Children are optional.
- Apply the patch included in this mail
- Call your system "Super-67", and don't forget to unapply the patch
before you later applying the official 1.3.68 patch.
- reboot
We apologize for the inconvenience, but we'd still like you to test out this kernel.
The new Linux anthem will be "He's an idiot, but he's ok", as performed by Monthy Python. You'd better start practicing.
How do you power off this machine?
Excusing bad programming is a shooting offence, no matter _what_ the circumstances.
Linus? Whose that?
N: Phil Lewis E: beans@bucket.ualr.edu D: Promised to send money if I would put his name in the source tree. S: PO Box 371 S: North Little Rock, Arkansas 72115 S: US
> You know you are "there" when you are known by your first name, and > are recognized. > Lemmie see, there is Madonna, and Linus, and ..... help me out here! Bill ? ;-)
Whoa...I did a 'zcat /vmlinuz > /dev/audio' and I think I heard God...
Some people have told me they don't think a fat penguin really embodies the grace of Linux, which just tells me they have never seen a angry penguin charging at them in excess of 100mph. They'd be a lot more careful about what they say if they had.
MS-DOS, you can't live with it, you can live without it.
> If you don't need X then little VT-100 terminals are available for real > cheap. Should be able to find decent ones used for around $40 each. > For that price, they're a must for the kitchen, den, bathrooms, etc.. :) You're right. Can you explain this to my wife?
.. I used to get in more fights with SCO than I did my girlfriend, but now, thanks to Linux, she has more than happily accepted her place back at number one antagonist in my life..
I mean, well, if it were not for Linux I might be roaming the streets looking for drugs or prostitutes or something. Hannu and Linus have my highest admiration (apple polishing mode off).
> What does ELF stand for (in respect to Linux?) ELF is the first rock group that Ronnie James Dio performed with back in the early 1970's. In constrast, a.out is a misspelling of the French word for the month of August. What the two have in common is beyond me, but Linux users seem to use the two words together.
"Linux was made by foreign terrorists to take money from true US companies like Microsoft." - Some AOL'er. "To this end we dedicate ourselves..." -Don
Shoot me again. Just proving that the quickest way to solve the problem is to post a whine to the newsgroups: within moments the solution presents itself to me, and meanwhile my ass is hanging out on the Net... *sigh*...
> Is there any hope for me? Am I just thick? Does anyone remember the > Rubiks Cube, it was easier! I found that the Rubiks cube and Linux are alike. Looks real confusing until you read the right book. :-)
> I've hacked the Xaw3d library to give you a Win95 like interface and it > is named Xaw95. You can replace your Xaw3d library. Oh God, this is so disgusting!
Besides, its really not worthwhile to use more than two times your physical ram in swap (except in a select few situations). The performance of the system becomes so abysmal you'd rather heat pins under your toenails while reciting Windows95 source code and staring at porn flicks of Bob Dole than actually try to type something.
> I get the following error messages at bootup, could anyone tell me > what they mean? > fcntl_setlk() called by process 51 (lpd) with broken flock() emulation They mean that you have not read the documentation when upgrading the kernel.
Only wimps use tape backup: _real_ men just upload their important stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it ;)
One of the things that hamper Linux's climb to world domination is the shortage of bad Computer Role Playing Games, or CRaPGs. No operating system can be considered respectable without one.
The game, anoraks.2.0.0.tgz, will be available from sunsite until somebody responsible notices it and deletes it, and shortly from ftp.mee.tcd.ie/pub/Brian, though they don't know that yet.
'Ooohh... "FreeBSD is faster over loopback, when compared to Linux over the wire". Film at 11.'
Q: Would you like to see the WINE list? A: What's on it, anything expensive? Q: No, just Solitaire and MineSweeper for now, but the WINE is free.
So in the future, one 'client' at a time or you'll be spending CPU time with lots of little 'child processes'.
By the way, I can hardly feel sorry for you... All last night I had to listen to her tears, so great they were redirected to a stream. What? Of _course_ you didn't know. You and your little group no longer have any permissions around here. She changed her .lock files, too.
We should start referring to processes which run in the background by their correct technical name... paenguins.
We can use symlinks of course... syslogd would be a symlink to syslogp and ftpd and ircd would be linked to ftpp and ircp... and of course the point-to-point protocal paenguin.
This is a logical analogy too... anyone who's been around, knows the world is run by paenguins. Always a paenguin behind the curtain, really getting things done. And paenguins in politics--who can deny it?
Linux: Where Don't We Want To Go Today?
The most important design issue... is the fact that Linux is supposed to be fun...
In short, at least give the penguin a fair viewing. If you still don't like it, that's ok: that's why I'm boss. I simply know better than you do.
<SomeLamer> what's the difference between chattr and chmod? <SomeGuru> SomeLamer: man chattr > 1; man chmod > 2; diff -u 1 2 | less
The linuX Files -- The Source is Out There.
"... being a Linux user is sort of like living in a house inhabited by a large family of carpenters and architects. Every morning when you wake up, the house is a little different. Maybe there is a new turret, or some walls have moved. Or perhaps someone has temporarily removed the floor under your bed." - Unix for Dummies, 2nd Edition
C is quirky, flawed, and an enormous success
If Bill Gates is the Devil then Linus Torvalds must be the Messiah.
Vini, vidi, Linux!
Checking host system type... i586-unknown-linux configure: error: sorry, this is the gnu os, not linux
It's easy to get on the internet and forget you have a life
To kick or not to kick...
Linux - Where do you want to fly today?
The easiest way to get the root password is to become system admin.
The good thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from.
The primary difference [...] is that the Java programm will reliably and obviously crash, whereas the C Program will do something obscure
LOAD "LINUX",8,1
Old MacLinus had a stack/l-i-n-u-x/and on this stack he had a trace/l-i-n-u-x with an Oops-Oops here and an Oops-Oops there here an Oops, there an Oops, everywhere an Oops-Oops.
Also another major deciding factor is availability of source code. It just gives everybody a warm fuzzy feeling knowing that there is source code available to the product you are using. It allows everybody to improve on the product and fix bugs etc. sooner that the author(s) would get the time/chance to.
> Also another major deciding factor is availability of source code. > It just gives everybody a warm fuzzy feeling knowing that there is > source code available to the product you are using. It allows everybody > to improve on the product and fix bugs etc. sooner that the author(s) > would get the time/chance to. I think this is one the really BIG reasons for the snowball/onslaught of Linux and the wealth of stuff available that gets enhanced faster than the real vendors can keep up.
Not only Guinness - Linux is good for you, too.
> NE-2000 clone. Pentium optimizing gcc (pentium gcc pl8 I think).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Build a kernel with the proper gcc. Reports with a non standard compiler
are useless.
BTW: I have a better name for the software .... Microsoft Internet Exploder.
Well, since MS cant be sure of the username of someone downloading things, they are going to play it safe and have everything dowloaded and executed by Explorer as suid root. That way, it will run on ANY system anywhere. :)
If you really want pure ASCII, save it as text... or browse it with your favorite browser...
Sorry for mailing this article, I've obviously made a typo (168!=186) that's the price for being up all night and doing some "quick" checks before you go to bed ....
Just to remind everyone. Today, Sept 17, is Linux's 5th birthday. So happy birthday to all on the list. Thanks go out to Linus and all the other hard-working maintainers for 5 wonderful fast paced years!
Exporting beer from Finnland doesn't seem to be that much of a hassle, as the Lenigrad Cowboys brought a lot of their brew to the concerts in Austria.
Beeping is cute, if you are in the office ;)
> Where in the US is Linus? He was in the "Promise Land".
> Yeah, Linus is in the US.
>
> His source trees are in Finland.
OK, someone give him access -fast- ...... ;-)
Subject: Linux box finds it hard to wake up in the morning I've heard of dogs being like their owners, but Linux boxen?
Win 95 is simplified for the user:
User: What does this configuration thing do?
You: It allows you to modify you settings, for networking,
hardware, protocols, ...
User: Whoa! Layman's terms, please!
You: It changes stuff.
User: That's what I'm looking for! What can it change?
You: This part change IP forwarding. It allows ...
User: Simplify, simplify! What can it do for ME?
You: Nothing, until you understand it.
User: Well it makes me uncomfortable. It looks so technical;
Get rid of it, I want a system *I* can understand.
You: But...
User: Hey, who's system is this anyway?
You: (... rm this, rm that, rm /etc/* ...) "All done."
*** PUBLIC flooding detected from erikyyy <lewnie> THAT's an erik, pholx.... ;)
I've no idea when Linus is going to release 2.0.24, but if he takes too long Im going to release a 2.0.24unoff and he can sound off all he likes.
All the existing 2.0.x kernels are to buggy for 2.1.x to be the main goal.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
martin@bdsi.com (no longer valid - where are you now, Martin?)
[...] or some clown changed the chips on a board and not its name. (Don't laugh! Look at the SMC etherpower for that.)
REST: P: Linus Torvalds S: Buried alive in email
Why use Windows when you can have air conditioning? Why use Windows when you can leave through the door?
Netscape is not a newsreader, and probably never shall be.
I think it's time to remove Qt and Qt-derived applications from the distributon. By distributing it, we only encourage authors to create restrictive licenses.
If someone can point me to a good and _FREE_ backup software that keeps track of which files get stored on which tape, we can change to it.
Whoa, first contact! [...] Welcome, from the people of Terra (Sol III). We extend our hands in friendship, and sincerely hope you shall do the same with your hand-equivelents.
> Whoa, first contact! Nope, 'fraid not, Linux is still primarily used on planet Earth, I'm afraid. Our friend here sent a message in Russian (KOI8-R encoding).
There is, however, a strange, musty smell in the air that reminds me of something...hmm...yes...I've got it...there's a VMS nearby, or I'm a Blit.
Das ganze Saarland ist von M$ besetzt - das ganze? Nein eine kleine Gruppe im Sudwesten trotzt dem ubergrosen Herrscher dank ihres Zaubertrankes Linux
1648 files (84%) out of the files that I mirror disappeared. Since my delete threshold was set at 90%, all those files are now missing from my hard drive. It's going to take a loooong time to fetch those again via 14.4kbps!
Whoever asked if the debian organization was dead isn't reading debian-devel. 66 messages in one day, and it's not over. I find it difficult to keep up.
> What is the status of Linux' Unicode implementation. Will Linux > be prepared for the first contact? We have full klingon console support just in case
"You, sir, are nothing but a pathetically lame salesdroid! I fart in your general direction!"
* Jes wonders why so many people in here uses fooZZZZZ and foo_sleeping nicks <peter> Jes: Because they are sleeping?
* gb notes that fdisk thinks his cdrom can store one terabyte
Check it out, send me comments, and dance joyously in the streets,
AP/STT. Helsinki, Dec 5th, 6:22 AM. For immediate release. In order to allay fears about the continuity of the Linux project, Linus Torvalds together with his manager Tove Monni have released "Linus v2.0", affectionately known as "Kernel Hacker - The Next Generation". Linux stock prices on Wall Street rose sharply after the announcement; as one well-known analyst who wishes to remain anonymous says - "It shows a long-term commitment, and while we expect a short-term decrease in productivity, we feel that this solidifies the development in the long run". Other analysts downplay the importance of the event, and claim that just about anybody could have done it. "I'm glad somebody finally told them about the birds and the bees" one sceptic comments cryptically. But even the skeptics agree that it is an interesting turn of events. Others bring up other issues with the new version - "I'm especially intrigued by the fact that the new version is female, and look forward to seeing what the impact of that will be on future development. Will "Red Hat Linux" change to "Pink Hat Linux", for example?"
Sex dumps core (Sex is a Simple editor for X11)
I tried the clone syscall on me, but it didn't work.
- long f_ffree; /* free file nodes in fs */ + long f_ffree; /* freie Dateiknoten im Dateisystem */
* Phaedrus wishes he could get a machine that consists of Sparc IO, Alpha Processors and sleek design of an SGI <pp> And intel prices
<Tazman> damn my office is cold. <Tazman> need a hot secretary to warm it up.
This is a scsi driver, scraes the shit out of me, therefore I tapdanced and wrote a unix clone around it (C) by linus
* This is complicated. Has to do with interrupts. Thus, I am * scared witless. Therefore I refuse to write this function. :-P
Yes I have a Machintosh, please don't scream at me.
<miguel> any new sendmail hole I have to fix before going on vacations?
AUTHOR FvwmAuto just appeared one day, nobody knows how.
<lilo> Fairlight: udp is the light margarine of tcp/ip transport protocols :)
i dont even know if it makes sense at all :) This is an experimental patch for an experimental kernel :))
Linux - Das System fuer schlaue Maedchen ;)
If loving linux is wrong, I dont wanna be right.
>>> FreeOS is an english-centric name Have you all been stuck in email, or have any of you tried *pronouncing* that? free-oh-ess? free-ows? fritos? :-)
The documentation is in Japanese. Good luck.
People are going to scream bloody murder about that.
> 1. is qmail as secure as they say? Depends on what they were saying, but most likely yes.
NEVER RESPOND TO CRITICAL PRESS. IT IS A GAME YOU CAN ONLY LOSE, AND IT MAKES US LOOK BAD.
A feature is nothing more than a bug with seniority.
Winnuke in one line? No problem:
perl -MIO::Socket -e 'IO::Socket::INET->new(PeerAddr=>"bad.dude.com:139")->send("bye",MSG_OOB)'
And formatted so it's a little easier to read:
#!/usr/bin/perl
use IO::Socket;
IO::Socket::INET
->new(PeerAddr=>"bad.dude.com:139")
->send("bye", MSG_OOB);
(It is an old Debian tradition to leave at least twice a year ...)
When a trainstation is were a train stops what is a workstation?
Computers are not intelligent. They only think they are.
"We don't do a new version to fix bugs." - Bill Gates "The new version - it's not there to fix bugs." - Bill Gates
The POP3 server service depends on the SMTP server service, which failed to start because of the following error: The operation completed successfully.
Software is like sex; it's better when it's free.
vi is [[13~^[[15~^[[15~^[[19~^[[18~^ a muk[^[[29~^[[34~^[[26~^[[32~^ch better editor than this Emacs. I know I^[[14~'ll get flamed for this but the truth has to be said. ^[[D^[[D^[[D^[[D ^[[D^[^[[D^[[D^[[B^ exit ^X^C quit :x :wq dang it :w:w:w :x ^C^C^Z^D
oh okay. my mistake. Yafcot:atj(*), mark * Yet another fool coming over this: according to joey
Sorry. I just realized this sentance makes no sense :)
Netscape is not a newsreader, and probably never shall be.
Stopping Apache webserver...sleeping...starting again...apache: dl-version.c:189:
_dl_check_map_versions: Assertion `needed != ((void *)0)' failed
noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Make it idiot-proof, and someone will breed a better idiot.
#Debian makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. :)
<Myxie> I know. Unless htere is a cookie monster somewhere between us tat muches the amil. <Myxie> amil/mail <Myxie> muches/munches tat/that htere/there <HippieGuy> heheh <HippieGuy> problems? :) * Myxie needs an ircii addon that pipes teh command line through ispell :)
Uh... deity is a word, and diety isn't. Or is it supposed to be one of those recursive acronyms? Diety Is Excellent To You. Deity Eats Icecream That's Yellow. Diety Is Eloping To Yokohama. I'll stop now.
Why are there always boycotts? Shouldn't there be girlcotts too?
<sct> Anyone want the new supermount? :) <klogd> what's new aboutit <sct> klogd: It cleans whiter than white. :)
Und die Tastaturabrdücke auf Ihrer Wange unterstreichen seeeeeehr vorteilhaft ihr unterschütterliches Vertrauen in die moderene Technologie
- DDD no longer requires the librx library. Consequently, librx
errors can no more cause DDD to crash.
snafu = Situation Normal All F%$*ed up
It's computer hardware, of course it's worth having <g>
Alan E. Davis: Some files at llug.sep.bnl.gov/pub/debian/Incoming are stamped on 10 January 1998. As I write, nowhere on Earth is it now 10 January. Craig Sanders: That just proves how advanced debian is, doesn't it :-)
Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows.
I am NOT a kludge! I am a computer!
<Joey> gorgo: *lol* <gorgo> joey: what's so funny? :) <Culus> shh, joey is losing all sanity from lack of sleep <Culus> 'yes joey, very funny' <Culus> Humor him :>
* SynrG notes that the number of configuration questions to answer in sendmail is NON-TRIVIAL
My apologies if I sound angry. I feel like I'm talking to a void.
RIP is irrelevant. Spoofing is futile. Your routes will be aggregated.
After 14 non-maintainer releases, I'm the S-Lang non-maintainer.
BREAKFAST.COM Halted... Cereal Port Not Responding.
* JHM wonders what Joey did to earn "I'd just like to say, for the record, that Joey rules."
Q: Why are Unix emulators like your right hand? A: They're just pussy substitutes!
Steal my cash, car and TV - but leave the computer!
The only really good reason I can think to not release specs is embarrassment on just how crappy some hardware out there is, or just how buggy it is.
> Alan Cox wrote: [..] No I didnt. Someone else wrote that. Please keep attributions straight.
Do people like check the Debian website every 5 minutes to check it hasn't morphed into another one? Not that I'm one to talk, but some people seriously need to get a life
... Linux und seine Programme sind damit so etwas wie ein real existierender Sozialismus der besseren Art ...
* james would be more impressed if netgod's magic powers could stop the splits in the first place... * netgod notes debian developers are notoriously hard to impress
* In anticipation of 2.10.02 release, updated to patchlevel
+ircu2.10.01+.config6-7.config7-8.lgline3.iwho.limit.glibc.motdcache2.trace.whois1-2.config8-9.statsw.sprintf2-3.msgtree2.memleak1-2+.msgtree2-3.gline8-9.gline9-10.invite2.rbr.stats.numclients.whisper.whisper1-2.stats1-2.nokick1-2.chroot.config9-11.snomask7-8.limi+t1-3.userip1-3.userip3-4.config11-12.config12-13.umode2-3.akillsbt.who4-5.kn.kn1-2.freebsdcore2.msgtree3-5.y2k.glibc1-2.rmfunc.msgf+lags2.who5-6.nickchange2.glibc2-3.modeless3
* Joey should not write changelog entries at 5:30am <Joey> * DFSC Free cgi library <Joey> What's that? DFSC? <jim> Debian Free Software mroooooCows
<posix> this guy _is_ crazy <stargazer> posix: from the looks of Enlightenment he's on LSD <posix> LSD is nothing compared to what this guy's on..
On Netscape GPLing their browser: ``How can you trust a browser that ANYONE can hack? For the secure choice, choose Microsoft.''
Turn right here. No! NO! The OTHER right!
#define FALSE 0 /* This is the naked Truth */ #define TRUE 1 /* and this is the Light */
<Stealth> How do I bind a computer to an NIS server? <Joey> Use a rope?
Try to remove the color-problem by restarting your computer several times.
Does biff in bo work coz it biffin doesn't beep an if biff in bo is broke then biff in bo I will delete I've tried biff in bo with 'y' I've tried biff in bo with '-y' no biffin output does it show so poor wee biff is gonna go.
Real Men don't make backups. They upload it via ftp and let the world mirror it.
One tree to rule them all, One tree to find them, One tree to bring them all, and to itself bind them.
As I currently don't have a floppy drive in my computer, I'd like to make an `emergency cdrom' ;)
The bug system is not a release-specific entity. Users of Debian 1.3.1 use the same bug tracking system as users of hamm.
Alan Cox wrote: >> On any procmail new enough not to be full of security holes you set >Brain on, Imeant majordomo of course 8) You got me worried there for a brief (very brief) moment :-).
<grin> seen jhm <dpkg> jhm is Sarek, and jhm is on the channel right now! * JHM wonders why dpkg remembers that particular nick. <grin> dpkg: Sarek? ermm, sure, and I am Khan
When you have 200 programmers trying to write code for one product, like Win95 or NT, what you get is a multipule personality program. By definition, the real problem is that these programs are psychotic by nature and make people crazy when they use them.
<igor> Hah! we have 2 Johnie Ingrams in the channel :) <igor> Hey all btw :)
I just uploaded xtoolplaces-1.6. It fixes all bugs but one: It still coredumps instead of doing something useful. The upstream author's e-mail address bounces, Redhat doesn't provide it and I never used it.
> I thing you're missing the capability of Makefiles.
It takes several _hours_ to do `make' a second time on my
machine with the latest glibc sources (and no files are recompiled a
second time). I think I'll remove `build' after changing one file if
I want to recompile it.
<Culus> aIIIIIIIIIII!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 <Culus> MY LIGHT JUST DIED <Culus> I AM SO SAD <Culus> I'm blind! I'm blind! <dark> Light? <dark> Turn all your xterms to black-on-white :) Plenty of light that way.
| |-sshd---tcsh-+-dpkg-buildpacka---rules---sh---make---make---sh---make---sh---make---sh---make---sh---make---sh---make
/*
* Please skip to the bottom of this file if you ate lunch recently
* -- Alan
*/
#if _FP_W_TYPE_SIZE < 64 #error "Only stud muffins allowed, schmuck." #endif
#if _FP_W_TYPE_SIZE < 32 #error "Here's a nickle kid. Go buy yourself a real computer." #endif
<dark> eat Depends: cook | eat-out.
But eat-out is non-free so that's out.
And cook Recommends: clean-pans.
* Linux Viruscan..... Windows 95 found. Remove it? (Y/y)
<sel> need help: my first packet to my provider gets lost :-( <netgod> sel: dont send the first one, start with #2 * netgod is kidding
These download files are in Microsoft Word 6.0 format. After unzipping, these files can be viewed in any text editor, including all versions of Microsoft Word, WordPad, and Microsoft Word Viewer
<james> abuse me. I'm so lame I sent a bug report to debian-devel-changes
Ooh, mommy, mommy, what I have now doesn't work in this extremely unlikely circumstance, so I'll just throw it away and write something completely new.
#ifdef __SMP__ #error "Me no hablo Alpha SMP" #else #define irq_enter(cpu, irq) (++local_irq_count[cpu]) #define irq_exit(cpu, irq) (--local_irq_count[cpu]) #endif
Linus Torvalds: > This is the special easter release of linux, more mundanely called 1.3.84 Winfried Truemper: > Umh, oh. What do you mean by "special easter release"?. Will it quit > working today and rise on easter?
I never thought that I'd see the say where Netscape is free software and X11 is proprietary. We live in interesting times.
Because I don't need to worry about finances I can ignore Microsoft and take over the (computing) world from the grassroots.
/*
* Buddy system. Hairy. You really aren't expected to understand this
*
*/
baz bat bamus batis bant.
Just go ahead and write your own multitasking multiuser os! Worked for me all the times.
I've seen people with new children before, they go from ultra happy to looking like something out of a zombie film in about a week.
I expect that noone has objections. However, if I'd only add these entries to the list because `I think it's the right thing to do', I'd get a lot of flames afterwards :)
Various documentation updates and bugfixes (the best way to know that a stable kernel is approaching is to notice that somebody starts to spellcheck the kernel - it has so far never failed)
You will not censor me through bug terrorism.
<doogie> Thinking is dangerous. It leads to ideas.
<james> Are we going to make an Emacs out of apt?
APT - Debian in a program. It even does your laundry
<joost> Do you mean to say that I can read mail with vi too? ;-) <Joey> Didn't you know that? <Joey> :r /var/spool/mail/jk
Charles Briscoe-Smith <cpbs@debian.org>:
After all, the gzip package is called `gzip', not `libz-bin'...
James Troup <troup@debian.org>:
Uh, probably because the gzip binary doesn't come from the
non-existent libz package or the existent zlib package.
Debian is like Suse with yast turned off, just better. :)
Arnold's Laws of Documentation: (1) If it should exist, it doesn't. (2) If it does exist, it's out of date. (3) Only documentation for useless programs transcends the first two laws.
The truth is not free. It's that simple. If you change the truth, it is no longer true - so the truth is not free!
<jim> Lemme make sure I'm not wasting time here... bcwhite will remove
pkgs that havent been fixed that have outstanding bugs of severity
"important". True or false?
<JHM> jim: "important" or higher. True.
<jim> Then we're about to lose ftp.debian.org and dpkg :)
* netgod will miss dpkg -- it was occasionally useful
<Joey> We still have rpm....
* JHM wonders what Joey did to earn "I'd just like to say, for the record, that Joey rules."
The problem here (as someon else stated) is that when multiple dists use the same package format it only gives a "false sense of compatibility".
*** Rince is wagner@schizo.DAINet.de (We have Joey, we have Fun, we have Linux on a Sun)
... Linux und seine Programme sind damit so etwas wie ein real existierender Sozialismus der besseren Art...
The most effective has probably been Linux/8086 - that was a joke that got out of hand. So far out of hand in fact its almost approaching usability because other folks thought it worth doing - Alistair Riddoch especially.
The only other people who might benefit from Linux8086 would be owners of PDP/11's and other roomsized computers from the same era.
Ha. I say let them try -- even vi+perl couldn't match the power of an editor which is, after all, its own OS. ;-)
Being overloaded is the sign of a true Debian maintainer.
<alaint> joey--very clever !!! <alaint> joey--no wonder that Debian is a good distrib with coder like you
There are 3 kinds of people: those who can count & those who can't.
Despite the best efforts of a quantum bigfoot drive (yes I know everyone told me they suck, now I know they were right) 2.1.109ac1 is now available
<dark> Turns out that grep returns error code 1 when there are no matches.
I KNEW that. Why did it take me half an hour?
It's simply unbelievable how much energy and creativity people have invested into creating contradictory, bogus and stupid licenses... --- Sven Rudolph about licences in debian/non-free.
<Overfiend> partycle: I seriously do need a vacation from this
package. I actually had a DREAM about introducing a
stupid new bug into xbase-preinst last night. That's a
Bad Sign.
<core> i'm glad Debian finally got into
polar-deep-freeze-we-arent-shitting-you state finally.
<dark> Looks like the channel is back to normal :) <jim> You mean it's not scrolling faster than anyone can read? :)
Alex Buell: Or how about a Penguin logo painted in really really trippy colours, and emblazoned with the word LSD. :o) Geert Uytterhoeven: We already had that one, but unfortunately Russell King fixed that nasty palette bug in drivers/video/fbcon.c :-)
Writing non-free software is not an ethically legitimate activity, so if people who do this run into trouble, that's good! All businesses based on non-free software ought to fail, and the sooner the better.
Außerdem noch [..] die Distribution für Puristen, denen technische Eleganz und Qualität und philosophisch reine Lehre der `freien Software' über totale Einfachheit geht (Debian) und viele mehr.
Fehlermeldung von StarOffice: Das Dokument wurde fuer den Drucker Generic PostScript Printer formatiert. Der Drucker ist nicht vorhanden. Soll der Standarddrucker Generic PostScript Printer verwendet werden? Ob Programme schizophren werden koennen?
No, that's wrong too. Now there's a race condition between the rm and the mv. Hmm, I need more coffee.
Perhaps the RBLing (Realtime Black Hole) of msn.com recently, which prevented a large amount of mail going out for about 4 days, has had a positive influence in Redmond. They did agree to work on their anti-relay capabilities at their POPs to get the RBL lifted.
Microsoft DNS service terminates abnormally when it recieves a response to a DNS query that was never made. Fix Information: Run your DNS service on a different platform.
I am amazed that no-one's based a commercial distribution on Debian yet - it is by far the most solid UNIX-like OS I've ever installed, and I've played with HP/UX, Solaris, FreeBSD, BSDi, and SCO (not to mention OS/2, Novell, Win95/NT)
<Jim> http://www.novare.net/~eam/kaffe/
<Joey> ^
<Joey> And now we all learn how to write Ean's name and the URL is complete.
<Jim> Hah! I noticed that while I sent it, and I tried to hit ^g, but
I was too slow. :-)
Die TeX-Artikel [..] aber doch inzwischen wohl nicht mehr an den Fingern zweier Hände abzählbar (außer vielleicht von Informatikern, die bekanntlich mit den Fingern bis 1023 zählen können.
And Bruce is effectively building BruceIX
<Culus-> I will be known as Ian Black, Ean can be Ian Red, Netgod Ian Blue,
Che gets Ian Yellow, CQ is Ian Purple and Joey is Ian Indigo
When a float occurs on the same page as the start of a supertabular you can expect unexpected results.
From: Ean Schuessler <ean@novare.net> The unrecognized minister of propaganda, E
* liw prefers not to have Linus run Debian, because then /me would have to run Red Hat, just to keep the power balance :)
<\\swing> and if we're playing old distributions... whatever happened to Yggdrasil? :) <joost> \\swing: everybody who tried to pronounce it got their tongue in a knot and choked
I'm telling you that the kernel is stable not because it's a kernel, but because I refuse to listen to arguments like this.
* dpkg ponders: 'C++' should have been called 'D'
<rm_-rf_> The real value of KDE is that they inspired and push the
development of GNOME :-)
* dpkg hands stu a huge glass of vbeer * Joey takes the beer from stu, you're too young ;) * Cylord takes the beer from Joey, you're too drunk. * Cylord gives the beer to muggles.
<stu> Stupid nick highlighting <stu> Whenever someone starts with "stupid" it highlights the nick. Hmm.
<netgod> And once Diziet/CQ make the formal announcment that LSA
sucks, we can even reduce the Crisis Level rating and move
on to linuxfoundation.org.
* LG loves czech girls. <vincent> LG: do they have additional interesting "features" other girls don't have? ;)
The first is to ensure your partner understands that nature has root privileges - nature doesn't have to make sense.
As to house maintenance, does it involve problem solfing? If so, your hacker can safely be left to deall with the panning (for the musement value, if nothering ese).
Remember: While root can do most everything, there are certain privileges that only a partner can grant.
<Skyhook> Where is 'bavaria' proper? I thought it was austria.
Day X+4 months: Microsoft ships NT 5.0 for Intel.with a big media
event on TV. IBM begins to ship Debian 4.6 as the
standard OS on all machines from mainframe to PC
and announces the move on Slashdot.
How many chunks could checkchunk check if checkchunk could check chunks?
Q: How does a Unix guru have sex? A: unzip;strip;touch;finger;mount;fsck;more;yes;umount;sleep
Someone on IRC was very sad about the uptime of his machine wrapping from 497 days to 0.
<doogie> netgod: 8:42pm is not late. <netgod> doogie: its 2:42am in Joeyland
Everyone seems to hate that, but everyone also supports it.
Debian's bug tracking looks very pro.
<JHM> ruud: Repeat after me: Netscape is a web browser.
A web browser. Not a mailer. Not a newsreader.
Not an HTML editor.
<Efraim> joey: i did not say anything. forget i existed. :)
Subject: Bug#42432: debian-policy: Proposal for CTV for Draft for Proof of Concept for Draft for Proposal for Proposal for CTV for a CTV to decide on a proposal for a CTV for the CTV on whether or not we shoud have a CTV on the /usr/doc to /usr/share/doc transition now, or later.
<bdale> Something in the new lprng is funny <rcw> bdale: Just one thing?! :)
In the computer industry, we have lies, damn lies, statistics, benchmarks, and delivery dates.
<Fairlight> Damn weekend. Mailboxen are empty :(
"These download files are in Microsoft Word 6.0 format. After unzipping, these files can be viewed in any text editor, including all versions of Microsoft Word, WordPad, and Microsoft Word Viewer." [Microsoft website]
I'm not trying to give users what they want, I'm trying to give them freedom, which they can then accept or reject. If people don't want freedom, they may be out of luck with me, but I won't allow them to define for me what is right, what is worth spending my life for.
We need to get our penguins in a row instead of wandering around at random like gas molecules.
I am interested in the samosa machines. Could you please send more information regarding these machines, including the prices.
<chbm> I can't believe i just cut my tongue trimming my beard.
<lux> If MacOS is for the computer illiterate, then Windoze is for
the computer masochists.
* bdale thinks life is too short to run proprietary software...
*** Raf (rafael@gallium.icp.inpg.fr) has joined channel #debian-devel <Joey> Raf, I'm currently finishing the list you requested. <Joey> Args, you're the wrong Raphael. <Raf> Joey: I guessed you've mistaken... [..] <Raf> Joey: debconf is fantastic. Who is your boss at VA? <Joey> Raf: Wrong Joey :-)))
* Joey wonders if people believe he's the evil maniac * Joey seems to disagree with lots of developers. <JHM> Joey: It keeps Debian interesting :-)
-e 's/^hardcode_libdir_flag_spec.*$/hardcode_libdir_flag_spec=" -D__LIBTOOL_IS_A_FOOL__ "/' \
<Overfiend> Joey: If its yours, I promise not to scream, because
you cleaned it up and made it better, with no lost mail :)
> How many of these editor things does Debian need? :)) <runs> Two, of course. vi because it's the one true editor, and Emacs to keep the heretics quiet.
Morons, I'm surrounded by morons.
Anyone considering voting for me, don't, because none of you moronic pieces of shit are worthy of my leadership.
History is written by those who have hanged heroes.
Do not get stuck in the old-time UNIX (and BSD and Debian) mentality of "it's supposed to be hard, because that's what makes you a man".
<james-workaway> woooooooooop! <james-workaway> working networking on my tosh... do dah day.
He was bitching that gnapster spit stuff out to stdout, I asked him if it was reproducible in the latest version, he told me to read the diff or check for myself :)
<m2> Oh shit, I started a screen inside a screen.
At my previous place of employment, I introduced "binary-only non-free crap" as a standard phrase. The words could not be used alone. :-)
Fight until you die and drop A force like ours is hard to stop Close your mind to stress and pain, Fight 'till you're no longer sane Let not one damn cur pass by, How many of them can we make see the light and convert to DFSG free licenses?
<Joey> Bah, he names his box after himself... lame :) <Tv> And Joey gives boxes names he can't pronounce ;)
The /etc/Muttrc in the mutt package makes a fruit salad of mutt.
If you don't belive me, by all means give me a user account on your system, and then run dhelp as root, and watch /etc/passwd go bye-bye.
James, I think it would be a good idea to disable the autobuilder while saens is traveling.
FRAME: [1]logo FRAME: [2]header FRAME: [3]links FRAME: [4]text FRAME: [5]logo FRAME: [6]header FRAME: [7]links FRAME: [8]text
tmpname(3):
Never use this function. Use mkstemp(3) instead.
mkstemp(3):
Don't use this function, use tmpfile(3) instead.
tmpfile(3):
< thank goodness it doesn't say to use tmpname instead! >
<Culus> Craig flames Manoj <Culus> That is not going to be good for his health
* Overfiend feels a little better now that he has flamed
"MY GOD!! LOOK!! THAT CAN OF SPAM!!! IT HAS.....TEETH!"
Unfortunately, when I configure the host for more than about 2000 ip aliases, the machine starts to bog down. At about 3000 aliases, the system spends about 50 percent of the time in the kernel.
Another thing to be proud of: ten years ago Tanenbaum invented Minix, a little operating system good for teaching purposes. Many followers wanted to add things. "But the Minix code already was 250 pages, and I wanted to keep things simple for those poor students. Then Linus Torvalds designed Linux on the base of Minix. He is having quite some success with it."
"Where did you learn such language!" "From debian-devel, daddy"
*** vincent has changed the topic on channel #debian to Welcome on #debian * vincent curses at xchat * doogie larts vincent
<joeyh_> MandrakeSoft Buys Bochs, LGPLs It" <joeyh_> Holy shit <joeyh_> That's great! <Culus> Quick! package it! <Culus> What is it? <Culus> Never mind, <Culus> Package faster!
<BenC> [bcollins@auric(2:07pm)-~]%du -sk /scratch/* <BenC> 6752992 /scratch/aj <BenC> 3077624 /scratch/dan <BenC> heh, when people use scratch space...they use a lot
This SPAM COMPLAINT thread might actually be entertaining if we had some Japanese developers flaming each other in English on it.
I've tried to install this linux crap about nearly five times, but everytime it stops with the error message: "login:" Fix that immediately or I'll go public with that.
* Joey has hot news... <wichert> Joey: oh? <Joey> Very hot. <Joey> Our government sucks. <wichert> Joey: euh, that's hardly news
D.E.B.I.A.N.: Digital Electronic Being Intended for Assassination and Nullification
Why do you need to call? I'm perfectly content cowering behind my sandbags right here in the channel.
<Diziet> of: Can I phone you now? <Overfiend> Diziet: Gack!!! <Overfiend> Diziet: I don't want to die! <Diziet> You won't die!
* joeyh tries to figure out why lesbians@hotsex.com is subscribed to bay area Debian
Contrary to popular belief, Unix is user friendly. It just happens to be very selective about who it decides to make friends with.
* Culus gives espy a cookie <Culus> Remember kids, don't feed the trolls * Espy never accepts cookies from strangers, and Culus is quite strange :)
<Joey> Every Gnome app is a good app. :) <shaleh> Joey: No, please not you too (-: * Myth kills Joey
<uberfunk> tooltips/logically labeled buttons are for weenies
* Tv thinks someone at Netscape Communications thinks web surfing is bad for you, and makes the browser crash regularly.
Great, sign me up for whatever self-serving position you have.
Yes. I am strongly in agreement. Every time that script runs ./configure for me, I think "you worthless piece of shit, why are you doing that."
What's that flame war all about? I appreciate people who fiddle with unstable releases, they make them stable, whereas the people fiddling with stable releases hopefully make them more stable.
Confused by the versioning yet. This is my current tree versus Linus' 2.3.99pre4-2. Have fun and bug me not Linus with problems.
<james> CR: ignoring for the moment that a) Theo has a
clue, and b) he has nothing to do with FreeBSD
Those who refuse to understand UNIX are doomed to reinvent it, poorly.
Documentation is like sex. If it is good, it's very very good. If it is bad it's better than nothing.
My personal opinion is that you can't beat rolling over after sex and discussing the how to deal with the latest bug you're working on.
The FAQ says 5 was the classic codebase, which they dropped, so they skipped the version number, too. Espy about Netscape 6
sed 's+|+\\\\+g;s|\\\\ *\\\\|\\\\|g;s|\\\\ *\\\\|\\\\|g;s/$/\\bigskip/;s/\([_&$]\)/\\\1/g'\ u-liste > unterschriften.tex
Your computer system clock is incorrectly set to the right time, date and time zone. from Userfriendly
<Thunder-> People still run stuff on dos 1.0 <Thunder-> Its still dead <Thunder-> :P
<Joy> Chief information officer? What's that mean? :) <wichert> Head FUD spreader <wichert> Also known as chief PR droid
I would have preferred to get a message about my mail not reaching its true destination, now I spent several weeks thinking I sent the mail and pondering why isn't the guy answering.
<rcw> doogie: it's a longshot, but I'm hoping that logic may persuade Xu <joeyh> [logic] [persuade] [Xu] <joeyh> Parse error durring tokenization. Redo from start.
I used to like devfs, before Linus forced out the compatability stuff, Gooch's namespace disgusts me.
Weeks are the same thing as months. That is the secret behind the Debian release schedule.
* rmt notes epic4 has a bug (I assume) since it lets you write lines longer than the IRC server will accept... and of course it fails silently.. really sucks for jokes.. People ask "Where's the punch line?" :P
<rmt> Culus: you mean it's almost at what it's worth? <Culus> Besides, worth is very nebulous when applied to stock
<woot> How do I cd to a dir called "~"? <woot> gnome-napster has decided to dump my mp3s there <woot> oh, escape it.
<woot> Sleep is for the people who must get up early tomorrow. *** Signoff: woot (and I am one of them.)
According to the latest figures, 43% of all statistics are totally worthless.
* stu kicks freebsd <uberfunk> stu: why are you running freebsd? <stu> uberfunk: because it's fast and cool <stu> Aww damn, i'll have to reboot to linux to play games
If I get anything to work at all, others who know more but have been frustrated will get re-energized.
<Espy> Telnet is not really C++, it's more like C on crack
<Overfiend> tausq: I do PHP stuff at work...what's the scoop? <tausq> Overfiend: read my advogato diary :P <Overfiend> tausq: okay. No need to :P. :-P
Coool! Spammers use Debian too!! I think this clearly indicates that we are far and away the best distribution.
<Joy> Oh shit, Xu's got relatives in Debian! <Joy> From: Min Xu <mxu@Horse.ece.wisc.edu> * Joy ph33rz
Can we remove dselect from the dpkg sources? please? pretty please? :)
<is> [leguin] % sudo nmap -p 80 -sS -O -o snova.log 62.232.6.55 <is> Starting nmap V. 2.12 by Fyodor (fyodor@dhp.com, www.insecure.org/nmap/) <is> My god! You seem to have WAY to many routes! <is> QUITTING! <is> Uuh? <is> Who broke nmap
I don't know where you bought your dictionary, but I would ask for a refund.
Can someone please investigate if some of those maintainers, whose names sounds more and more familar to me after reading them every week in the release-critical bug list were secretly hired by RedHat, SuSE or more likely Microsoft to slow down our release cycles?
<Culus> My god! <Culus> djb must be everyhere <liiwi> Culus: huh? <Culus> He just appeared on the exim list
You're a regular Jay Leno, aren't you? A real comedian. Someone uses your resources to SPAM others, and you say, in effect, "Hey, we only make the gun, we can't help it if a criminal uses it to kill somebody." For shame. Irresponsible.
<ibid> JHM: how's dark's finnish nowadays?
<JHM> I guess he's learning. Haven't spoken with him on
IRC since he moved.
<JHM> He sent me a copy of Hamlet, the restored Klingon
version, so I'll have to flex my language muscles :-)
<Joy> Joey: you filed a bug with "Wishlist: severity"
instead of "Severity: wishlist"! :))
Debian keeps it clean.
Debian - The Spirit of Linux
Microsoft is sort of a mixture between the Borg and the Ferengi. Combine the Borg marketing with Ferengi networking... - Andre Beck
Ian thinks the BTS should use sauce. Film at 11 (joeyh) He hasn't contacted owner@b.d.o. Film canceled (gecko) Ian isn't part of the cabal, after all. (doogie)
<joeyh> Oh, postfix can mail you transcripts of smtp
sessions that violate the protocol.
* joeyh thinks he's in love.
<Knghtbrd> Espy: IWJ's idea of perl code scares me. <Espy> s/perl // <Knghtbrd> (actually most people's idea of perl code scares me) <Knghtbrd> Okay, iwj's idea of code in general then =>
* Knghtbrd still couldn't believe iwj didn't want him to patch dselect <Knghtbrd> Good gods, I couldn't have done worse!
<Espy> Dselect needs exactly one patch, a big one, a unified
diff with a large number of lines matching ^- :)
<Espy> shoot upstream [..] <Espy> shoot upstream I say again * Joey admires Espy for his good ideas
* Joey whispers "what a sucker that doesn't create mbox archives" <Espy> shoot upstream I say again
<joeyh> perl -ne 'BEGIN { open (OUT, ">mbox") } chomp; if (/^(\d+):/) { $f=$1; $f="0$f" if length $f < 2 } elsif (/; .*?(<.*>)/) {
$from=$1; open (IN, $f) || die "$f: $!"; print OUT "From $from Fri Jan 28 04:49:29 2000\n"; while (<IN>) { print OUT $_ } }'
index
<joeyh> charming
* Espy gives mailman 4 espies
<Peta> Espy: No. Not 4, maybe 2.5
<Espy> no, taking this case, adding that to the binary
databases, its annoying subscription reminders,
and over-reliance on web interface, that's definitely 4 :P
<Espy> Non-pickled python persistent objects,
try saying that three times fast
<woot> What do you mean, it's not packaged in Debian?
I have lost my soul, there is 4 photos of me on the net now thanks to an over active professor with a digital camera. I guess this means I can attend trade shows too, blast.
Since I have been forced into no longer providing this donation, I intend to actually no longer provide it...
A couple of documents in doc-linux-html are included multiple times in different versions: [..] I think here it should be sufficient to include only the most recent one.
An NT server can be run by an idiot, and usually is.
You can also connect the line using backslash. \
Yes, UNIX tradition.
<BenC> Culus: your clock is way wrong <BenC> Date: Wed, 1 Sep 1999 13:46:46 -0600 (MDT) <Culus> hardly <Culus> that is when it was sent <BenC> Culus: so why isn't this setup already? <Culus> because nobody set it up
We should start up a Debian stock market using bugs as currency.
...we love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next person...
I have decided to release the first 24GB of my genetic code under the Artistic License. since this is DFSG compatible, could it go in main?
<Joy> Heh, ITP: Constitution of Finland <doogie> Joy: RUN AWAY
Newton's Law of Gravitation: What goes up must come down. But don't expect it to come down where you can find it. Murphy's Law applies to Newton's.
I am interested in the samosa machines. Could you please send more information regarding these machines, including the prices. Do you have a machine that mixes, sheets and cuts the samosa pastry, but does not fill and glue.
<joeyh> - straight GPL when used with ghostsript <joeyh> - CUPS license otherwise <joeyh> But the CUPS license is just the GPL! <joeyh> Silly.
Q: How do I <ethically-or-otherwise-questionable-action>? A: You do not. And if you really had to do it, you would know.
<_Anarchy_> telsa: rommable Debian will be potato chips
The problem with the GNU coding standards is they ASSUME that everyone in the world uses Emacs. If that were the case, free software would die because we would all have wrist problems like RMS by now and no longer be able to code. ;>
GNU := GNU's not UNIX
Just curious, DJB created qmail to replace sendmail, Wietse created postfix, why when DJB created dnscache to replace BIND then Wietse didn't create for example WIND (Wietse Internet Name Domain) or WietseCache for example ?
Just what the world needs. Debian provides yet another free, alternative, open-source, Linux based operating system. These things seem to breed like flies don't they? Did I mention it was free?
Rejected: Unknown distribution `froxen'.
Joey, your Perl scares me, but your self morphing 'objects' make me want to build a blanket fort in my living room and live out the rest of my years there.
// Minor lesson: don't fuck about with something you // don't fully understand
* Culus kills Omnic, all of Omnics friends, their friends and 500 random people who live near Omnic just to ward off others from liking Perl.
I want to know where i can find or buy Red Hat m68k for my Mac 68k
<wiggy> Argh, why did my mouse become invisible? <Joey> Got a cat?
<Robot101> kinder eggs have those orange or blue capsules inside
<Robot101> Forget about the chocolate and the toy, fill the capsule with
baking soda and vinegar, shake it, and chuck it in the air =)
<Robot101> (preferably in the direction of someone you don't like =)
Bwa ha ha ha, the blackholing bigots have ended up blackholing EACH OTHER.
Fabrizio: What would be the purpose of "freezing" the bible?
Branden: Because that way it is more effective as a tool
for smacking the heathen over the head.
I'm just answering some mails regarding you and your fucking IRC op games.
Perhaps Debian is concerned more about technical excellence rather than ease of use by breaking software. In the former we may excel. In the latter we have to concede the field to Microsoft. Guess where I want to go today?
*** Espy is now known as Espy_on_crack <wiggy> Espy... Isn't that redundant?
Excuse me, but what about that quote makes it illegal for a license to license the software that it licenses for distribution?
\|||/
(o o)
|~~~~ooO~~(_)~~~~~~~|
| Please |
| don't feed the |
| TROLL's ! |
'~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Ooo~~'
|__|__|
|| ||
ooO Ooo
I can read the bloody *manual* as if it were some sort of religious tract describing forms of enlightenment you can achieve after 10 years on a mountain :)
UNIX := UNIX Not Is XENIX
I was installed in the archive yesterday.
Linux := Linux Is Not UniX
INTERCAL := Compiler Language With No Pronounceable Acronym
> * Added pussy(1) manpage (closes: Bug#62931) man pussy, eh? Good to see Debian's breaking ground as a homoerotic Linux distribution.
<joeyh> Oh my, it's a UP P III. <doogie> Dos it. * joeyh runs dselect <Overfiend> That ought to be sufficient :)
<part> Overfiend: you're so subtle. How do you do it? <james> part: years of training and practice
Of course, you could elegantly resign from the project and start a lawn mowing business.
Joey noticed that yesterday and mentioned it to Manoj, and got ripped to pieces for it :(
* Added pussy(1) manpage (closes: Bug#62931)
I propose to expell Martin Schulze, because he is proposing to expell fellow developers for minor reasons.
... but if we all throw each other out, only the Cabal (which, of course, doesn't even exist) will be left to run Debian as they please...
Did you read the end of the mail before flaming me a second time?
I lied.
* Culus watches the thread [..] spiral out of control as IWJ drives a tanker truck of Gasoline into the building.
Bug#62981: Emacs abort()s when I click mouse button 6 or 7 in it.
<liw> Virtual beer is money :)
<liw> The term was introduced to the Linux world when the
Oxford Beer Trolls sent me a cheque for converting
into cash for converting into beer I give to Linus.
<rmt> So, this is what an IRCop is like when on drugs.
<Joy> dh_testdir still looks better than test -f debian/rules <Joy> Easier to skip :)
<forcer> gcc -O2 -Dump -Larry -Wall -c fnord.c
8 lines, eh? I'm a more compact programmer than I thought. :-)
<joeyh> Nono, this would be a real alien <wiggy> define `real alien' <doogie> james, wiggy, and culus are 'real aliens'
<james> stu: you're my hero!
* aj would love to see how much bandwidth is used for pr0n <Joy> 45% for pr0n, 45% for mp3, the rest for mirroring Debian :)
Here's the script I used this time for reference. perl -ne '$i=`dpkg --info $_`; $s=$1 if $i=~m/ Section: (.*)/; $p=$1 if $i=~m/ Priority: (.*)/; $pkg=$1 if m:.*/(.*?)_:; print "$pkg\t$s\t$p\n"; $pkg=$p=$s=""'
You gambled and lost.
Q: Why did they deprecate a.out support in linux? A: Because a nasty coff is bad for your elf.
<Culus> I live. I hunger. <Culus> Wait, I just ate.
Even though I once ported Midnight Commander for NT, I now think, that giving OpenSource support for an OS that is commercial is nonsense.
I suspect Linus wrote that in a complicated way only to be able to to have that comment in there.
/* Fuck me gently with a chainsaw... */
Just a quick heads up that I haven't had access to a computer for two days (and yes, my hands _are_ shaking)
Installing Linux is easy. Getting it to truly sing takes artistry.
Somehow I'm skeptical, but hey, I get spammed every 48 hours to buy toner and I don't even own a printer. Sure would be nice if it would stop ;)
<Culus> Has anyone seen james? <james> I think I saw him around here somewhere... not sure where he's gone though.
Perl is worse than Python because people wanted it worse.
Debian has the only potato which if you stick it with a fork may generate zombies
The FreeBSD people just managed to make even less of my removable devices work, so they are losing my support very quickly now.
Debian - even Hell freezes faster
<bma2> The freaking DOOR SECURITY GUARD is coming up to
the 6th floor to ask us linux quesitons.
<bma2> Strange days....
Linux. The dot in /.
Stress is when you wake up screaming and you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet.
[..] that is often FUBAR, and SNAFUs people's inetd.conf entries.
Roland> I was installed in the archive yesterday. Torsten> Cool! Does that mean you are now mirrored worldwide? ;-))
A genuine potato-powered web server. That's potato as in vegetable, not debian distro.
Well, Federico Di Gregorio just offered to design and to print money, [..]
Heh... is this information or propaganda? :)
The problem is that Exchange is slightly braindead (surprise!) [..]
<Robot101> Helix are pissed off... someone at GNOME announced
release 1.2 to /. before their mirrors were synched
<Robot101> Now everyone's banging on the master and none of
the mirrors are gonna synch for ages =)
A simple VB-script was installed more often and faster than Linux during the last decade.
<calc> It is an ongoing joke, potato will be ready once
all the parts in it are obsolete ;)
When in doubt, use brute force.
Argh.. duh. Thanks for being gentle with the clue-stick Alan.
<wiggy> overfiend apologizing? <wiggy> what is the world coming to?
<Overfiend> anyway, I have 4 bugs to report in the SPARC boot-floppies * james_work wonders when #Debian became an alias for submit@b.d.o
We've made our voices heard. The times in which manufacturers of proprietary software alone determine the direction are past.
The Few, The Proud, The Geeks
Open Source is "about being able to work together with people you've never met, on projects that are in a constant state of flux, on a time schedule that would cause a hummingbird's head to spin."
[lotsa doc bugs] Just guessing: you've been experimenting with vbox today? ;-)
I agree, going from Red Hat to Debian is definitely an upgrade.
Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what?
<tigert> eek
<tigert> The linuxppc user guide has information how to
patch the firmware of the machine
I think we should work at supporting a bigger variety of non-free software, which means getting it off our plate and onto the plates of others.
Linux development kernels have so much rope for a stupid user to hang themselves with [..]
We had to run Debian kernels on RedHat boxes as a result of this.
One of our mail spools sits on software RAID on a box unfortunate enough to have been built when we were innocent enough to put RedHat on servers.
If my oracle database lives on a software RAID, I cannot even update to 2.2.16 with some distributions.
If your oracle database lives on a software RAID, you're in the wrong business.
Many people are better off spending another $100 on a faster hard drive than learning to use patch.
Hans, what goes in the kernel has to be done purely on technical grounds.
Get ext3 versus Reiserfs out of your head for god sake. If anything is aiming at the same space its XFS.
This is just a RedHat bureaucratic excuse to delay reiserfs.
Hans, Red Hat has _zero_ control in what I work on with Reiserfs. You know that so stop treating this list as if it is slashdot.
Duh? Hans check your medication hasn't run out.
<Overfiend> There is no way to summarize 1000 messages
Even NASA has succumbed to the "e + (someword)" phenomenon.
Sleep is a poor substitute for caffeine.
If it compiles, ship it.
<chema> We DONT want Linux on every desktop.
We want Free Software on every desktop.
<listen> The signal to troll ratio in here is getting pathetic.
<auspex> *boc* *boc* *boc*, *boc* *boc* *boc*, *boc* *boc* *bocaaaaaaaaaaaaaaw!*
I will not be silenced by legal threats from a meta-organization that doesn't even exist as a legal entity.
In mathematics, the "and" operator is commutative
In a world of NDA-bound business agreements, Debian is an open book.
In a world of mission statements, Debian has a Social Contract.
At a time when commercial distributors are striving to see how much proprietary software they can pack into a box of Linux, Debian remains the bastion of software freedom.
Fix your broken mail server you arrogant twit.
Well, we officially announce the birth of a new Debian Cabal: the Bordeaux Cabal.
To me, [...] is a job, a product to be completed on a schedule. Debian is part of a lifestyle--or at least the subset of my lifestyle that involves computers.
The Klingon approach to rpm vs dpkg: By your implied comparison between debian and redhat, you have challenged my family's honor! PREPARE TO DIE!
There was a fat-finger error in that code.
Why do you think we call things a "package"? Hint: It's not because we're charging London aliens an import duty.
Don't forget that MS-Windows is just a work-around until you can switch to a GNU system.
StarOffice is currently a monolithic suite that takes longer to launch than it takes Microsoft to release a security patch.
The debate about forking apache to handle requests is one thing, but hell, why not just boot your own OS for each request!
Atlantic Fleet officials said the ship was dead in the water for about 2 hours and 45 minutes.
In and out like a pair of teens
<Overfiend> Joey: you've spent so long in the CABAL that you have lost your ability to communicate with plebes
<edward> m2 moved the wnpp into the BTS <wiggy> bastard
<Culus> james: Where are you from then?
<james> Culus: Why would I tell you that? Then you could
actually make jokes that might offend me :-P
Jason> It's disk has failed and it is currently downish. Rob> down_ish_??? Is that like, "sort of pregnant" ?
insmod vi.o and there we go...
<Culus> You know, for things with Moo in the name you'd
expect a whole lot more cows
<Culus> Frankly - I'm disappointed
There are more ways to break Postfix than there are ways to make it work.
There are also sexy lies, which by nature have long legs.
<darkewolf> Hmmms <darkewolf> Why do i have a Kangeroo skull in the bathroom?
I suggest you read up on unix coding practices.
Joey, you're hard core
Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha. Sorry, this was just too beautiful to pass up. Bwa ha ha ha ha ha.
<Culus> aj: Well, your idea can't even express a non-us, main, security archive :P <aj> Culus: we don't *have* a non-US main security archive <Culus> aj: irrelevent detail :P
<Joey> apt: doogie? * apt does the doogie woogie dance * doogie larts apt
<aj> Joey: Anyone ever told you you have too much time
on your hands?
It might be worth noting that Claymore mines are marked "this side towards enemy" on the side that should be, uhm, towards the enemy.
It gets a little muddier in a practical perspective, but here it boils down to "how bad do you want it".
You are a victim of your own success.
<eRich> hat jemand erfahrung mit x4 + nvidia treiber? <eRich> your're too sexy for my shirt? - your're to new for my kernel?
What Happens When Patents Meet Antipatents?
Because it sucks, is insecure and is buggy as hell. Looks like three good reasons, to me.
When we have trouble I just put on the headphones, stare at some impenetrable XFree86 source code and go into a trance until it's over.
<Culus> cmr: Okay.. so uh.. someone I've never heard of has given you root on our boxes, which, till now, I didn't know we had :>
<Omnic> What in the hell is libgc5 ? <wiggy> Garbage collectoin library <Omnic> wiggy: ??!?!? for C? <wiggy> Omnic: yes, why not? * Omnic runs away screaming
Yeah. Maybe we fixed truncate, and maybe we didn't. I've thought that we fixed it now several times, and I was always wrong. Time for some reverse phychology.
Because I'm a bastard, and proud of it!
Are you _seriously_ expecting that non-programmers start using kernel debuggers to send in good bug-reports? Grow up, get a clue, and smell the roses.
Grow up, get a clue, and smell the roses.
You don't backpedal nearly as well as you bitch.
Yep. I installed Suse-6.4 on my laptop. Since I needed APM to work, I recompiled the kernel source that they supplied. First, I just did `make oldconfig` so I could duplicate the existing kernel. Well. No such luck. There was no way in hell I could duplicate the kernel that they supplied, with the sources that they supplied. And there was no secret 'patch' directory either...
Debian continues to remind me of Xanadu -- good vision, sketchy implementation.
I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere.
This device has completely bogus header. Compaq scores again :-| It's a host bridge, but it should be called ghost bridge instead ;^)
Do you still need the Alpha? [masq box] I can ping it but don't know where it is.
I don't need a microphone to hear myself moo.
BTW: Does anyone still use archie? I just installed it after years of non usage and i guess i have problems finding an archie server :)
If you are too low a lifeform to be able to learn how to use the manual page subsystem, why should we help you?
<Overfiend> BenC: knghtbrd is too busy bitching about
GNOME to maintain his packages
If so, I second his nomination. As a member of the Free Software Foundation, he's uniquely qualified as a bureaucrat.
Excel looks so ugly in comparission of the beautiful Gnumeric spreadsheet!
Well, it's usually me walking into the office, with my heart set on finishing up a specific task I've wanted to get done for weeks, and ends up with me having to help an engineer through some design issue that I think will only take a few minutes, but ends up taking all day.
Who stole the links to the translations on the Developer's Corner page?
Programming is like sex; one mistake and you have to support for a life time.
Nonsense. Why let silly things like "facts" get in the way of one's "pragmatism"?
Time to get your MCSE, Christoph?
Prof. Lameter is approved to teach Advanced NT yeah, Unix OS technologies and comparative religions err. operating systems...
Blessed dst-change. I woke up and it was 12:45 pm, came downstairs and it was am again. Very good.
Oh, I've seen copies [of Linux Journal] around the terminal room at The Labs.
Absolutum obsoletum. (If it works, it's out of date.)
Vim is the Emacs among vi's.
Linux includes an improved version of vi, called vim. Apparently the improvement is limited to the length of the name.
You should try building some of the stuff in main that is modern... Turning on -Wall is like turning on the pain.
Therefore, as soon as a company mentions Linux in a positive way, regardless of how insignificant, the slashdot.org crowd throws a virtual equivalent of Mardi Gras.
<wiggy> Is Joy a slimmed down younger version of Joey?
Needless to say there is nothing useful there anyway, but finally I have an actual real sane use for a WAP phone. They are great for debugging PPP configurations.
We're still waiting for the Vatican to officially canonize this kernel, but trust me, that's only a matter of time. It's a little known fact, but the Pope likes penguins too.
And when I don't know of a bug, it doesn't exist.
Find a Corel developer that knows what gpg is... ;)
<Tv> while (<>) { s{<dd><a href="(.+)">.+</a>}{<dd><fileurl "$1">}mg; } or whatever.
<Tv> If it's a one-time hack, don't spend too much time.
<Tv> If it's permanent, don't do anything that sucky.
<Tv> You perl suckily, but on the other hand,
your perl also sucks.
3039 Nov 27 Ian Eure ( 14) massive memory leaks in X 3042 NS Nov 28 Branden Robinso ( 36) >Massive clue leaks in Debian
You know, Overfiend looks like a girl in his progeny.com picture (http://www.progeny.com/people). Whats frightening is that he looks better than most women you see in the computing industry.
Microsoft has been doing a really bad job on their OS.
It takes more time to read Perl code than it does to write it.
As cool as black light might be, it doesn't really help you to *see* things...
This discussion cannot screw up my code freeze and release plan.
<Crow-> @touch /etc/passwd 2>/dev/null || echo Be root you fool. <Crow-> WHAT THE FUCK <Crow-> Thats a makefile rule to determine if you are root during install
A program is either DFSG-free or it is not, a simple boolean test.
<elmo> trueprint_5.1-4_i386.changes <elmo> SKIP (too new) [..] <elmo> blindman: ignore the "SKIP (too new)", just pretend it says "REJECT"
<Overfiend> Will it just fall over and die on non-i386 machines? <Overfiend> That pisses me off. <Overfiend> Other arches need love too.
Where does elmo live?
[ ] a. Garbage can.
[ ] b. openprojects.net.
But as long as Debian users continue to have children, it will have a market :)
Mails in German I generally read with the special mutt 'D'eutschland key.
Here is my favorite from Exchange Client: "Cannot delete this message - not enough disk space."
wish bot sent in a link to a ZD Net story that talks about how Linux distributions are too big. Many valid points... of course IMHO my distribution is exactly the right size, and I apt-get all the bloat if I want it, later.
<Lo-lan-do> Warning, Overfiend alert! Duck everyone!
/* I can't stand it anymore! Please can't we just write the
whole Unix system in lisp or something? */
Not even the mighty force of Debian can change the location of /dev/log.
Hold the conference in France: you can drink alcohol publicly, even near a school, you can piss on the street, you can argue with cops, you can teach Darwin's theory of evolution and you can have sex in public places.
Linux kernel 2.4 got itself at the 4th position in Wired Vaporware 2000 contest!
It's a low volume list, and you've already posted more in the last 24 hours than everyone else did this month.
<Joey> so what :) * Robot101 larts Joey
Ok, so I'm behind on email, but this is giving me cold sweats.
Welcome to our special issue on violence in the workplace, I mean system administration.
Removals are just waiting for James to stop being a party animal and write some more stuff for katie.
I'm getting too geekish in my old age... I used to have a life, but I traded it for a Debian box :)
Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement.
Quite frankly, anybody who uses RedHat 7.0 and their broken compiler for _anything_ is going to have trouble.
We have full klingon console support just in case
WML is the Unix toolkit for getting your webdesigner's HTML job done.
When I get sent anywhere it's to some pathetic excuse for a village in the middle of nowhere in Scotland :/
Oh dear.. THE arm ego-disease has infected cmr
Why is this guy having a conversation with himself on -devel? It's very annoying.
<doogie> Linus uses pine? Don't tell Overfiend.
And it will apparently take some time for the ftp servers to sync up: when I moved the test-kernels away from the main v2.4 directory I didn't think act that the mirror scripts will spend quite a bit of time just synchronizing everything (the fact that _I_ did it with a simple "mv" on the master copies doesn't mean that the mirror services will be able to do it ;)
Heh, Linus needs pools ;-)
Don't use setuid with X
Infelicities in the protocol underlying NFS can cause the unexpected disappearance of files which are still being used.
> Security problem report... > > [root@irongate linux.ac]# RESOLV_HOST_CONF=/etc/shadow ping debian.org > ^^^^^^^^ Remind me not to answer email when asleep.
Great, the company's complaining that they're about to go out of business due to an unrelenting DoS attack and you guys put a link to their site on Slashdot's homepage.
What the FUCK? He obtained ROOT access to the ISPs servers and they couldnt stop him? People - this is fighting the wrong battle. Any Joe Random cracker should NOT be able to obtain ROOT access to ANY server at ANY ISP. Period.
Face it. IRC is the universal home of Those Who Have No Hope Of Ever Having Sex.
<stu> Why is this kernel called 2.4.0? <stu> I thought unstable kernels had odd-numbered minor versions..
* Since debian still relies on /etc/pam.d/ssh instead of moving to /etc/pam.d/ssh, I had to hack ssh.h to get ssh to use this name.
Don't find excuses to ignore bad "features".
# Note that the code is (almost) tail-recursive. # I wish I could write this in Scheme ;) *sigh*, when you see that in a shell script, it is time to HEAD FOR THE HILLS
* shaleh finds a dark alley near where dark works and waits for him * shaleh is going insane fixing lintian
<Viiru> Damn. I should be more careful. I just started
downloading anime into my 2.4.0 source directory.
<Viiru> Because of things like this, my homedir is a hell of a mess.
ME TOO! (I always wanted to say that :-) )
Note that I'm using a non-standard man location (www.debian.org is running FreeBSD :-( ).
I think common sense dictates that something called "cron.daily" is a cron script, don't you?
Someone let me know when Wiggy actually tests a version of dpkg before uploading it.
We don't have a "Law of Joey" [..]
There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast.
<ltd> Knghtbrd: and just because bugs are a year old,
that doesn't mean they aren't fixed :>
<ltd> I tend to use the BTS more as a guide than a religion
Don't forget to check the autoslack package in the unsupported dir: it means the imminent death of all the "Slack lacks apt-get" arguments.
Hey, this just isn't right. I'm meant to be nagging you, not the other way around.
It has recently come to my attention that several developers are using debconf as an excuse to write a quick hack rather than doing things right.
In Debian, capitalism has no place, as there is no currency, and we don't exchange anything.
No, actually, I do mind, I'm sick and tired of being blamed for doogie's mini-Bruce.
I never knew this list was for a specific distro? You're right; it's named "debian-user" for no apparent reason whatsoever.
I'm puzzled! I agree to Craig Sanders.
Every minute and every dollar spent on Plex86 is a win for the free software community and Debian.
Shock! Horror! Are you seriously saying that you think it is acceptable for Debian developers to be unable to program?
Programming did not fall under the requirements of a maintainer, last time I checked.
joeyh: Joey is interested in shoop. How should we scare him?
And the gratuitous use of urgency award goes to... lilo!
lilo (1:21.6-9) unstable; urgency=HIGH
.
* Fix the priority and section of lilo-doc.
Working in Perl is such a relief after 6 hours of UML.
Emacs, not just a way of life but a complete waste of disk space.
Perl is total crack! It kills braincells.
Please. Thanks for catching up on all of these.
Face it. Joey is completely untrustworthy and you shouldn't believe anything he says.
<doogie> bod: Chicks and money can not exist together. <doogie> It's like matter/anti-matter <doogie> Put them together, and you'll soon end up with neither.
I can't believe this! No, actually I can believe it -- this is Debian after all.
Joey, I always respond too seriously to questions like that; You always tend to do it with just hte right amount of sarcasm.
If the maintainer does not know C/C++, then they really have no business packaging a C/C++ program.
The last time I posted that, the DPL told us all to fuck off and resigned.
There are always bugs and always Evil Geniuses(TM) who find them and script kiddies who use them. Such is the way of the net, now and forever.
Who do I have to contact if I want richsalzoids in the next release of quake?
<Joy> what does Demonishi mean anyway? :) <Joey> Joy: female Overfiend :) <Demonishi> Joey: HAHAHA <Joy> Joey: ROTFL
A small flood of security announcements from Debian came in last night and this morning to the LWN.net offices.
Please, save yourself the trouble and don't use Debian.
<Lo-lan-do> joey, doogie: You're crazy. I love that.
We also have a sometimes working majordomo interface.
I think that you have a large capacity for optimism.
A lot of you are getting angry because you are jealous of our security record.
An uniformed life is not worth living.
Tarred, feathered, hung, drawn and quartered would be the logical progression of the task in question. =)
A lot of you are getting angry because you are jealous of our security record. And I bet it makes you even angry to hear it said.
I am sick and tired of your chatty project filled full of chatty flaming closed mailing list assholes.
The following package won't be removed because I'm craven and fear IWJ's wrath.
Bad move. 2.4.1 is incredibly broken and unstable. Stay at 2.4.0 for testing.
Anybody who blindly uses exploit code deserves what they get.
Yup. Its kinda cute.
char const *slash = "/" + (len == 0 || temp_dir[len - 1] == '/');
No, there is OpenSSH and there is OpenSSH. They are not the same.
<weasel> 3.1.0.0 Oct 99 <weasel> 3.2.0.0 Aug 00 <weasel> 3.2.1.1 Jan 01 <weasel> 3.5.0.0 Jan 28 <weasel> Hmm <weasel> Wir haben eine Policy aus der Zukunft
<Viiru> mstone: Ok. Let's just agree to disagree, ok?
I've had too many flamewars today.
Debian needs to "hire" administrative assistants so the quality geek time is not wasted.
<elmo> Oh shit. <elmo> Overfiend: Whatever you do, don't close your ssh session
That explanation sucks big rocks through a needle.
Aieee, I'm maintaining a package written by aliens.
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.
IWJ has a lot of faults, but writing crap English is NOT one of them.
* Tv thwaps joeyh with the changelog cluebat. <Tv> * Gar! Closes: #84219
<Zugschlus> $ echo "la|ber" | sed 's/\|/\|/g' <Zugschlus> |l|a|||b|e|r| <Zugschlus> Hä?
A mathematician is a machine for converting coffee into theorems.
As a general rule: When scary things get scared, big trouble!
<liiwi> Joey: shut up and go back to your coffin. The slayers are near. <liiwi> Joey: erm. sorry. too much Buffy last night.
I agree that SQL is about as exciting as a rotting turnip.
*sigh* You'd think a distribution composed of 6000 packages distributed across 13 different architectures (in various stages between pre-alpha and release quality), maintained by 700 amateurs with often conflicting goals who're globally distributed and have rarely met each other -- you'd think a distribution like that would be simpler...
Yes, very useful. Pretty please with a cherry on top, implement this...
<wiggy> the rasterman virus has taken joey.. <wiggy> lots of typos <wiggy> the sign of raster
I can't accept that "people truly deserve to be insulted".
Anything in Debian main can be used for anti-social behavior, thank goodness.
What's interesting to think about is that what Americans normally call "Free Speech" is not DFSG-free at all. YOUR freedom to speak or write does not give me any freedom to take your words and republish them for profit. I especially cannot modify those words to better fit my own needs.
I have an idea: dupload can make you play moon-buggy, and not let you upload unless you score > 700.
The idiocy of arguing about the idiocy of that article cannot be described.
* liiwi kicks MIME::Parser <BenC> liiwi: Watch it... Perl modules tend to kick back
+ it's DEADJOE, not DEAD_JOEY
<Culus> Do you know what happens to pandora every time
someone puts a billion megabytes of upgrades on it!?
<Culus> Leiden is going to boot us :P
This is the second time reportbug's been mentioned: once by you and once by Joey Hess. If it's so functional, why isn't submit@b.d.o being deprecated for it?
Some days you get the Tiger, other days the Tiger gets you.
<Joey> You caused me grief and pain! <Overfiend> Yeah, well, you paid me back, trust me. <Overfiend> I'm the current "security officer" for Progeny <Overfiend> So you kept me hopping today :-P
<wiggy> This is government <wiggy> Government rarely makes sense
<aaronl> We need a daily message to debian-devel-changes
stating "starting mirror pulse"
<aaronl> ... and another for "finished mirror pulse"
<willy> E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg recieved a segmentation fault.
<Tv> Tie a rubber rabbit on a string -- hours of fun for your dog! :-)
I saw "updates" but somehow my brain read "testing".
I think that is going to be happening already. Several of Alan's change lists in the 2.2.19preX gave credit to both Chris Evans and Solar Designer. ANY time those names show up in the credits it is usually a security related thing...
Hmmm, outlook viri have never affected me.....
Oh, are you implying that Microsoft Lookout! users have some purpose other than serving as objects of ridicule by Linux users? Sorry, didn't realize that. :-)
I may not be able to count, but at least I can spell.
Maciej Stachowiak is a hyper-productive code cowboy
The increasingly misnamed Zope Weekly News has come out with a new issue. Amusingly, it's dated December 6, but, since it covers things like the Zope 2.3.1 release, we're not buying that.
Err, sorry for the misunderstanding, I was trying to make a joke.
I haven't tested this yet, in the best traditions of Linux :-)
<joeyh> oh, shit <joeyh> I just found non-free code in slrn
My 'use once, throw away' alarm is blaring loudly.
I spent years wondering why the Emacs key binds were so weird until I swapped by .uk keyboard for a real one!
To a database person, every nail looks like a thumb. Or something like that."
Is there a good reason why insmod should not call syslog() to log any module that gets installed? Simple: you'll have quite a bit of a problem if you are trying to insmod the module with support for AF_UNIX sockets.
Nobody uses floppies anymore, we should focus on the boot-cd, imho.
Before you flame me, note that I am a GNU Emacs user.
Modal editors require greater abstraction skills. Emacs can be used without those skills.
You might try upgrading to a version of debconf that was released after man climbed down from the trees.
Wheeee, Perl you are such a bloody moron...
Fixed various things, like a single sentence with two colons, seven commas, seven lines, and a pair of parenthesis :))
Joey: You have been referred to me as, "The Debian Dude that gets things done".
OPN is the most ridiculous splitty network I have ever had the misfortune to use.
Is that a stereotype about stereotypes? In which case...
It's a rule of nature that every rule has an exception.
Their is five errers in this sentance.
A group of developers has decided that XFree86 is never going to produce the graphics environment they want [..]
Trying to close an IWJ bug is like trying to raise the Titanic :)
tar: Archive contains future timestamp 1997-02-23 14:44:26 gonzo!joey(pts/0):/tmp/joey> date Sun Sep 9 16:35:50 CDT 1956
Whee, it's nice to join in a middle of a netjoin. You get the feeling of making your way through a door along with a hundred other people.
I like solving global problems rather than just local ones.
Well, it's not *my* fault your automatic scripts broke 142 translated pages.
Geekdom is like the force. It can't be forced on someone. It must come naturally.
#ifdef NOT_A_GODDAMN_YANK
{ 0x10, "Minimise Delay" },
#else
{ 0x10, "Minimize Delay" },
#endif
/* ipchains.c */
Log message: Spellling fix
Joey: When a file says "automatically generated, do not edit" in big letters, why do you edit it?
There is an article on Yahoo! about how Workers are mired in e-mail wasteland. They say employees waste an hour a day managing e-mail.
OK, maybe gint and such are pointless, but they were going for completeness here :). I forgive them.
* Yow! Major upstream weirdness. Do *not* try to print the
documentation when building... Closes: #94660
A more accurate summary would be to say that this list is in hibernation, and a new wave of interest seems to come through here every month or two.
I had seen GUI code in Perl, and it was a spiky mixture of Perl and Tcl that looked even uglier than my own pure-Perl code.
Imagine 5 Joey clones in Debian. *phear* That would be the end of all commercial distributions ;)
We need talent, not manpower!
If we could offer some friendly advice to the Microsoft PR effort, we would suggest an approach such as 'We [Microsoft] welcome competition from the Open Source movement, and through that competition, customers will recognize the superiority of our [Microsoft's] solution.' Instead, they seem to be saying, 'we win when customers have no choices.'
sb> Yes, of course. We are friends. You're not acting like one. Go away, and don't come back.
I am tired of all these messages! Stop posting! - Some Body
Still, Chinese coming up kinda surprised me. (Though someone said it was Japanese -- all Greek to me.)
For an extended, aka "long" description, that sucks rocks (through pipettes).
And it's not even particularly directed at you, it's aimed at any wannabe NMUers out there
With four coloured pens and numerous state diagrams, we overcame the mountain!
Believe it or not, there was once a time when that would have sounded ridiculous.
Right now, it looks to the dispassionate observer that if Ximian is chasing Eazel anywhere, it's in the liquitation derby (with Caldera kindly agreeing to provide the pace car).
* We used to try various strange things. Let's not.
* Joey is not to pester! tbm, go away. * Joy notes Joey has entered a rejection mode :) <Joy> go away everybody :)
* Joy notes Joey has entered a rejection mode :) <Joy> go away everybody :)
So, a non-developer filed a non-bug against a non-package.
The only way that anyone can exert any influence over a Free Software project is by contributing to it.
I've learned that it's not a good idea to try to put facts in the way of people's prejudices. It only upsets them.
Getting corruption in 50MB proprietry format files, written by proprietry programs over a proprietry filesharing protocol sucks.
We note a new triumph for Open Source and Free Software: we have become so serious a competitor to Microsoft that their executives publicly announce their fear.
It's just like an overflow of information. I just skimmed it and my brain had a DoS.
It's starting to sound more like a management bloodbath
The Yopy seems to be practically vaporware . . . vaporhardware
A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of
* dark plays the "1 mbit, 2 mbit, 3 mbit clock" song.
Those who do not study LISP are doomed to reimplement it. Poorly.
This is like sending a `launch commit' message to a nuclear missile
At what point do you return from vacation? Ah, lemme back up. Sanity check: you /do/ return from vacation, right? :-)
Nextra, where the packets can sleep 10secs before they have to go.
Yes, we'll get a clobbered value, but we'll get a _valid_ clobbered value,
/*---. | ? | `---*/
Swapped paragraphs about talks due to Joey suffering from sleep deprivation.
$sorted_langs{$trans{$langs{$_}}{$_}} = $_;
Note to self: don't borrow from Swedish if you can't remember to modify the spelling of _all_ the words.
My mother loved children. She would have given anything if I had been one.
Linux is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches.
Yeah! One day I'll be a Makefile guru.
dpkg is bad for your health, that's what geek mothers always say
Government funding should be for work that is available to everybody. Open source is not available to commercial companies.
<Joy> Joey: great minds think alike ;)
$tv->stop_hacking('jpilot'); no lights; no music; push @futon, $tv; $brain = pop @tv; chomp $brain;
Debian today announced that they have 100K bugs in their system but no longer have any idea what they are.
This package contains the SDL-version of the Abuse game engine. It requires a mouse.
Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool.
Sinclair: "No boom?"
Garibaldi: "No boom."
Ivanova: "No boom today. Boom tomorrow.
Always a boom tomorrow."
Features: The Return of Microsoft
The rise and rise of Linux
apt is a Debian native package that everyone thinks they know how to do better; it attracts insane wishlist bugs like it attracts shit to flies.
<Christian> Joey: are you simply the cabal? :P
It is a difference between knowing the path and going the path.
Follow the white rabbit.
There is no spoon.
GUARD THE MONITOR BOX WITH YOUR LIFE. DO NOT LEAVE IT ON THE SHOW FLOOR.
"640kB ought to be enough" --Bill G., 1984 "The Internet is not a primary goal for PC usage" --Bill G., 1995 "Linux has no impact on Microsoft's strategy" --Bill G., 1999
Since it is a list with two points, mark it up as a list with two points.
It was only one commit per mess, the first was the sync.
In fact Denis has come up with something sufficiently evil that looks like it will do the trick.
Have fungi always been this mean and we're just figuring it out, or have we been invaded by super-fungi?
This is what RISC could be proud of in those days. Unfortunatelly, the Dark Side kind of catched up within the last couple of years..
The modern technology for scientific publishing, however, is the World Wide Web. What rules would best ensure the maximum dissemination of scientific articles, and knowledge, on the Web? Articles should be distributed in non-proprietary formats, with open access for all.
Articles should be distributed in non-proprietary formats, with open access for all.
We're not a company, we just produce better code at less costs.
*** Unknown CTCP IHAVEVERYGOODENGLISHSKILLSBUTYOUAPPEARTOHAVEMEONIGNORE from DanielS to Joey:
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
We have the mbox files... I don't know if it's okay to send them to you, they're huge, might cause a MTA DoS.
Think of it and implement a better strategy, I'm running out of cpu cycles and memory.
The Debian Truth Ministry has changed the English word "autobuilder" to "buildd".
<!--German Translators should put a "real" intro in here-->
My daughter has just grown into "little monster" mode.
The default untranslated value for new tags is supposed to be English, not Norwegian/Danish/whatever.
foo! What kind of moron did this?
<manty> I'll continue trying to debug this after the shower,
don't switch your channel ;-)
Debian: All the power, no red hats, no green chameleons.
Did we do something to upset you guys? Although, I can't think of anything that would cause you to unleash your marketing droids upon us...
Don't blame me, I'm on vacation...
There are more Lance drivers than there are architectures
I really *hate* to see so many different implementations. That counts to about 21..25 pieces of code, always written for the same thing.
It's called "unstable", not "root-kit delivery device".
Hey. Don't drag my package in for usage in your hypothetical scenarios.
If you doubt my words, read my changelog sometime.
I have no problem with you updating a Debian mirror, but please only update it on a daily basis instead of every second.
It's plainly obvious now that the technical term for them is "dorks".
Save the bandwidth for the windoze email worms.
Speedstep is voodoo.
In the first place, God made idiots. This was for practice; then he made school boards.
Thanks for all the submissions, you're awesome!
Now we stop flogging a dead horse and take you back to our regular programming.
* The Edward-and-Colin-are-at-HAL-and-I-am-not NMU
Hi, I'm too fucking stupid to understand a 15-year old RFC, so please file a proper bug report on punched cards. Thanks.
Yeah, but I suggested autofiling bugs that time; I downgraded it to `send nastygrams' :_)
Actually, the Debian glibc package has more uptodate bits than our CVS tree.
We have a lack of testing though, which is what we rely on people like you for.
<seeS> So you are in "the state that is Joey"
Nothing is fool-proof to a sufficiently talented fool.
Perl itself is usually pretty good about telling you what you shouldn't do.
GNU operating system, as well as its variant, the GNU/Linux operating system.
No caffeine was used in the production of the SFS software.
I have authorized _none_ of the third-party patches that are available for my software. Most of those patches are garbage.
Btw: Is this the standard answer, are you a bot that parse mail and install required packages.
Look again.
Joy: Joey is for once saying exactly what he means ;)
#!/usr/bin/perl -l
@ARGV=$0;$x=###+H}
99;while(<>)##,+Jt
{$y=0;$a[####{_n#n
$y++][$x]#=",)$i=i
=$& while#_H";(s)r
/./g;$x--#$ 8r*2p
}map{$g.=#;YS=t8,;
"\n".join#(ESxs39'
'',@$_}@a#rOE b+/
;eval $g# oJ"_u9y
######## f".$s3$'
And is anyone volunteering to _do_ something on this subject, or are we just going to agree with each other for the next two weeks?
* lilo wants to package Joey * lilo ducks <wiggy> instant joey * robster is towards NM and an OPN admin, hhm <lilo> joey-in-a-box? <rcw> just add water?
Write a fucking manual! I'm tired of reading the source.
I am probably hopelessly naïve.
Humans are destined to be party animals, and the technology will follow.
<liiwi> asuffield: Just shell is enough. <liiwi> Though, if I can get moshez to squirrel, I'll do it in Perl :P
The only way I know how to describe it is that all the stars in the heavens lined up.
When you have to determine why things went wrong you need to know how they work.
No feedback equals no changes!
You are a legend. Christian Purnomo about Joey
Life sucks. And it does it good.
The only thing you can't do with open-source software is make monopoly profits.
At least, thanks to open source, the technology doesn't die with the company.
All you apt-get are belong to us. dist-upgrade now for great honour.
The debmentor leads the debmented.
He was such a good leader, we call him Dr. Debmento.
Debmentos freshness! Apt-get full of life!
I'd really like higher charisma to increase my programming skills, since Charisma is strongly bound to the level of magic one can use to produce good looking, well working code.
Only one question: Why Scheme and not (for example) tcl/tk, C, PHP?
We fight, angle for superiority, and generally act like animals fighting for dominancy.
Cool, that makes us very close to a primitive male-dominated tribe. Perhaps we could get a couple of sociologists study our cult?
Gee, from what you said it seems like Debian is a jungle...
BagelMouse: Debian policy, porn, same thing.
On the one hand im sorry for spamming, on the other hand I still wanna point out that Bush's actions are not OK (and everything else but as holy as he always pretends to be...)
And I thought Debian users were smart enough not to reply to chain letters.
I love users who bitch about 'apt-get upgraded everything and stuff actually loads that i didn't want to. I deleted the init.d files though! RedHat didn't do this!'
Err... don't you think this could be spam eventually? I've got eight of them in my inbox, received within hours.
* joeyh just has problems with checking spam into cvs and mirroring it all over the place which is what I do with my normal mail archives.
*** Closing Link: disconnecting from stoned server.
I misread the question... So the answer does not make any sense.
In the days when qmail was something new, lots of people shared horror stories about sendmail sending out a weekly announcement, never finishing the last one before a newer one was already sent, piling up mail...
Our mean time between failures is more than a thousand years.
Need to lobby for 36 hour days.
* michaelw does the buildd shuffle
<DanielS> Hrm, so why am I getting apache@pdo mail? <Joey> Well... because the system is broken...
<BenC> auric's disks are for DAM/ftpmaster to store their pron <BenC> Oops... That was top secret
Debian is not deadrat. If a user can't figure out what kind of mouse they have, they need to find a less complex occupation. Like knitting.
<BR> Joey, the RaQ runs <BR> Joey, just can't debootstrap it <Joey> Need more input <Bacchus> Yes, # 5 :)
Writing everything for the dumbest user will be insulting and irritating to everybody else.
<michaelw> "Debian GNU/LINUX Version 2.4.0" <michaelw> ... YOU BASTARDS! didn't tell me ;( <michaelw> *shrug* i can buy it off ebay...
A good solution now is better than a perfect solution tomorrow.
<BR> Joey, the RaQ runs <BR> Joey, just can't debootstrap it <Bacchus> BR: Quick, catch it!
I'm sorry, what was that again? I couldn't hear you over the sound of the flushing toilet.
Sorry, Clint, I don't have a time machine.
I'm tired of all this beating around the bush.
What is the point of your participation in this thread? If you have something to say, come right out and say it.
You spelled Debian without ucfirst(), twice!
<Joy> Doh. Why didn't CQ tell me this... <CQ> Dunno. You never asked? :)
<Omnic> *monitor off*
...
<StevenK> Omnic probably sits and waits for 5 minutes after he says
'*monitor off*'
<Omnic> do not
Hrmmm thats a whole whack of shell mumbo jumbo.
I heard UGT was Universal Greeting Time -- Convention established specifically for #mipslinux. It states that it is always morning when person comes in, and it is always evening when person leaves. Local time of any member of channel is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. Your ass will be laminated.
# apt-get install package # # damn it broke my server again!! # apt-get rewind package
He doesn't want the maintainer involved at all, except to sit by helplessly and get flooded with emails notifying him that his package has been modified yet again.
While we're on the subject, can you get someone to translate your mails into a comprehensible dialect of English?
Creating more dependencies is a Bad Thing(tm).
I like the US government, makes the Aussie one look less dumb and THAT is a pretty big effort.
However, just because a designer uses menu selection, form filling, and dialog boxes, there is no guarantee that the interface will be appealing and easy to use.
* dark wonders if debian-keyring is competing with XFree86 for the longest changelog prize.
* Lo-lan-do assumes people are observing a minute of silence every minute and a half.
Dazed and confused, but trying to continue.
And you got a college degree with such discerning perceptual ability?
You know, it's okay if people don't want to package home-built utilities, but when they then snark at those who are forced to recreate them, it's kind of mean.
Indeed, people are criticized even by members of the Technical Committee for not knowing about undcoumented rules or procedures.
A host's a host from coast to coast. but noone talks to a host thats close, unless the host (that isn't close) is busy hung or dead.
<Oskuro> Overfiend: many patches on top of 4.0.1 already? <Overfiend> Oskuro: a few <Overfiend> only 152 megs
* Overfiend still thinks Xu should be forced to rename ash to "xush"
Xerox is probably still wondering why everyone is interested in their trash cans.
Then why don't you just write a driver for it then, or shut up.
I'm not polite to pathetic wanker parasites who refuse to blow their own nose much less rtfm, or read the fucking list archives.
I'm also not polite to useless pieces of shit who troll this list when they should be slobbering on some MacOS list instead of wasting our time.
You are so dense it makes me gasp for breath.
Either we'll have something new for policy to address, or Santiago will have to stop his campaign of bug terrorism.
Don't worry - It's just the backdoor that the u.s. gov't requires for all crypto software.
Rule 123 of package upgrades: Just because apt-listchanges has shown you the changelog doesn't mean the package is installed yet, dumbfuck.
Joey: Spelling is fine, but that word makes no sense there.
All members of the Security Team have other important things to do and still don't know how to fork(2) themselves.
* Overfiend is curious what Joey multitasks these meetings with.
aumix: error opening /dev/mixer: Success
This kind of limitation can lead administrators to do irrational things, like install Windows. Clearly a fix was required.
Human knowledge belongs to the world.
Emacs - Emacs Makes Any Computer Slow.
PHP - People Hate Perl
EDV - Experimentelle Daten Verarbeitung
* Joy slaps hmh and Joey around with a fish or something
<doogie> Subject: ->Have Bigger Breasts -- Men will Notice! (140949) <doogie> Yeah, that's for me!
Ahh! It wasn't clear that $list was a variable.
* Hacked debian/rules to cope with new xmkmf breakage.
PNG is pronounced "ping".
There we go. Pity, I had to use a symlink forest to make courier work with my mail folder setup.
I need to look at the code, it's doing something funky that resisted every trick I tried.
* joeyh thinks it's probably a bad sign when mutt begins threading your spam
Another monumental step forward for Linux: The SirCam virus now works on Linux via WINE.
Joey likes to be pedantic about escaping the newline inside links, so I'm doing it.
However, the more people are involved, the more coordination has to be done.
Hey, Joey's not the demigod around here
But but but, it was ordered by age, and that was useful...
All software should be free.
Mathematicians are experts at presenting formal things informally, including all the relevant things and excluding all the irrelevancies.
Responsibility is for lowly creatures like package maintainers.
Yes. I am developing Manoj Srivastava syndrome in my old age.
* Overfiend still thinks Xu should be forced to rename ash to "xush" <Overfiend> Thus clearing the way for the real ash to be packaged.
Passwords are like underwear: Don't share them, hide them under your keyboard, or hang them from your monitor. Above all, change them frequently.
The idea is to spell words like "colour" instead of "color", not to write the ls man page in iambic pentameter.
<Joey> However, the more people are involved, the more coordination has to be done. <Joy> And considering we're all antisocial disobliging SoBs, this is a fatal flaw.
Joey's just worried that too many people can get a hold of his "token".
Um. Have you read the list the last few weeks?
Hmm... auric is down, so let's upload libc6 to non-US.
Microsoft's relationship to its users is that of the blue whale to krill.
<dark> 8 is the _only_ tab width. All else is delusion. * liiwi moves 8 characters away from dark
If I wanted to be obnoxious alone I wouldn't have come on IRC.
# apt-get install joey Reading Package Lists... Done Building Dependency Tree... Done E: Couldn't find package joey
Crap can work. Given enough thrust pigs will fly, but it's not necessary a good idea.
Be happy, you got a reply...
Could you rename it to something less generic? We have too many deb* and *lint tools already.
In personal conversations with technical people, I call myself a hacker. But when I'm talking to journalists I just say "programmer" or something like that.
Computer programmers never die, they just get lost in the processing.
It's kind of hard to use Debian without becoming active in it's development.
In case anyone cares, I finally fixed the PCX-T' link in the hardware database. I've only known about it for 18 months or so...
Hey, I can point things out all day, and look like I'm doing something... Don't shoot me down.
Why does the automake maintainer sound so... New-maintainer-ish?
I completely agree with anything elmo says.
Open your mind, and your ass will follow.
I don't want a penis jammed into my mind, personally...
If you continue, and the level of irritation mounts, you will get ``retaliatory actions''. No one really wants that.
Remind me never to cancel an Abiword build before it generates the main makefiles. Then the debian/rules clean target fails on the next build and there's a bunch of crap in the diff. I have to build it fully twice to get it back to a good state.
I hope you learn speaking English proper I hope speak I me you.
I don't own a donkey.
When enocountering Overfiend for the first time, be firm and strong. Only by not giving ground and going insult for insult you will earn his respect.
People, take a rest, grow up etc. You know how Overfiend behaves, so this is nothing which wasn't anticipated.
So your idea of debugging a system which composes of 300+ threads is to run a separate debugger for each process.
Please do not troll on this mailing list. That's what slashdot is for.
<two-face> Are there IRC clients for vi? <Overfiend> two-face: Why are you ALWAYS on crack? <Overfiend> Is it something in the water where you live?
<haggie> Moin Joey <Joey> Moin haggie & Feanor <Feanor> ahem, what's moin mean? <o-o> Feanor: Northern Germany universal greeting
People must change especially if you are in a thing called free software movement, it's about cooperation and not about flamewars.
It's a sign of the incredible levels of trust and cooperation in Debian that debian-ctte has been used as infrequently as it has.
Code should be readable first, and efficient second.
Routines that work the opposite of their name are just problems waiting to happen.
I believe we have an expectation that pdc_* calls return PDC_ error codes.
No wonder people don't see Ian for months at a time, he's off talking to himself!
fortune: bad juju in is_existant: Permission denied
* StevenK quotes DanielS out of context. <Overfiend> I'm not sure DanielS *has* context...
It's slower than lead to start, which is bad enough, but its splash screen essentially locks my display while it's thinking about considering pondering the possibility of maybe getting its ass off the ground.
Nearly every CPU other than x86 would be cheaper in mass production. Unfortunately, mass production seems not to happen.
I will "shout it from the mountain tops" if any non-dpkg developer dpkg is uploaded. Period.
<aj> You'd have to convince wiggy. <doogie> I had to convince him to do .17 <doogie> He wanted to upload HEAD
Again, I am but a humble man slave, I know not the spellings of such big and cumbersome words.
Congratulations, you have just passed the `DJB debating' exam.
*** eXorZist has been kicked off channel #debian.de by Alfie (< I See U - I kick U >)
echo "Your stdio isn't very std."
<Joey> *** Joey is joey@luonnotar.infodrom.org (Martin Schulze) <Joey> *** Joey[tm] is joey@luonnotar.infodrom.org (Martin Schulze) <Joey> I'm finally cloned.
I can generally manage all personal email and about 100 mailinglists in about 2 hours a day, it's just a matter of doing it efficiently.
When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. --Sherlock Holmes
Why don't you tell everyone who sends you the extra copies that you'd like to "opt-out" of their mailing service?
Perl modules tend to have nicely hierierachical layout and good descriptive names (except for when they don't)."
Remember, folks, Hurd had been started by people who not only don't understand UNIX, but detest it. ITS/TWENEX refugees.
In short: just say NO TO DRUGS, and maybe you won't end up like the Hurd people.
Alan: You are trying to solve a non problem with a non solution Mikulas: I asked Linus, not you :-/
Seriously though, I think they're all in shock over the "SPI actually doing something" post [..]
And the OPN operators couldn't put the network back together again...
I recommend just being sickeningly polite to him.
Indeed, I spend my whole days searching for Branden's communications and making a point to disagree with him.
Not all upstream requirements make sense. We routinely override upstream choices.
Yes, improvement is good, but in this case what you want to do is a huge step backwards and not forwards.
The first draft of stuff I write is usually crap so I'd rather not embarass myself in front of the entire world just yet.
To be honest, I think your chances are somewhere halfway between 0 and NULL.
On the eighth day, God invented the setuid bit because the security group felt useless. On the ninth day he invented POSIX saved uids because they started whining about how boring buffer overflows were.
<erno> Hmm. I've lost a machine... literally _lost_.
It responds to ping, it works completely, I just
can't figure out where in my apartment it is.
This strikes me as quite short-sighted.
I think we can safely say that Apache isn't being maintained.
Slashdot is truely useless for things like this except as a somewhat useful tool to draw attention to something.
Last time I saw output like this was on a machine whose disc was making very painful noises as it attempted to spin up.
No, that says you can't sue Sun. You can't sue Debian anyway; it doesn't legally exist.
Before Branden jumps down my throat, I'm not suggesting that he or anyone has done so, but historic behaviour is no guide to future performance.
It's triple good if M$ puts advs. on linuxtoday 1. M$ will have less money 2. LinuxToday will have more money 3. we can laugh on it
But I'm sure ftp-master would not let me do that. They always forbid funny stuff.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n] y debconf: (not preconfiguring packages since apt-utils is not installed)
UUnet's so large that it's statistically impossible for all of its parts to be functioning simultaneously.
There is no manpage for configure, but I guess that is expected, as it is a "constructed" program.
On the eighth day, God invented the setuid bit because the security group felt useless.
On the ninth day he invented POSIX saved uids because they started whining about how boring buffer overflows were.
I've wasted a lot of time trying to find this kind of document in google, hotbot and so on. Let me add some keywords to help people finding it: true dual-head, multi-user support, XFree86 [..]
There's no security by obscurity and security is a process.
Remember, as satisfying as expressing your anger, frustration, and/or annoyance with a bug may be, filing additional reports just forces the maintainer to spend time doing bug triage that could be spent preparing a fixed package.
As I understand it, the Strider & Trailways boxes were PA-upgrades for m68k boxes.
The guys at Sun have had their brains damaged by the radiation from Scott McNealy's teeth.
Local root exploit in most kernels, you're fucked. Kiss your uptimes goodbye.
I'm so terribly sorry but I can't watch buildds 24 hours a day, so there is _some_ delay between the build finish and me processing the log.
This has been documented in historical systems as both "modeline" and as "modelines". Regardless of the name, this option represents a security problem of mammoth proportions, not to mention a stunning example of what your intro CS professor referred to as the perils of mixing code and data. Don't add it, or I will kill you.
It was a data entry error on my part.
Even if we don't believe that this could lead into somebody gaining access of another users account if he hasn't lost his brain, we recommend that you upgrade your nvi packages. Debian Security Advisory 085-1
I don't have any paid tech support that replies that quickly.
Your first thought should not be to take over a package, so you can fix the bugs. Your first thought should be to fix the bugs, and send the appropriate info to the existing maintainer.
You didn't answer my questions so I didn't answer yours.
Don't start at the end, start at the beginning.
We should remove all the packages except one, then! Emacs does all!
If it was really useless, it wouldn't be written.
It's a tool chain problem which will be fixed shortly and all relevant packages rebuilt; ignore it.
I was obviously smoking something funny.
Throwing artifical barriers at this office isn't going to add volunteers.
We are permitted to refer to UNIX -- when we say our software is better, we're just not allowed to say it is UNIX.
o Security fixes
Details censored in accordance with the US DMCA
Rebuilt against the new expat, which UNEXPECTEDLY BROKE BINARY COMPATIBILITY
The "Bert is Evil" release
<Overfiend> OW OW OW OW OW, Jesus CHRIST. We're supposed to be
FROZEN and our LIBC and BINUTILS are maintained by
CVS ADDICTS whose LEFT HAND is SUPERGLUED to their DICKS.
<Overfiend> * New upstream version (synced with CVS 2001-10-21) <Overfiend> HE'S GOT BEN COLLINS DISEASE
<Overfiend> "*PANT* *PANT* YEAH BABY!!!! FRESH COMMITS TO CVS!!!!" *PANT* *PANT*
<Alfie> ls -l `which YaST`: /usr/sbin/YaST -> /usr/games/fortune
Yes, that was actually kind of fun. The blank message to every console was an amusing reminder that your secure box had just frustrated some script kiddie.
<Shaleh> Watch out Xu, we're coming for YOU! <Herbert> Don't worry, I'm already armed to the teeth...
<elmo> No IRC nick?? What a nobody!!
There are days when I feel I should introduce myself saying: "Hi, I'm from the license pedanticists, or I mean debian,"
Your logical reasoning skills are as poor as your shell scripting, apparently.
If by "hacker crowds" you mean expert technologists who care about things like quality of implementation, and care more about the actual content than the presentation, well, yeah I'd expect Debian is pretty much restricted to hacker crowds.
Do we *really* need to be wasting more bandwidth bitching about people wasting bandwidth?
I'll bring the Double-Woody if you bring the cake!
* doogie sets topic for... <Overfiend> GAR, DOOGIE YOU OVERFLOWED THE TOPIC BUFFER IN MY DICKLESS IRC CLIENT <doogie_> not my problem.
Thanks a lot for doing this job which no one should have to do.
<Joey> Ok, we're fucked, damn!
<StevenK> Joey: Damnit, stop making sense!
Seems like I spend half my life either figuring out what weird thing Exim has just done to my mail on machines I don't own, or replacing Exim with Postfix on the ones I do.
Both XFree86 and Debian have release cycles measured in geological time.
<mhp> Bluehorn: The Cabal (TINC) have all the chicks.
Shall we next have a GR that says:
[ ] I accept that the sky is blue, and that things that my attempt to pass
though it (such as aeroplanes and rockets) must obey the law of gravity.
?
Legislating where you can and can't talk about Debian issues is bureaucracy gone mad.
Quoting doogie: "No. No. No. If we do this, dpkg can't be ported to ENIAC. No. No. No. No."
The trouble with lawyers is getting them back in the bottle...
<Overfiend> Updated build log libdvdread2_0.9.1-5_m68k for unstable (successful) <Overfiend> heh. What a cock tease of a package <Overfiend> D00D!!! I'll be able to watch DVD's on my MACQUARIUM!
* DanielS can't believe he's been 4 days without IRC. <DanielS> but it's been about the most productive 4 days of my life.
Changes by: ralf@oss.sgi.com
Log message:
Merge with Linux 2.1.13.
I felt we are going back to stone age
* Alfie hates it when his lazyness is handicaped.
What happens when someone goes to sleep?
<wiggy> Joy is Xu'ing klecker!
<Joey> Joey, provide a patch then.
<Ian> I plan to be there. I shall wear a 12 foot long orange scarf. <Steve> Ian - this happened last Friday!
* elmo beats on ljlane <elmo> kdebindings build-depends on libgtk1.3-dev? Err...
-Werror brings out the crap
Upstream doesn't compile for 12+ architectures with an annoyingly new glibc on 3 different compilers.
It's a popular practice on the Debian lists these days to confuse people's personal opinions with official Project dicta, so pay attention.
Respecting authorship is a pillar of the Open Source philosophy.
Works best if everyone is forced to publish the source code of software they distribute.
The GPL is there to protect your freedom, not to restrict it.
Dselect has been the bug-a-boo scaring novice users from installing Debian.
It seems Apple's new iTunes 2 installer deletes the contents of users' hard drives if the drives have been partitioned. I personally lost more than 100gb of data.
Don't flame a user, no matter how clueless you feel they are, it won't help.
You know, we have just under 13k open bugs now? A few years ago we were getting down towards 5k...
Oh I hate this damn computer. I wished they would sell it. It never do quite what I want but only what I tell it.
SPAM I am. Oh, SPAM I am. I do not like receiving SPAM. I do not like it with green eggs or ham. I do not like that SPAM I am.
I consider myself a friend of Debian. They are the nice people who gave me an enjoyable operating system, thereby returning control of my computer to me.
Instead of a showcase for Free Software, SourceForge is now a demo site for non-free software.
I hate it when I accidentally reboot the wrong machine. 106 days uptime down the drain :(
That leaves me. But I don't want to believe that I founded that channel as well. Don't start believing that without a certain proof.
"ultractritical -- matters to BlindMan and the few people he knows"
Maybe it is time for the kernel development process to take a cue from the Debian Project. Debian development does not stop when a release is frozen; the development and stabilization processes go on in parallel. Debian is no faster than the kernel at producing new major releases, but those releases, when the finally come, tend to be solid. The continued presence of an unstable release relieves the temptation to throw inappropriate thing into the frozen version.
dieman is just doing a knghtbrd...
By incorrectly tagging this bug grave, you just moved it to the complete bottom of my todo list.
Not even trying to collaborate with the maintainer of the parent package is shooting yourself in the back.
Tell people to RTFM and administer their boxes. Sorry, welcome to unix.
It resembles German, even... Oh, I get it, it's all an Evil Joey plot!
I meant Evil Joey(TM), as in, the evil Joey.
We are the apt. You will be packaged. Resistance is futile.
<Kamion> Package: vrms <Kamion> Maintainer: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> <canard> Package would be renamed to arms, actual RMS
I'm running the RedHat 7.1 distribution and can export a Gnome or KDE desktop from the printer to any other X capable box.
The purpose of this museum is to provide a shelter for strange, unwanted, malformed packets - abandoned and doomed freaks of nature - as we, mere mortals, meet them on twisted paths of our grand journey called life.
This is totally insecure but very convenient.
I hope the brokenness didn't sneak back in.
The force was strong yesterday.
I'm lazy. I not only admit it, I'm proud of it.
And how would you automate that? Oh, wait, you can't. Ding. Back to square one.
Oh, btw, you don't speak for Debian either David. There, wasn't that a helpful, relevant and useful comment?
So before you start ranting and raving and bringing Title IX lawsuits against, for example, the m68k porting team, inhale a deep breath of reality.
I'd like to suggest that someone fix the (fairly trivial) RC bug on Mozilla, and then take Kitame on a 2 week carribean cruise, antarctic expidition, vegas gambling spree, camping trip, wild rave, or similar fun activity that will keep him from uploading any more until the thing can finally get into testing. I'm not one to talk, but this Mozilla situation is rediculous.
* Joey needs an Overfiend to nuke frankie <StevenK> AN OVERFIEND? WE HAVE MORE THAN ONE!??
Grr, changed the write_ps2 function to be more, tolorant, of really really broken mice which reply with 2 ACKs instead of 1 for setting sample rate.
* the "Wise Lord Ahura-Mazda, Hear My Prayer" release
Error: /usr/bin/savelog not found. Are you sure you're running a Debian system? :-)
<Joey> I guess I should frighten now. <Joey> +tinc 655/tcp # tinc control port <Joey> If that isn't a sign of cabal... * liiwi hands Joey a mug of warm glög and tells him to calm down.
DVD encryption isn't about stopping "piracy", and never was.
Show me a web app that can't be served from a Pentium 100 and I'll show you a dead dot-com.
If you want to be a platform vendor, and you want developers to invest alongside of you, your platform needs to be open source. This in fact has been true for the last vew years.
The real problem we face with the Web is not understanding the anomalies, it's facing how deeply weird the ordinary is.
Or I'll start talking about Dalis and Meridian and your tongues will be flapping on the ground.
Perhaps we could make it more verbose by implementing a COBOL shell.
If users are made to understand that the system administrator's job is to make computers run, and not to make them happy, they can, in fact, be made happy most of the time. If users are allowed to believe that the system administrator's job is to make them happy, they can, in fact, never be made happy.
I'm sorry, man, but taking advice from anyone with such a 1337 name is just too overpowering for me.
U DONT HAVE 2 BE SUM LEGAL DEB1AN GEN1UZ 2 NOW THAT A WIN32 PORT IZ K-RAD + WIL GREATLY INCREASE MY L33T FACTUR.
Bzzzt. You lose points for forgetting how to spell my name despite the fact that we've communicated dozens of times before.
To reduce traffic, please do not answer this mail.
I'll be there, and look really cute and friendly so that I'll be offered a place to sleep...
No actual penguins were harmed during the production of this site.
Don't write self-modifying code, let the computer do that for you.
Cambridge-Poker: You can introduce new rules, but you can't tell them to the others.
Cambridge-Poker hat self-modifying Rules.
I may change my opinion, but that does not change the fact, that I'm right.
Here at the first real international (GNU)/Linux Kongress we figured out that pouring Grolsch beer into vim'sex amples does not yield the expected results.
Well, for an Emacs user it is not a surprise, but most other folks here are thinking it is indeed RC that maze.c is not able to run without a SEGV using a plain gcc 2.95.4 even when using arguments as low as 42.
What should we do, all the Debian maintainers drinking the berr belonging to me are really surprised about that strange and annoying bug.
BTW, apt-get install teco does also not work
what the Hell is this Debian thing on my computer? I didnt authorize anyone to install it.
<RevKrusty> Any HPPA ppl around? <RevKrusty> Ack... mipsel's compiler croaking trying to build kdemultimedia...
Engineering does not require science. Science helps a lot but people built perfectly good brick walls long before they knew why cement works.
I'm very interested too, though I'll have to agree with Larry that Linux really isn't going anywhere in particular and seems to be making progress through sheer luck.
Too much control of the evolution will kill you.
We humans have never been able to replicate something more complicated than what we ourselves are, yet natural selection did it without even thinking.
Don't underestimate the power of survival of the fittest.
And don't EVER make the mistake that you can design something better than what you get from ruthless massively parallel trial-and-error with a feedback cycle. That's giving your intelligence much too much credit.
Quite frankly, Sun is doomed. And it has nothing to do with their engineering practices or their coding style.
Being able to influence not just selection, but actually influencing the mutations that happen directly obviously cuts down the time by another large piece.
Why do you think Linux ends up being the most widely deployed Unix? It's avoided niches, it's avoided inbreeding, and not being too directed means that it doesn't get the problems you see with unbalanced systems.
Try to prove me wrong.
Software evolves. It isn't designed.
The only question is how strictly you control the evolution, and how open you are to external sources of mutations.
Too much control of the evolution will kill you. Inevitably, and without fail. Always. In biology, and in software.
You aren't needed and *you* just proved it.
The reason I'm doing Linux is not because I think I'm "needed". It's because I enjoy it, and because I happen to believe that I'm better than most at it.
Grow up, Larry. You give me too much credit.
And yes, I actually do believe in what I'm saying.
Ok. There was no design, just "less than random mutations". Deep.
I'm not claiming to be deep, I'm claiming to do it for fun.
I am claiming that the people who think you "design" software are seriously simplifying the issue, and don't actually realize how they themselves work.
"Design" is like a religion - too much of it makes you inflexibly and unpopular.
The very architecture of UNIX has very much been an evolution. Sure, there are some basic ideas, but basic ideas do not make a system.
When they say that the devil is in the details, they are trying to tell you that the details matter. In fact, the details matter quite a lot more than the design ever does.
Too strong a strong vision can kill you - you'll walk right over the edge, firm in the knowledge of the path in front of you.
And I'm a firm believer that in order for this to work well, you have to have a development group that is fairly strange and random.
If you make a formally correct implementation of the base TCP RFC you won't even make connections.
Right now given two chunks of code, I find out what happens by putting them together not by formal methods.
Hey, wait, I thought actual, real-world instances of documentation with licensing issues was a bunch of smoke I cooked up to promote my monomanical enterprise. Damn, it's actually got merit. Really ruins my day.
Err, no, sorry, I don't have an opinion at all.
This message brought to you by the "if the deaf person can't hear you, just shout louder" department.
More dead-duck than greased-turkey.
This message brought to you by the "shout just because Branden is shouting" department.
You, Sir, have an evil sense of humor.
It's not nice to taunt people with anger-management issues.
Subject: sed -n '26s/ -n\(.*\)/\1\./p' /etc/init.d/sysklogd
I have had to throw away many documents because their authors disappeared and we had no legal right to them, and they were too outdated to be useful.
Hey, wait, I thought actual, real-world instances of documentation with licensing issues was a bunch of smoke I cooked up to promote my monomanical enterprise.
<wiggy> NNNNOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooo <wiggy> typo in debian/rules clean <wiggy> it zapped debian/rules itself <wiggy> 150 lines of code gone :(
Damn, it's actually got merit. Really ruins my day.
Whether certain language is legally binding or not is always a determination that will have to be made by a human.
Herding cats comes to mind. Herding a few cats is difficult. Herding 700+ is daunting. Herding 700+ confused ones...
By offloading the calulation to the downloaders, you are increasing overall worldwide electricity consumption!
Tempest for Eliza is a Program that uses your computer monitor to send out AM radio signals. You can then hear computer generated music in your radio.
DVD encryption isn't about stopping "piracy", and never was. It's about laying the foundation for a future rewrite of Title 17 of the United States Code in which the term "Fair Use" does not appear.
I have a problem with iptables which in turn is causing lots of hair loss...
You know, if debs were really better than rpms, all Debian tools would be distributed as debs...
<liw> I greet you, oh godlings
<Kamion> Hm, how come there're no Contents files for {mips,mipsel,s390} in dists/woody?
<Joey> Kamion: There is no content?
* Kamion files a bug
<asuffield> Joey: If there was any chance of you digging
yourself out of this hole, you wouldn't need us ;)
<seeS> when woody freezes, will it still be called woody? <asuffield> seeS: no, it will be renamed to "stiffy"
<amu> Whois Ozgur Yazilim? <exa> ozgur yazilim == free software
Hyper Text Coffee Pot Control Protocol (HTCPCP/1.0)
Those guys who don't use a Linux/MIPS compiler seem to be decieded to have a lot of extra fun anyway.
Don't ask me why, nobody ever tells me anything around here.
I'm going through all the HOWTO licences at the moment, trying to declare as many of them free as I can.
SAG is GFDL with none of the options, so AIUI it is about as free as it can get (even Overfiend would probably call it free).
Be there or be somewhere else.
You want to install an RPM and bang -- you have a dependency problem.
I suggest that if you want to address the FSF, you mail them.
Horrors, some of them may not even use Emacs...
Is the FSF's intent to permit people to use the GNU FDL to protect a 3-page reference card for some program, accompanied by a 100-page novella which begins, "It was a dark and stormy night..."?, and mark the latter Invariant so that no one can remove it?
Linux is a follower, not an innovator.
You and I have stated our views on this well enough, and I don't have time to repeat mine. We may as well agree to stop arguing about this.
And it is very important to spread the word about GNU and free documentation.
Huh? When did debian-legal become the upstream authors of anything?
In many ways I wish I had gone with the GPL initially, and in many ways I'm glad I didn't.
That'd be SAUCE's magic time-critical detector, which will endeavour to delay any messages that it thinks the author wanted to go through quickly. Either that or it just doesn't like you...
I'm sorry, did I say anything to you at all?
It's all about me losing arguments!
All power is derived from the barrel of a gnu.
DVD encryption isn't about stopping "piracy", and never was. It's about laying the foundation for a future rewrite of Title 17 of the United States Code in which the term "Fair Use" does not appear.
Got a tip for ya. Pay some attention to the latest version of a package before mindlessly reopening bugs.
* the "honk if you ignore manpages and changelogs" release
We will have network software based on MIT's chaosnet protocol, far superior to UUCP.
evim is just one character away from evil
Since the unstable vim turns into an Emacs it must not be used as simple editor anymore.
kill_something() interprets pid in interesting ways just like kill(2).
vi is in the middle of evil
Andreas Jäger ran into Ulrich Drepper.
I've been working for GNOME since years before there was a GNOME.
The second effort produced Guile instead of a desktop, because we decided we wanted a Scheme package to customize the desktop with.
I am sooo going to regret this.
I also make last minute decisions,
Fortunately, a Bourne shell script is not a valid email address.
Learn to parse emails.
Maybe it's just me, but I think that's far less harmful than spam messages marking bugs as done.
[evms] Think of it as LVM done right.
Ok, but what's SLS?
Darn, f*cking DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS support broke the build system.
You are you, playing chess with yourself, and again you get the message 'IDLE: Unknown command'.
Call it the "Only Chris has to agree to this" clause...
Apparently, nobody has bothered to actually read my posts... instead, everyone reads into my posts....
RL keeps interfering (and flamefests, but that's all in good fun :-P).
I'm not sure now is the best time to report RC bugs against tons of packages, personally...
Stop being a fuckwit.
I just love browsing diffs, really.
So I told myself, would it be good to scan incoming from time to time, and harass people?
Packaging is not a 3-minute thing, it should be Art, a way to show off ones skills.
This goes beyond pedantic and well into the realms of moronic.
Craig Sanders isn't a real man; he's a social degenerate.
You might want to start wrapping your lines at < 80 characters or you'll get a private "fuck off" mail from *me*.
The fact that `zonefile' is a popular spelling does not make it a proper word.
I must say that I thoroughly enjoy apt-getting my software rather than wading through RPM's dependency hell.
I fully support these kinds of bugs, btw.
So your goal is to upset people? And that's a demonstration of your rationality?
Crap, all programs that mailbomb are evil.
Microsoft is a cross between the Borg and the Ferengi. Unfortunately, they use Borg to do their marketing and Ferengi to do their programming.
#include <nmu/if_required.h> #define MAIL_ACCESS "/dev/random" #define CHRISTMAS "merry"
BSD, Lunix, Debian and Mandrake are all versions of an illegal hacker operation system, invented by a Soviet computer hacker named Linyos Torovoltos, before the Russians lost the Cold War.
Popular hacker software includes [..] and "Flash".
They have more inconsistencies than The Register
AMD is a third-world based company who make inferior, "knock-off" copies of American processor chips.
Windows is like living in a dreamworld: There is no fork(2).
<Schwandter> it seems that mozilla has finally entered woody, which I think is good <Schwandter> :-) But I'm courious... How did that happen? <wiggy> The force was strong yesterday.
Hmm, doubtful. The source code generally wasn't there when I needed it.
I won't mention any names, because I don't want to get sun4's into trouble.
Tcl tends to get ported to weird places like routers.
Randal can write one-liners again. Everyone is happy, and peace spreads over the whole Earth.
I know it's weird, but it does make it easier to write poetry in perl.
<Overfiend> IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND VI, ***FUCK YOU***
It won't be covered in the book. The source code has to be useful for something, after all.
I'm reminded of the day my daughter came in, looked over my shoulder at some Perl 4 code, and said, "What is that, swearing?"
The whole intent of Perl 5's module system was to encourage the growth of Perl culture rather than the Perl core.
I dunno, I dream in Perl sometimes...
Take your whining crusade and shove it up your arse.
Robinsonitis seems to be a contagious disease.
I'm going to drive nails through this guy's testicles.
If someone maintains a package, and uploads it to Debian, he better be ready to stand behind the quality of his work.
E: Invalid operation dist-update
Anyone care to donate a time machine to me?
Irrelevance and triviality might suit you, but it's boring for everyone else.
So your email that you don't read my messages was a lie?
Clearly, Wichert's got a new hammer for Christmas, and is looking for something that needs nailing.
WARNING: Jack Howarth is an agent of destruction
Perhaps he is an agent for Red Hat.
I will open each file in Microsoft Word before I send it to you. Do you want me to do this before or after I compress everything into a *.tar.bz2 file?
If you ever want to know pain, send a stupid sounding e-mail to a Debian list.
<Overfiend> I have a monopoly on intolerance in this channel.
Free software costs money. That's because server space, bandwidth, coffee, electricity, computers, and workspace all cost money.
-testing predates testing
baz bat bamus batis bant
Das Universum ist undicht.
Irgendwo da draußen oder hier drinnen zieht es, weil ein Bulk-Universum unserem Universum die Vakuumenergie absaugt.
Etwa fünf Prozent des Netzes ist versickert und niemand da, der die undichte Stelle gefunden hat.
Jawohl, das Heiseversum ist ein eigenes Gebilde und der viel gepriesene Nutzwert bestimmt die Optik seiner Bewohner.
... the FreeBSD experiment is over, and FreeBSD is getting labeled as 'junkware'.
So it seems, we don't gain much to replace one buggy version with the next buggy version.
It's been roughly four months since potato got released, which means woody's been in existance for eleven months, and that we probably want to think about freezing and releasing it in a few more months.
Maybe NetBSD works that way, but if it does, then this belongs on netbsd-curiosa.
However, the ISO-9660 Standard has a Year 2156 problem.
All of a sudden every process somebody does not want to be killed is called "syslogd" or "named" or whatever.
The solution is to buy new resources, not to invent convoluted schemes to make a bad situation.
The bug was a bit of idiotic stupidity on my part.
I refuse to use an example any more because you morons try to fix the wrong problem.
* NMU to add hppa back in because the maintainer is a fucking moron who doesn't understand how the archive system works.
Real world is totally dominated by the implementation details.
I only care about "what the code does" and "what are the results and the bugreports". Anything else is vaopurware and I don't care about that.
Linus is the number one offender.
Patience is a virtue.
Where before we had chaos and charismatic people hacking away into the night, we now have people striving for orderly development of mature systems.
<robster> I'm not so lonely that I need to install Emacs <lilo> robster: for Eliza mode?
The beauty of Debian is that it is very well documented for the beginner and with a high bandwidth connection can be downloaded and installed quite easily.
We don't do marketing, we do a good and stable free software distribution.
Lost a 6 - it's 121666
If anyone has any further comments please feel free to let me know. Please direct all flames to Overfiend.
Debian has too many developers. Maybe they should start recycling, FIFO fashion
Linux (FYI: was first released here by me [1991])
BIND 9 commits suicide if it gets confused.
Second, how much money do I get from ISC if I look at the BIND 9 code and find, for example, a bug letting attackers take over the server?
BIND 4 was only 20000 lines of bad code. BIND 8.2 is 150000 lines of bad code.
Paul Vixie blames BIND's problems on ``sleazeware produced in a drunken fury by a bunch of U C Berkeley grad students.''
Bottom line: The Buggy Internet Name Daemon lives on.
So there's a soname now, but it's ugly as sin.
<netgod> There's 31,000 usages of "a RPM" and 51,000 of "an RPM" <netgod> I think i may have been outvoted
There once was a geekling named Hebb Who couldn't get onto the web He tried out a RPM Which left him a trippin' Until he apt-got him a deb.
* asuffield would not use google as a grammar reference
<doogie> netgod: like google is a source of truth
[lots of discussion about wearing long hair] <seeS> You all sound like a bunch of girls
It's a special opt-out system for french developers and Michael Bramer.
IA-64 is only really going to be interesting when McKinley arrives.
GOBBLES thinks that experienced programmers who still let their code get hacked by silly old stack overflows are very sad and pathetic programmers!
Why do you think we were aware of Ben's mail before it has been posted?
If you build it once, you're merely committing your architecture to keeping it up to date.
I suggest you work on improving them.
I'm sometimes active during daylight hours. You know when a hacking run takes too long and the sun comes up before you go to sleep. That sort of thing.
With Linus out of the way, I can make a good VM.
Now my code is gone I no longer have to work together with Linus, which is a good thing.
I cannot remove sd when it is in use I cannot remove ide when it is in use I cannot remove my mouse when it is in use Why can I remove my security subsystem when it is in use ?
Anyone who quotes me in their sig is an idiot.
<Joy> Oh, life sucks <Joy> There's an Iranian who can translate www.debian.org into Farsi. <Joy> But the Linux editors don't let him enter Unicode properly.
Just use the tools properly, and the solutions fall into your arms.
[Start a new Debian port] 1. Get rid off your job, your hobbies and all your friends.
* w6bi has money for a PDA burning a hole in his pocket.
<gjg> a7r: Thats a good ad campaign, we'll have a picture of Orv with
his pants on fire and then below it "You are so ready for Familiar".
<aj> (that one was uploaded by someone other than aph actually) <aj> (might've been cjwatson, i forget) <aj> err, watson? walters? whatever <aj> arg, they're both colin's! no wonder i'm confused
Senior developers are not self-appointed. It is not a self-made description. You become a senior developer when you do more than the average developer, when other know you well, when others learn from you.
Senior Developer is a community placed title, which fits in perfectly well with the community aspect of Debian.
Nah, senior developers are developers over the age of 80.
here's your reply - SHOVE IT UP YOUR ARSE stop YOUR shit
We're not a company, we just produce better code at less costs.
Any further discussion you have to have with the legal people at the FSF. I've no time for this.
Adam, if I would not know it better, I'd guess you would come from Germany. There is much bureaucracy in Germany and I was hoping I would not be confronted with such things in Debian.
"God, root, what is difference?" - Pitr "God is more forgiving." - Dave Aronson
I've escaped the GAL red queen's race by linking gnumeric statically against libgal.
Holy crap! No wonder it's called kitchen-and-sink editor.
Emacs is a wonderful operating system, but I prefer UNIX.
<elmo> Policy specifically does not use 822 format for the Maintainer field * joeyh rolls on the floor
* joeyh_ runs ps and sees 10 lines of awk code * joeyh_ recoils in horror
A LaMontiana Jones adventure.
This will continue until woody's release when it'll get re-evaluated, or when chaos and darkness take over the universe by way of general resolution.
If someone like Jim [Gettys], who has decades of Unix experience, needs help transitioning to Debian, then Debian has serious usability problems.
Let's face it people, despite Joey's quixotic work on stable, that is a release from before the Dark Ages.
The problem with the NM process is that it's likely to take longer than the woody release process.
There burns the NDA.
* Joy looks at a web banner saying "got life .org? Click here to get a life" and dies laughing <Joy> unfortunately mozilla also died after clicking
<Viiru> Why such a small topic? <Viiru> Is nothing broken?
Summary: I am happy to recommend the acceptance of Jesus as a Debian Maintainer.
Argh, sorry for the CC: to the list. I pray that it is moderated.
If I'll ever make program(s) to sell, they will have a this question: "Please enter serial number, or press Bypass to use this software illegally!"
In a stunning new move I actually tested this upload.
Here's the latest rsync fix from Debian. This one not only fixes the remotely exploitable vulnerability in rsync, but it also manages to not break rsync in the process.
"MIPS II" is officially the instruction set introduced for the long lost R6000 CPU.
Join in the fun of Lamontia Jonas Adventure!
* hartmans is dubious. I have a lot of respect for aj, but watching aj and Joey discuss what key to sign release files with was painful.
They're creative about their lame excuses, you have to grant them that.
Without Nat I would probably have gone crazy by now.
After all, writing software alone is not that interesting, the most interesting part is interacting with other developers, and watching how community projects grow.
And I thought that McDonalds sponsoring the Olympics was bad... This is ridiculous.
But think of all the windows servers that can't be converted to GNU/Linux, because gpm is not installed by default?
Cut him a break. He's probably under constant harassment from redneck law enforcement for being named "Ossama".
This means you cannot get keyboards with more than 128 keys to work (e.g. some specialized keyboards for old workstations).
<bdale> What do we have for playing avi files? <zanaga> avifile <bdale> Heh. I'd have never guessed that...
Zork is now on a K6-2/350 with about 300 megs of RAM and an AT power supply, all crammed into a cardboard box to keep the cats from peeing on it.
Darned RFCs, they change on me when I'm not looking.
I was planning to NMU crossfire-*, but then saw that the maintainer is not much around these days, so I thought, what the heck, let's hijack this.
I am currently sitting and translating APT into norwegian bokmål. I have come to the ominous line: "Yes, do as I say!". Now, I was going to translate this into "Ja, gjør, som jeg sier!", but then I realized, that if someone has come to the point of doing this - chances are pretty good that they are quite desperate and possibly lacking their native keyboard layout.
Black on black is bad so Im typing and then highlighting to make corrections.
For the Linux folks - if Debian can do their huge package collection in the timescale with only volunteers nobody else has any excuse.
The maintainer can always yell and scream and close the bug if it is a false positive.
Most serious people know that GNOME is a buggy "feature" ridden piece of anarchy.
Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send.
MIME - broken solution for a broken design.
People who report debian as the source of spam do not deserve to be a member of the debian lists community.
Yeah, but that would have required *thinking*...
* Overfiend watches doogie leap from here to Jupiter in search of a conclusion
Reading is a lost art nowadays.
<BenC> Subject: Pill to Increase Your Ejaculation by 581% * BenC has two kids already, so passes on that offer
There's only a finite number of them, so they can't be that interesting.
Debian doesn't have to be slower than time.
Why does Debian take so long to release? Because people would rather discuss this subject than fix release critical bugs?
How do you stop bugs from being introduced? Do you propose that we not allow developers to do any work?
Oh, so you're actually proposing we avoid fixing bugs?
I'd tell you on IRC, but the whole channel appears to have me /ignored.
* use x-ternimal-enulator instead of xterm. closes: #132947
There are 3 things in the world you should stay away from: 1) Writing device drivers. 2) Writing troff macros. 3) Writing sendmail.cf If you do one of those, you're stuck with it for the rest of your life.
I don't fear that there is too much sunlight inside of a bank safe...
The first thing worth pointing out, of course, is that the unstable [Debian] distribution is usually solid as a rock.
I'll fix it... trust me, I'm a doctor.
It's OpenSource, baby.
Debian: giving you the power to shoot yourself in each toe individually.
* The fuck it all to hell release.
Every use of Linux is a proper use of Linux.
Look at update_excuses.html and feel the pain.
* sjh wonders if only computer geeks would get the joke if a publican named his establishment foo
I often thought about what I'd do if I retired from geekiness. And one of the more frequent answers would be "to found the Foo Bar in a geekish place".
* ElectricElf grumbles about people who use something they don't understand to get something they can get from something they do understand.
<luferbu> ps auuxx <luferbu> duh <Jeroen> it's /who for IRC :)
<Overfiend> Come on, don't you guys get it? "HOLY FUCK!!! WE'VE HAD
A SECURITY INCIDENT!!! THE FIRST THINGS TO GO WILL BE THE
CRYPTOGRAPHIC PROTOCOLS!
The plaintext barn doors can stay open a while longer..."
<Joey> How is LSB pronounced in english? <willy> ell-ess-bee <Overfiend> Joey: "Doomed, Half-Assed Effort"
* Decrease mtime when creating the temp file, let's people edit files in less than one second while CVS still sees that it's changed (closes: #71502)
VMWare contracted with Brainfood to develop a GPL'ed version, but the code just got hax0red everybody pitch in!
It's almost impossible to insert due to auto-indent, auto-comment, auto-aaaaarghhhh
Sensible defaults? The color highlighting makes my xterm look like a xmas-tree.
Security is a nagging concern for the computer industry, which must juggle new features with the risk that they open up new problems.
Make no mistake, Debian has enemies that would stop at nothing to destroy us. The cabal fights secret battles daily to hide this from the average developer, a world of evil that would corrupt them if they ever learned of it.
See, that's the great thing about the cabal. You can just use it as a generic sink for abuse, because to combat it, someone has to step forward and say, "Speaking as a member of the cabal, you're full of shit!"
<Overfiend> bah, the cabal goes for days at a time without even reading Debian mail :-P <Joy> Overfiend: not true, Joey always reads mail ;) <Overfiend> who said Joey was in the cabal? :) <Joy> point ;)
<asuffield> mhp: you are accepting applicants based on the size of their tamagotchis?
* Manoj notes that all the mail sent to secretary@debian.org routes itself to the spam folder ;-( <Overfiend> Manoj: that's clever :)
<joeyh> I route the spamassassin-talk mailing list to my spam folder, just to have something interesting to read amidst the spam.
<rcw> pitr: Is the goal of Debian to package everything
that policy does not specifically exclude?
Here at Brainfood we must pay our bills with the fruits of our labors.
Forgive me, but I think you are back-pedaling because of the bad reaction you recieved.
* Omnic notes that both DanielS and StevenK need to learn to take everything with a grain of salt
Local admins should never talk to the Debian populace, ever. They should only talk to DSA (thru -admin), and DSA should filter than on to everyone else.
People have a tendancy on focussing on another's mistakes.
Linux distributors Red Hat and S.u.S.E are failing the technology industry by giving away software.
Compressing work to fit into a given timeslot may not be the best method to increase quality.
<Marticus> There's too much blood in my caffeine system.
Ebay prices for older parisc kit seem to have basically doubled since Linux on parisc began to work well. Annoying but I think a great project testimony.
If it did so, it would not be able to do the work it needs to do.
Once that's done, we'll have a nice relaxing flamewar about what happened and what we'll do next time.
But in practice I think there are also limits inside OpenSSL which already prevent the exploit. Because the 1024*10 I had in mod_ssl.h came originally from OpenSSL internals AFAIK.
So if I'm not mistaken, we now have a certificate field where we can put an arbitrary amount of arbitrary crap.
Does anyone have a security contact for the openssl team? *Angst*
The main example I like to throw at people is the SSL support in the pine-ssl port: sure, you've connected securely... But to whom?
So it's not activated, but it would be a small and apparently innocent step to uncomment it... and get yourself Microsofted.
God I hate Mondays (even if they fall on a Thursday).
<Manoj> __> egrep LC_ ~/.bash_vars <Manoj> LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8 <Manoj> LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 <Manoj> LANG=en_US.UTF-8 <Clint> impressive egrep that matches LANG to LC_ * Clint grins.
<greg_> I belive I need some LD_??? variable set. But which one?
Where/how should I look for the list of LD_* variables?
<Manoj> __> egrep LC_ ~/.bash_vars
<Manoj> LC_ALL=en_US.UTF-8
<Manoj> LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8
<Manoj> LANG=en_US.UTF-8
<Manoj> Ooops. You said LD_
Otherwise, you might as well sing the praises of Microsoft Office.
How would you like to see policy changed? Move PDF to an unacceptable document format?
Hey, thanks a lot for volunteering! Let us know how it goes.
I don't care much which directory traceroute is in, as long as it's in my path.
Debian: Everything looks broken until you realize it's just the only distro done correctly...
The source package is patched, but it isn't at all likely to build anywhere.
Our advisory is ready as well, but it's currently somewhat stuck in a battle between Michael Stone and the filter in front of debian-security-announce.
Since I've never seen anything approching an accurate article from Robert Lemos, I wouldn't immediately blame Dave.
Undocumented? Proprietary? You might want to switch to GNU/Linux Debian, an "apt-get install cvs" gives you access to all the documentation.
Note: This case is both harmless, and rare. Possibility is about the same as us discovering intelligent life on another plant tomorrow.
And out come the trolls and nitpickers from woodwork.
I feel perl's "there's more than one way to do it" attitude to be offensive and harmful to young, inexperienced programmers and could seduce them down a dark path.
Do you mean perl uses more CPU cycles than bash? Do you have stats for that? When I measured it (a couple of years ago, for Lintian), perl was way faster than bash, both in startup and execution.
I will never vote for you as the DPL because you simply lack the good sense of judgement that is required for someone of that position.
If the treasurer runs amok, then the DPL can replace him.
Well I guess it would be helpful for those of you still dating so you can try to gauge if she's just in a bad mood or something else... For those of us that are already married you don't need this kind of assistance... You already know...
* doogie kicks postgres <doogie> it can't compare varchar(16) with char(16)
Some people have told me they don't think a fat penguin really embodies the grace of Linux, which just tells me they have never seen an angry penguin charging at them in excess of 100mph. They'd be a lot more careful about what they say if they had.
I hope to die before I *have* to use Microsoft Word.
I think Adam Majer's position can be summed up by "If you use mencal, you will die of Altzheimer"
Remember the GNU project's objectives are to take over the world first, and polish it later.
Threads are for people who can't program state machine.
If you answer *AND* postpone a message to me, how am I to know you've answered it? :) "you stupid dumbass, of course I answered, just go read my postponed mail folder"
One of the problems in the non-Debian world is the RPM package system. While it is quite nice for installing distributor-made packages (if you pick the right RPMs for your version), it becomes a terrible mess when installing author-generated RPMs: Libraries are missing or mismatching, and RPM has no way to find out where to get the missing packages needed for installation.
There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult.
Unfortunately the architectures with really small storage are generally also cursed with really slow networking.
Actually, current kernels have a problem with current 160G drives. Mainstream 48bit ide support is expected Real Soon Now.
Did I miss something? What happend to Martin Schulze?
And I was worried that the BTS wasn't complicated enough already!
Apparently, if the Linux kernel driver guys renumber some ioctls, the right thing is for everybody's apps to break instantly.
* Hmmm. People open more bugs when I upload new versions of things. Maybe they just notice them more then, or maybe it's just Murphy.
* Phaedrus wishes he could get a machine that consists of Sparc IO, Alpha Processors and sleek design of an SGI
Well, if you were having sex on a tractor, you'd probably be outside, looking up at the stars.
Indeed. aj already knows that I'm on the next plane to Australia if Woody releases without Galeon :)
There are 0.345 million people per Debian developer in Finland.
Finland has the most DDs per population.
I saw FreeBSD packaged it and Debian didn't, and was immensely annoyed.
Debian: We Fix Bugs In Crap Nobody Uses
Debian: but we don't fix bugs in packages that people actually use.
So the FDL is a free license because it's inconvenient for it to be not?
Oh, well. Not everybody can be as goodlooking as me. It's a curse.
Adding manpower to a late software project makes it later.
You'll have to forgive me. Since I lost my secretary, I can't seem to find anything.
The entropy of a system increases with time unless specific work is executed to maintain or reduce it.
There's nothing to be ashamed of in coming up with the obvious, especially when nobody else is coming up with it.
In software engineering there is no theory.
What you're advocating is the evil twin of censorship, namely forced speech.
<stockholm> culus?! <stockholm> my apt does not work!!!
I am glad you exist!
dieman_: do you get money or other nice things for mentioning it?
DMCA-censored pages are now two clicks and a cut-and-paste away from the regular search results.
The difference between C and Java is that you have to be an expert to write good C code; you have to be an expert to write bad Java code.
Java claims to be cross-platform, but it only does this by creating a whole new platform on top which has to be installed first.
The JDK is one of the least portable programs you'll find on a modern system.
As for being vendor independent: don't make me laugh. Java is just as dependent on Sun as Windows is on Microsoft.
The licence for J2EE seems to forbid using it for any purpose whatsoever.
Some of us prefer to code in whatever language keeps us employed.
Microsoft has successfully planted and nurtured the seed in people's heads that just because it isn't supporting Java in Windows XP, Java is dead.
The fact that some guy in government technology doesn't think that a language is being used doesn't mean a thing.
No more languages, please, my brain is full? Give me a break.
foreach programmer in the world: why are they not hacking on rproxy?
Perl: crypto for algorithms
Security holes in Windows is a feature you paid for.
Your technically accurate and coherent description of the problems you were facing let me severely doubt that your problems were due to *any* of Debian's own shortcomings.
Unfortunately you are only one of Debian's consumer type users for which we have no use for.
Contribute nothing, expect nothing.
And now please silently go away. EOF.
MAGIC provides a hardware-based "firewall" mechanism that can be used to prevent certain operations from ocurring on unauthorized addresses.
When I was younger, I did an upload of XFce which was split into xfce and xfce-common at the time. I didn't understand why this was so, and I merged all of those shared files back into the binary-arch package. And I think that only one person ever mentioned this later, after which I slapped myself on the forehead, of course...
Frozen-bubble is holding up the release process as all the developers are now hooked and are no longer working on Woody, hence the RC status as this package is single handedly holding the whole release process back.
Either the game is made less addictive or it should be removed until after Woody is released.
[frozen-bubble] Once you finish level 50 it gets very boring.
I'd say it would be a pretty painful process, and a bad idea, to try and maintain a package of something that you have never used.
I won't install a piece of software unless it has been packaged first, so I have to package it so I can use it.
Fucking idiot. Yes, I can say that now. I'll only be DPL for another ~20 hours. Here, let me say it again. Fucking idiot.
Better be careful, talk like that will get you re-elected.
Part of the reason Branden is the X maintainer, is because X is possibly the hardest package in Debian to maintain, and Branden is willing and able to do a job most of the rest of us couldn't or wouldn't.
He is doing just fine, and he even manages to tolerate the abuse from lots of dead-weight, often poorly-manered and sometimes downright insulting people far better than most of us ever will (or will want to).
Translation: I own one of the umpteen iterations of the Radeon that 4.1.0 doesn't support in a way I think it should, so I'm gonna whine until I get support for what *I* own, since I'm incapable of doing it for myself.
I'd say there are less video cards that fail to run on X 4.1 than there are video hardware Windows never has a chance of supporting (read: big SGI coolness).
If you don't like it, there are plenty of x86 only distros out there for you to annoy the hell out of.
Assuming you actually want to get better software and not just start flamewars those documents should help.
The thing about most free software lists is that people are basically not interested in your opinion about this until you can demonstrate that it is an *informed* opinion.
That would be good. Keep away from the email terminals
You're arrogance makes me wonder if George W. Bush is related to you.
I'm just a user, and buying beer for developers could be my best contribution.
Congratulations. Now please return to your Redhat box.
But audience member Richard Stallman, president of the Free Software Foundation, nearly stole the panel's thunder as he grabbed a microphone during the question and answer period and attempted to commandeer the conference to address what he described as mischaracterizations the panel made about the free software movement. Stallman had not been invited as a panelist.
And when I don't know of a bug, it doesn't exist.
The IRIX CDs aren't ISO9660 so I doubt the Indy PROM can in any way handle this.
Today's announcement shows how HP has worked to help accelerate the shift from proprietary platforms to open architectures, which provide increased scalability, speed and functionality at a lower cost.
<bdale> Joey: I'm in the right building, actually, but
have to run to a meeting... will poke at it in a bit.
<xtifr> bah, only on duty a day, and already he's neglecting
his responsibilities! :)
Of course we all know it's mainly a big party, but we can't announce it like that because we want our employers to pay!
apt-get install blackbox Remember, this is Debian, not Mandrake.
Several months before December 31st, 1999, he asked me if we should be worried about the Y2K disasters. My answer was: The machines crash every day. Why should it matter if it happens on December 31st?
The Y2K binge is long gone and the biggest effect on computers seems to be found in the bits representing the bank accounts of Y2K consultants.
Yourdon dodges all of this by being politely vague and abstract.
The real challenge is determining how much fear we should have.
Long noun chains don't automatically imply security.
In fact, we cannot even imagine a world where 256-bit brute force searches are possible. It requires some fundamental breakthroughs in physics and our understanding of the universe.
The "Snake Oil" FAQ is an excellent source of information on questionable cryptographic products, and a good way to increase the sensitivity of your bullshit detector.
The news was glowing, and predicted that this new algorithm would replace SSL, save the Internet, and cure cancer.
Near as I can tell, the only reason this got out of hand so badly is that every cryptographer was at Crypto, and unreachable.
What is the Cramer-Shoup Cryptosystem? It's an academic paper (a good one) with an overly aggressive public relations department behind it.
Once the algorithm is revealed, it's easy to see the flaw, but it might take years before someone bothers to reverse-engineer the algorithm and publish it.
People trust cryptographic algorithms (DES, RSA), protocols (Kerberos), and systems (PGP, IPSec) not because of contests, but because all have been subjected to years (decades, even) of peer review and analysis.
Enforcing a no-fly zone around a nuclear reactor only makes sense if you assume a hijacker will honor the zone, or if it is large enough to allow reaction to a hijacker who doesn't.
If the government bans strong cryptography, or mandates back-doors, the resultant weaker systems will be easier for the bad guys to attack.
Prudence requires us to suspect that institutions like the NSA can do better, although we don't know how much better.
The performance trade-offs and attack models are so different that the comparisons don't make sense.
Hacking is judo: using network software to do things it was never intended to do.
If the door falls off while the vehicle is being moved to the launch site, it is unreliable. If the door fails in space and men die, then it is an unsafe door.
If nothing changes, everything will remain the same.
The less useful Microsoft makes its products and the more features it removes from them the more virtuous it becomes.
If a company or individual donates a machine to your school, it must be donated with the operating system that was installed on the PC.
Every program in development at MIT expands until it can read mail.
Fix it I guess, and file release-critical bugreports for the packages in woody that break as a result of it (Anthony will love us :)
<moshez> MADKISS: SAVE ARCH INDEPENDENT DATA <Joy> that sounds like a frenetic geek version of "save the trees!"
<moshez> o/~ save the bandwidth, make it a better place o/~ <moshez> o/~ for you and for me and the entire human race o/~
And we can always work on EFS writing support in Debian later, once everybody's SGI is running Debian.
Who needs EFS anyway?
Experience is what you get when you didn't get what you wanted.
<Mithrandir> Overfiend ?
<mihtjel> Mithrandir: Just yell "Why isn't XF4.2 in Woody?" ;)
<Mithrandir> mihtjel : could do that, but then he probably
wouldn't be too happy fixing other stuff for me. :)
At least, it has now succesfully built gnumeric, so I'm a happy chicken.
So, I would just like to remind people to occasionally send a "thank you" to those out there who make your day go by. It really goes a long way to helping us devel types deal with life.
If you can't improve the situation your comment is worth nothing but annoying people.
Someone as stupid as Lasse is unlikely to live very long anyway.
Maybe we need a new sub-distribution, Debian for glue-sniffers?
Someone said that X is a difficult package to maintain and that there is nothing wrong if PACKAGING it takes 3+ months. People have managed to install it from sources in matter of HOURS (well, that didn't work for me, dunno why).
Well, as long as we're in the apology business, you could tell me who this "Brandon" person is that you're talking about, and what the heck he's doing with my X packages. I think he owes me an explanation.
*Evil* twin? You mean one of us isn't?
Nowhere in my platform did I claim I wasn't evil.
Thanks to that recent thread, now I see a need.
What the fuck is going on! When in this insane world did Branden become the polite well mannered one, and I become the asshole!
If Branden is going to be polite someone has to assume his former flame-from-the-hip persona.
Debian is the de facto portability laboratory for XFree86 on Linux.
Result: Pressing that key locks the screen. Now if only I could move that key further away from the power button...
cutting-edge or not, we should all realize that debian's more than just another distro. for me, it's a lifesaver.
<Jaq> zarq: There is a secret cabal list that only the release
manager can see, where he puts little ticks and crosses next
to packages he likes/doesn't like. Just like Santa Claus.
--
* Evolution of Language through the Ages:
6000 B.C.: ungh. grrf. booga.
2000 A.D.: grep. awk. sed.
<wiggy> infinity: it's simple <wiggy> first there was joey <wiggy> then at some point joeyh was added <wiggy> and the latest addition is joy <wiggy> the interesting question is: <wiggy> will the next one have a longer or shorter nick?
Don't use PIPESTATUS to work out if wget succeeded, since that's a bashism and we're seriously not allowed bashisms. Duh.
Ten years and still binary compatible.
Testing? What's that? If it compiles, it is good, if it boots up, it is perfect.
The right direction would be the nearest dung pit?
procmail resembles Perl about as much as Pascal resembles morse code.
<Manoj> oh, czech is a spoken language as well? :P <asuffield> Manoj: czech is choked, not spoken
But in Indian languages, we have no concept of intonation and emphasis. And sanskrit. Man, you can contract any two sanskrit words into one. And repeat, until the sentence boundary. You can rearrange words in any order before you start contracting.
There was a book, written in sanskrit, of only single word sentences.
Welsh is an alien language.
<willy> what's the pair of letters which are a vowel in welsh? <willy> not `ll', that's pronounced `th'... <Manoj> ll is pronounced th?!!! <willy> in welsh, yes
<willy> llanelli is pronounced `thlanethli' <Manoj> I can't pronounce the latter anyway <Manoj> My tongue gets ted up in a knot
I'm just remarking on your comment
"Sit on my face, and I'll read a Welsh novel at you, baby"...
English isn't really Latin-based, it's actually an alien language written in a script that vaguely resembles Latin. This is why asuffield is always cranky, the Earth diet doesn't sit well with his anatomy.
<Manoj> Kamion: you mean if one dug deeper into etymological
origins, there is logic buried in there?
The only thing worse than newbie upstreams is upstreams who try to stop being newbie.
You need a kernel with the sonypi module (and a Vaio laptop..) to use this program.
<Robot101> What's that perl one-liner to crypt a password? <mstone> Just post your password and I'll post the crypted version.
<Zed> Bleh. I hate English. Why can't someone come up
with a more consistent language for general use?
<aj> Zed: cause it wouldn't be any fun. why do you think Perl got invented?
Actually vigor is essential. Otherwise people converting from the evil side feel too uncomfortable.
ATM - Another Terrible Mistake
* Manoj decides to experiment with cvs Emacs. I mean, I am running cvs-gnus, cvs-bbdb, cvs-url, cvs-w3, so hey, what the heckk...
Root on SE Linux has less privileges than a regular user on a regular Linux machine.
GPL will eat your economy, but BSD is cool.
Most threats to sue me are down to people who get porn spam, reply to it, get a bounce from an exim MTA and decide the guilty party must be exim.org - and Debian as the largest promoter of Exim have to take the blame here...
I think it is no valid assumption that no one is interested in maintaining them just because they are not maintained.
It takes, what, twenty minutes to upload a package with the Maintainer: field changed? A few hours every couple of months are enough to keep it fairly adequately maintained. If the packages aren't worth that much time from anyone, they're not worth keeping.
Unfortunately transparency requires having the time and desire to deal with the mindless flamage that always results...
To take another example, back in potato's freeze when I was culling the release critical bug list, I started off taking a fair degree of care to include an explanation and to Cc the submitter so they knew what was going on. About half the time it resulted in angry messages from said submitter insisting that I was being stupid or lazy or didn't care about good quality packages or whatever. After a couple of exchanges of messages, it's usually possible to convince them that you do know what you're talking about, but it just takes up way too much time. These days, I just don't bother to Cc anyone.
Anyway, I'm done. In closing, you'll note the consistent unpleasantness of the response to my attempt to introduce a small amount of transparency into the reasoning behind some packages getting left in incoming. Don't worry. It won't happen again.
_Then look at this thread_. Not. A. Single. Person. Has. Tried. Improving. The. Patch.
Don't worry, I'm not all surprised that you're attempting to characterize your token, whack-a-mole effort as a noble one.
Forking our own packages makes us look like noncooperative fools.
You mean we're NOT noncooperative fools?
It seems that far too much requires the blessing of a select person or group of people to get done in this project.
And voila, more flamage and pointlessness.
And voila, more flamage and pointlessness. Do you really wonder why people would rather keep their heads down and not give people an excuse to complain?
Policy is not a stick to beat people with.
Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Debian GNU/Linux - only dead fish go with the flow i686; en-US; rv:0.9.5) Gecko/20011012
Qt is the building block for my employer's software, and it's a great piece of software.
Talk to the hppa, people, or just ignore it. Honestly, this is so totally not at all even the slightest bit imporant.
Joey: Remember, Woody was the new "quick release" model.
Policy is not a stick to beat people with. It's a guideline, that should be followed closely, but not exactly.
After every windowmanager and every editor, we are now at the every 10 minute Perl script.
My vision of policy is like that it is analogous to, say, the C standard, and not a DPKG for dummies or teach yourself packaging in 24 hours kind of document.
Maybe you should make the Debian booth bigger, or split it in two... - "Debian Users" - "Debian Maintainers" in opposite corners of the hall, with only the BTS between them. The former submit useless patches and the latter ignore them...
Ask me for anything but time.
It is extremely noisy and the size of a small refrigerator. Do you think it is worth keeping?
<Joy> Oh god, there's a Chinese version of release notes * Joy recalls all the charset mumbo jumbo the Chinese web translation needs * Joy faints
However since -admin is usually as receptive to new ideas as my sister likes when i don't do any dishes, laundry or shopping in a month, this seems pretty futile.
<elmo> lisa's miiiiiiiiiine, all miiiiiiiiiiiiine ;), amber is the buffy maniacs
I have more requests than machines. So if you haven't responsed yet, its too late.
Welcome to the wonderful world of DNS with many registrars.
When it is ready, approximately.
Are you implying that the Hurd is violating the FHS and thus Debian policy?
Migrating to Windows from UNIX and Linux. The flexible Windows Server family offers an appealing alternative to UNIX and Linux. Learn why and how to move to Windows.
<Overfiend> Joey has a tendency to go missing during the meeting for long periods
<Diziet> Oh, bloody hell. <Overfiend> let me guess, your mailer can't handle MIME attachments <Overfiend> get with the 20th century, dude :)
<Overfiend> See!?!? ANTI-BRANDEN RULES INEVITABLY BACKFIRE ON THEIR CREATORS!
My blood toxicity is far too high on the weekends to make it through these meetings.
* Manoj votes to remove Overfiend from the meeting until he stops hallucinating
If anyone else bothers. I'd quite like my screwdriver back too.
PS: I hate how cvs manages that history file.
deity doesn't exist. Try again.
He is discussing the old deity. You pasted the new deity.
The only downside has been that if you try adding a release critical requirement, I'll jump down your throats.
We are still in this freeze period, and both Manoj and I are itching to rewrite the current spaghetti which is called policy.
The documentation should be found wherever the dpkg maintainers want it, not wherever the -policy maintainers think might be fun.
Mention RMS in a Linux crowd and you'll find people who love him, hate him, and those who simply roll their eyes. People call him a whacko, egotist, genius, saint, and communist.
We run Majordomo? Or is Smartlist schizophrenic now?
<Joy> wonder if i can reconfigure eth0 aliases on a machine while ssh'd into it remotely <mstone> yes, if you don't screw it up <mstone> screw it up and you're screwed
<Joy> thom: pfft, clara.net's backbone from Paris to Frankfurt is mere 155mbit :) <Joey> Paris to Frankfurt? and then to karlsruhe, to DebianDay. <Joy> Joey: we were talking about network packets, not people :)
<drs> I want to be a debian developer, how can I find 'an existing
developer who thinks that the applicant has sufficient
knowledge to start the New Maintainer process.'
<willy> drs: hang out, make friends, fix bugs
I'm off to throw myself out of a tall building or something.
It's one thing to say that; it's another to read a message to a mailing list that not yours but reads like you read it, modulus a couple of preferential differences in vocabulary and levels of anal-retentiveness regarding spelling :)
Our target group are debian-newbies, so not providing tasksel and instead forcing the use of dselect does not sound like a very good idea to me.
You don't say what kind of CD drive or hard disks you have, but since it is causing you trouble I'll assume it is IDE.
Are you kidding? If you interfere with the operation of a computer system you don't have access to in the US, you're officially a terrorist nowadays and the FBI will open a can of whoop-ass on you.
I think there are consensus for allowing positive discrimination.
Wisdom has two parts: 1) having a lot to say, and 2) not saying it
Anthony seems to select people he bother replying to.
5 years from now everyone will be running free GNU on their 200 MIPS, 64M SPARCstation-5
People should have lives, not just crusades.
Does this mean there will be a VRMS-GF package deveoloped soon?
Maybe that's why Tiffany is not responding to me.
Oooh, ooh, I know! I know! Only Free Software developers get the blonde girls, us Open Source people are stuck with the brunettes!
One of the advantages of techie-nerd-culture being mostly male is that we gay nerds have better odds.
So don't lose hope, all you out there in geekland! Even major rock stars are looking for you!
Well, I have noted on more than one occasion that Richard seriously needs to get laid.
RMS is an uber-geek and has come in for a good deal of pain.
Life is a lot easier when you have someone to share it with.
Perhaps people's willingness to believe that RMS can have a successful relationship is correlated with their own level of romantic success.
All I have to say is this thread on -devel is certainly a sign we should release Woody.
What would you do if you would get more mail you'd have to reply to than you can actually reply to?
Old business before new business, is essentially what I'm saying.
That would be the problem, actually... We are not a company, and we have zero corporate anything.
Headache... need...to..play...nethack..
Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't meant they aren't out to get you...
Bureaucracy should go away.
<Jeroen> "You have been removed from the list." <Jeroen> I start from the beginning <Jeroen> with my own distribution <Jeroen> without bureaucracy
More importantly, we need policy to keep things in order among ourselves. Jeroen presents an excellent case study on why we can't just assume that multiple people will work together well without a common framework.
Hurd does not exist alone in the universe, it exists alongside Debian.
If the Hurd is going to be "the GNU system" without any qualifiers, we should start calling this "Debian Linux", surely?
Hurd developers are like Linux developers on acid.
<aj> oh fuck <aj> [aj@azure ~/blahblah]$ find ~/mail -type f | grep -E '/(cur|new)/' | while read a; do x=$(basename $(dirname $a)); ln $a big_dir/$x/$(basename $a); done <aj> Segmentation fault <aj> that can't be good, can it?
I really like the return of the DFSG.
Hurd is a replacement for *everything*
You keep saying that you're going to leave Debian. I think it's high time that you do so.
Einstein argued that there must be simplified explanations of nature, because God is not capricious or arbitrary. No such faith comforts the software engineer.
AIX - Aliens Invaded uniX
<Joey> No time for DWN, it's not even prepared. <Joey> Need to fork() myself tonight.
<liiwi> does the standard Joeylibrary provide clone()?
I suspect Linus wrote that in a complicated way only to be able to have that comment in there.
Please, there is no need for a new acronym here, especially not one that is already used to mean at least two entirely different things in the computing world.
But right now Debian is paranormal. Nothing works like it used to.
Don't touch it now, ftpmasters are under high voltage tension.
NOTE TO DAVID D.W. DOWNEY Wrap lines longer than 80 characters. Split up paragraphs longer than 10 lines. Seriously :)
Please respect my mail headers.
I think svgalib has had its day.
You are an evil, evil person on two levels.
Clock's ticking Dudes!
Bugger, that means we'll have to read documentation... The horror!
<Manoj> 6.5k articles to go to download into inn2 <dres> Manoj: you newsserver your mailing lists? <Manoj> only 6268 BPS <Manoj> dres: no, I still read USENET <dres> Manoj: freak! ;)
I'm not about to put a huge wad-o-shell in debhelper postinst snippets.
*** Unknown CTCP FOOBAR from Overfiend to #debian-devel: * Joey smacks Overfiend with a foo on the left and a large bar on the right <Overfiend> ooooops <Overfiend> that went out?
<Overfiend> The following packages will be REMOVED: <Overfiend> frozen-bubble <Overfiend> WAHHHHH <Overfiend> WHAT THE FUCK <Overfiend> DON'T TAKE MY BUBBLES AWAY...!!!!!!
Where there is injustice in the world, I shall be there!
I will not hush!
<aj> Where there is injustice in the world, I shall be there! <aj> I shall not be silenced! <aj> The world shall know! <aj> The world *must* know! <elmo> Oh dear, he's gone back to powerpuff girls...
<elmo> Oh dear, he's gone back to powerpuff girls... <aj> yay powerpuff girls!! <aj> buttercup's my favourite, who's yours? <aj> you're backing away from the keyboard right now aren't you? <aj> *AREN'T YOU*?! <aj> I will not be treated like this. <aj> I shall have my revenge. <aj> I SHALL!!!
<dhd> W3 H4V3 PL3NTY 0F BUGZ!!1! D0NUT 4SK H0W M4NY 0R W3 W1LL R3WT U! PH33R!
o OpenBSD team wants to get changes incorporated into IPF. Darren no
respond.
o Ask again -> No respond. Darren coder supreme.
o OpenBSD decide to make changes, but only in OpenBSD source
tree. Darren hears, gets angry! Decides: "LICENSE NO ALLOW!"
o Insert Flame War.
o OpenBSD team decide to switch to different packet filter under BSD
license. Because Project Goal: Every user should be able to make
changes to source tree. IPF license bad!!
o Darren try get back: says, NetBSD, FreeBSD allowed! MUAHAHAHAH!!!
o Theo say: no care, pf much better than ipf!
o Darren changes mind: changes license. But OpenBSD will not change
back to ipf. Darren even much more bitter.
o Darren so bitterbitter. Decides: I'LL GET BACK BY FORKING OPENBSD AND
RELEASING MY OWN VERSION. HEHEHEHEHE.
<aj> ARRRGGGHHH <aj> What's wrong with me!?!?!? <aj> I was just nice to some mormon doorknockers!!!
<Culus> aj: GET THE HELL OUT OF THE CABAL! :P
All organisations, including Debian, have a culture with certain values and assumptions which its members are hardly aware of. These assumptions are built into manuals and procedures, written and unwritten.
<aj> neuro: <usual question>? <neuro> aj: PPG: the movie! july 3! <aj> _PHWOAR_!!!!! <aj> (you think you can distract me, and you're right) <aj> urls?! <aj> promo videos?! <aj> where, where!?
Once we see that they can fit in with the rest of Debian, then Hurd will be given the credence it desires. Until then, most requests will fall on deaf ears.
Cartman: "I'm trying to make the best of a bad situation, I don't
need to hear crap from a bunch of hippy freaks living in
denial. Screw you guys, I'm going home."
Kyle: "But Cartman, we're trying to..."
Cartman: "uhh.. screw you guys... home."
If you want a BSD system that feels like FreeBSD, run FreeBSD.
<elmo> well.. *shrug*.. no, probably not.. but to fix it,
we're going to have to implement reference counting
through dependencies.. do we really want to go down
that road?
<Culus> elmo: Augh! <brain jumps out of skull>
And, lo, a great and menacing voice rose from the depths, and with great wrath and vehemence it's voice boomed across the land... ``hehehehehehe... that *tickles*''
Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all run around in a darkened room munching pills and listening to repetitive music.
<aj> elmo: you're making me waste 5 seconds per architecture!!!!!!
YOU BASTARD!!!!!
This is *not* a technical dispute.
Welcome to where time stands still, No one leaves and no one will.
As opposed to "Linux sucks. Respect my academic authoritah, damn you!" or whatever all this hot air amounts to.
This happens when the people involved have the time to do it, and during busy times (like a release) this will happen less frequently.
They [new packages] are thrown in a black hole called bureaucracy.
Somehow a few people think they should have the power over whole Debian.
I can't work in an organization which looks more like the former Sovjet Union than some nice volunteer organization.
One has to prove they can follow the current standard, before attempting to change.
Once we see that they can fit in with the rest of Debian, then Hurd will be given the credence it desires.
It is impossible to follow the current standards, because the Hurd is different.
Requireing Debian GNU/Hurd to follow a Linux-specific file system standard doesn't make a lot of sense, for example...
GNU/Hurd is already part of debian, it deserves as much consideration as any other part, no more, no less.
So far so good. However, it is THE part that wants to move stuff around, so expect extra resistence against it.
HOWEVER, Debian GNU/Hurd is *not* to be GNU/Hurd with Debian packages. It is to be a _Debian_ system with the Hurd kernel.
If being "Hurdish" is more important to you than being "Debianish", then as far as *I* am concerned, you are welcome to fork the project, and go away.
And if Debian is commited to the LINUX Standards Base, do you expect Debian GNU/Hurd and Debian *BSD(s) to also comply to the Linux Standards Base?
I think Hurd people are getting a rough ride, but their strugle is making debian better, I applaud their stamina.
If I'm right woody isn't in freeze for 3 years. It's not that nobody has talked about these problems before.
A predictable troll of a response.
If you haven't figured out by now why your efforts to reduce all discussions to a "GNU vs. the unenlightened" debate have been met with scorn, then I for one will not miss you when you go.
The problem with some Debian developers is that they think they can use all Debian GNU/Linux things on GNU/Hurd and *BSD without a problem. That's not the case.
The other fucking problem is that some Debian developers don't want to listen if you have a different opinion. A lot of people on this list are closed-minded like hell.
Actually, since I only subscribe to debian-devel, I didn't see much need for letting people on debian-hurd know that I was killfiling Jeroen.
I don't <plonk> unless I really mean it.
He's free to take that as an indication that I'm a closed-minded, provincial Linux supporter.
I don't care, he's completely irrelevant to Debian development and is the Hurd port's worst advocate, so knowing that there's one more flaw in his world view won't bother me in the least.
The current system is Debian, as described by debian-policy. Although the only released target is Linux, I don't see that debian-policy is particularly Linux specific.
Is there a native Hurd distribution? I'm not sure. Perhaps you're trying to make Debian into that product.
If you want a BSD system that feels like FreeBSD, run FreeBSD. Why change Debian to feel like FreeBSD - what is the advantage?
Why would the debian-hurd subscribers ignore debian-devel? That's a telling attitude.
Until that time, Hurd developers need to follow Debian Policy wherever possible, even if it's braindead (which I don't think it is, but just in case).
Still, Debian uses FHS, so Debian GNU/Hurd will also be FHS-compliant. Else it won't be Debian GNU/Hurd. What's so hard about that?
But I am not shy to try to change Debian where I think the change is an improvement. And I am not shy to give Debian a personality that makes Debian GNU/Linux and Debian GNU/Hurd people happy.
All organisations, including Debian, have a culture with certain values and assumptions which its members are hardly aware of.
Something the size of Debian requires more than the ability to yell loudly, it requires the ability to work with a large group of people, and to understand how consensus is derined, and how work gets done.
Debian has evolved as a bunch of people who are trying, through various and diverse reasons of their own, to get the Best working set of UNIX like toolsets and envoronments going.
And therein lies your flaw.
Cabals? You know, the sheer clulessness of these rambling rants are enough to make most people ignore them.
Debian is successful, but it also needs to change.
The cabals are Debian GNU/Linux centred.
As I see it, Debian GNU/Hurd can, at most, be a system that helps people install, test, hack on, and play with, the Hurd as it is now. It can never fulfill RMS' dream he wrote down in the GNU Manifesto; consider the fact that Debian and GNU define 'Free Software' in a different way.
I should have been more clear there: Debian's hurd-i386 port should do so. The Hurd, of course, should do what it thinks or feels to be best; and if that means 'implement GNU Coding Standards to the letter', then so be it.
The process of reevaluating Debian's policy is a healthy one, and can only lead to an even better policy.
<marcus> dunham: You know how real numbers are constructed from rational
numbers by equivalence classes of convergent sequences?
<dunham> marcus: yes.
Without cooperation it isn't possible, that's why I quit Debian.
I rather spend my time improving some GNU packages instead of trying bo convince some people of doing the right while they don't want to listen anyhow.
Electing RMS as the next DPL is a nice start however.
This argument is bogus.
There is a complete GNU Operating System. Please don't spread lies about GNU.
Debian distributes 3 different operating systems, GNU/Linux, BSD and GNU. Debian itself isn't an operating system.
When I install Debian(be it Linux/alpha, Linux/s390, FreeBSD/arm), I want to know it functions like Debian, with all of it's filesystem layouts and interface programs.
If Debian Linux/alpha, Debian FreeBSD/arm, and Debian hurd-i386 are all different, then what is the point of Debian?
Conversely, if Debian FreeBSD is identical to FreeBSD, what's the point of Debian?
Maybe the Hurd people really do need an independent distribution, one that's not associated with the Debian OS, so we won't continue to confuse issues of Hurd technical purity with Debian conformance.
There appear to be people interested in each of these, and choice is good, right?
Debian doesn't own/maintain the programs that made the OS, it "only" (sorry for that term) packages them together, so it's called a distribution.
libexec--common policy on file locations is exactly one of the stupid points people are arguing over. This is *not* a technical dispute.
If you want to turn GNU/Linux in something which can run Hurd servers, your pretty close to a GNU/Hurd system with a Linux microkernel.
You don't have to be involved, just apply common sense.
I have the right to think and say that, that's called free speech.
I wanted to change Debian, but I walked to a wall of arrogant closed-minded people with no time and those people have all the power over Debian.
It's not that I want to fight against Debian. I want to cooperate, but I'm not going to give up my ideals for that.
People are just saying that Debian GNU/Hurd should be the same as Debian GNU/Linux, as much as technically possible.
You miss some very important thing in your naming. It's Debian GNU/NetBSD, Debian GNU/Linux and Debian GNU(/Hurd). You see: GNU, GNU and GNU. That's why I think it would be easier for Debian to follow GNU standards. But if Debian doesn't want it, I don't care.
And that doesn't make any sense. The other way around makes more sense, because GNU/Linux is the fork of the GNU OS and GNU/Hurd is the original OS.
You have no respect for or understanding of what we do.
I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and professional like GNU).
The Hurd's design is so secure that it makes firewalls immoral IMHO.
Sometimes the truth isn't the same as what you want to see.
This fix would help everyone, and by extension, Hurd.
A given file should normally be in the same place on every Debian system. I think this is a principle that everyone can live with.
I looked and RedHat still has the /usr/libexec so I wonder why Debian can't be.
...if I'm permitted to. I can think of at least one prominent Debian Developer who howls with outrage every time I dare bring the point up for discussion. This prominent developer also has a fairly close association with the Debian Policy Manual, so that tool might be used as a weapon against any efforts of mine in that endeavor.
This is insulting. This is uncalled for.
I am taking strong offense at the implication that my close association with policy shall be used as a tool to mould policy to my wishes.
Your demagoguery has descended to to a deeper nadir with this baseless calumny.
Then prove me wrong. Would you or would you not exercise veto power over a proposal to deprecate or eliminate /usr/X11R6 in woody + 1? If not, I'll be more than happy to retract my paranoid suspicions on this subject.
By the way, thanks for the colorful turn of phrase, which helps to elevate the literacy level of this list over the tiresome "it sucks" rhetoric of the Hurd threads, but it's common knowledge that your skin is far, far thicker than you imply with your feigned umbrage. Moreover, you can give exactly as well as you can take, if not better, as you just illustrated.
I expect people to cooperate instead of ignoring what other people want.
People who update the policy documents according to approved proposals as tracked by the BTS do not have more or less "veto power" over policy proposals than any other Debian developer.
I'll do so, Sir, when you prove to me you shall stop beating your wife.
Are you now a proponent of self censorship for any one who may ever hold any position of responsibility in Debian?
Do we now have no right to hold strong views, and air these views unrelated public forums?
Are we who hold offices in Debian to become sheep now?
Since when do strong opinions on IRC translate to power in Debian?
Debian GNU/Hurd can never be 2 things. GNU/Hurd can be one thing, and Debian GNU/Hurd can be something else.
You should *not* blatantly ignore Debian's policy just because you think it's braindead.
I know; but *this* *is* *not* *GNU*. Debian *does* care. Jeez
You can not decide what's right and what's wrong for everyone.
If you feel that the GNU part of a GNU/Linux distribution is important enough to call it GNU/Linux, then do so; if you feel that it is not, then just call it Linux.
What is preventing someone from porting something to Hurd? Something other than GNU?
It's called Debian GNU/Hurd because Debian GNU can be confused with Debian GNU/Linux.
GNU/Hurd == the GNU operating system, the GNU Hurd is the core of GNU.
Geez, all free software is nice to have. Let's not get into pointless arguments in which one free software project is trying to beat another into the dust. Such things are horrible distractions.
I consider GNU/Linux a fork [of GNU]. And that system has 275 distributions all inventing the wheel.
You don't do the Hurd any favors by making it out to be the replacement for everything else in the universe...
When all is said and done, more is said than done.
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. Looks like contempt and disrespect to me.
I think you'll find that Debian is far more than the kernel that Linus wrote in '91.
I think you'll find that professionals are using linux, not Hurd.
I think you'll find that Linux is far bigger and widely used than Hurd.
Again, we're about choice, not enforced dogma. I think we all agree that you're looking for something other than Debian.
I think we need to be careful not to equate the Hurd with any particular individual. Whether Jeroen Dekkers chooses to work with Debian or not should have no real impact on Debian's support for the Hurd port.
The Debian Hurd and BSD ports should first and foremost be Debian systems, and policy-compliance is central to Debian's identity -- even when it would be more convenient to ignore it.
Policy is not a stick used to beat people with. It's a guideline. Policy has never said it was 100%.
We want that "Hurdish" and "Debianish" mean the same thing, that is the Right Thing.
I doubt the Hurd can fit in with the rest of Debian.
Who said anything about Linux? This is *Debian* you must be compatible with.
The current standard is how Debian functions. Hurd should be molded to fit Debian, not Debian molded to fit Hurd.
Modifying Debian to work with Hurd, means that *ALL* other ports of Debian need to be modified. Is that what you really want?
I am not surprised that you attempt to misdirect this pointless thread with more pointlessness, by saying that this is an argument about Hurd and Linux.
The FHS says it's for "UNIX-like operating systems". GNU isn't UNIX-like, you know what the acronym means.
What is the problem? Make it /lib/exec and it is FHS compliant *g*.
You are actually one of those problems, you are somebody who downgrades grave bugs to wishlist because the Hurd is unreleased.
The problem is that binaries from *BSD won't run on Debian *BSD and we have to change every GNU package and the GNU coding standards.
If you look at portability and compatiblity, those 'Linux people' are just as worse as Microsoft, the company they hate so much.
Personal attacks do not improve other's view of you.
This is a separate issue, which you do not seem to know about.
Respect is earned. You do not earn respect by requesting changes.
I refuse to treat arch-specific problems as RC bugs as long as this arch is not to be released with.
Anyone referring to this as 'Open Source' shall be eaten by a GNU
Let's keep that a separate battle, ok?
Debian is only GNU/Linux at the moment. Being compatible with Debian thus means being compatible of GNU/Linux.
I think it's too philosophical for Debian; most of them are part of the open source movement and want to avoid talking about freedom, philosophy and ideology.
<jlj> MS infiltrating Debian? They surely named that operation 'Enduring Freedom'
Ah! I knew there was a reason we had the Debian Open Source Guidelines (DOSG), that we're the only Linux distribution that doesn't acknowledge GNU in its title, that we stuffed KDE into our distribution ASAP, GPL violations or no GPL violations...it all makes sense now!
Just calling something free software doesn't mean you understand it.
Jeroen, why do you spend as much time on antagonizing your audience as on convincing it? It's not very helpful.
The irony is that you [Jeroen] then turn around and blame your failure to communicate on your audience.
You keep saying that you're going to leave Debian. I think it's high time that you do so. Every mail you still spend on this thread will just do more damage to your cause.
Complaining loudly on the mailing lists just gets one ignored.
Yep, we do tend to ignore mere talk and vapurware. This is as it should be.
There are things being done to improve the usability of dpkg, at least as far as Hurd is concerned. I just have issues with the way some people try to force things.
Actually, I am happy for every problem I don't have to care about.
If you're waiting for a perfect design you're going to be waiting a long time.
Think of GNU as you would of other systems like FreeBSD or Solaris, with the exception that GNU's kernel has its own name and some GNU components are often used elsewhere.
Maybe it is my fault that it happened this way.
Ten years later, the GNU kernel doesn't even run on a SPARC.
If your idea is that the Debian package should not do anything that upstream doesn't stamp with their seal of approval, then we need someone to handle the job of maintaining the Debian package, since you don't seem interested in that.
I want to see GNU released before 2005. That won't happen with Debian.
I expect people to cooperate instead of ignoring what other people want. I can imagine that volunteers don't have the time to do everything, but then they should allow other people to do the work.
A port of Debian is supposed to be a Debian system which runs on another platform. That means it's a policy-compliant system which is, as far as is practical, the same as all the other ports of Debian.
The thing in the archive's "hurd-i386" section has never demonstrated any interest in becoming a port of Debian. It appears to be an attempt to create a different system which happens to run a wide selection of Debian packages.
I can't think of a better use for a killfile than eliminating mails which commonly contain no useful or interesting content.
I suggest that the "Hurd people" get an archive set up somewhere at gnu.org, and create their new operating system. Someday, somebody might port Debian to it.
Debian cabal philosophy: Ignore the problems, treat the people talking about those problems as a fool.
I already have found out for myself. I don't want to be part of Debian anymore, I rather go to a place without dictators who think they are God.
This is just stupid bureaucracy which doesn't help anybody.
Nobody's saying The Hurd can't ditch the Debian Way. However, if The Hurd wants to stay part of Debian, it can not do so.
GNU is GNU. Debian is just a distribution.
Respect is earned. You do not earn respect by requesting changes.
Respect is earned. You do not earn respect by requesting changes. You earn respect by showing you can get along with the status quo first.
Debian is Debian is Debian. If Debian is ported to Linux, then Linux must be modified to fit the Debian OS. Same for the Debian port to Hurd.
Those who know how to do it know how to do several things.
No, you don't change the whole to make the part fit it. You change the part to fit in with the whole.
You have to earn the respect of your peers, both in software, the business world, and even with your friends, before you are allowed to intrude on their world.
This is all common sense, which it appears that you are severly lacking.
There's a more general chicken-and-egg problem too: the FHS isn't supposed to be changed until there's some existing practice to change too; but otoh it forbids people from introducing new top-level hierarchies to establish existing practice...
Heh. It's well-documented in an unpublished document.
I've got to say that calling the Hurd section the ``GNU specific annex'', is very confusing. If you want to call an OS running the Hurd kernel "GNU" then we need to drop "GNU/" from our released architectures. Having "GNU" standards not apply to a "GNU/Linux" distribution is ridiculously confusing.
If there's to be a "Linux" specific annex, and a "GNU" specific annex, why would you expect "Debian GNU/Linux" to follow the former but not the latter?
What do you mean by this? Don't dance around the issue.
Well, all I can say is that there are lots of crazy people on IRC.
Well, it's certainly worth noting that Hurd developers don't have a monopoly on hysterical invective that is quite out of place in a technical discussion.
And be happy, I am going away! It's just that I defend my point of view for the last time.
The horse is now dead and dismembered in a jillion pieces.
If somebody would have explained me this earlier I probably would have unsubscribed from debian-devel immediately.
I actually want to make an universal GNU system which can be used by everybody.
What you are doing is exactly what you don't want to do, that is, to fragment the whole community.
No, they will happily change the license to discriminate by name against any person who violates the unwritten law: thou shalt not package my software.
It's not that I hate Debian and I will probably go through the NM process when it has the things I need to get work done.
While I am involved with the Hurd, I do have a great respect for Debian.
And I am the flip side of this coin.
Your response prooves to everyone that you really are a moron.
Sheesh, such rampant antiandrogynism.
Reposting someone elses message as your own make you look stupid.
Insisting on your wrong opinion doesn't make it less wrong.
Cheers,
_/\_ <--- release manager hat
aj
Acid is harmful, the Hurd isn't.
Everybody thinks I am nuts, I think it's needless to say it.
This is subjective, of course, but I think sending out the message that we eat our own dog food, and use only free software, is a good one.
Remember how the Unysis fiasco went down, when they were using a UNIX server to denigrate UNIX OS'? They were laughed out of town for not using the solutions they were proposing.
I fully support Joey here.
<solomon> LoRez: I'm not sure what you mean...
but I'm very thankful for your help ;)
Even Corel, another company which clearly didn't get it was capable of giving their WINE changes back to the community.
Jens and me hacked the color in the .eps-file manually.
There are no misbehaving autobuilder, just misbehaving packages.
And suddenly you feel like changing into English?
It's been real, it's been fun, but it has not been really fun.
Those who compromise principles for temporary expediency ought to know better.
The problem is not only that this sort of thing can happen, but that this sort of thing can be seen to happening wether or not it is true, which just makes everyone sad.
Transgaming is a company who took free software which other companies have paid people to work on, made a few hacks, made the whole thing proprietary, put a price tag on it, and are now threatening anyone else who might get near it.
As upstream for a few packages I get quite a few emails that have the same answer "RedHat libraries/includes are broken, let's see now how we can get around it".
Getting TeX to do the thing you want might not always be the easiest thing in the world.
I think people up in the "higher ranks" of debian like Joey really should refrain from such phrases as 'strongly discourage' or at least make clear that they are only pointing out their opinions.
Debian does not have ranks.
I wanted to send you a proposal but it seems Joey was faster.
But we do have people that are known to, and trusted by, most of the senior members. This is a fact.
This seems to me to be a self-tuning phenomenon.
This seems to me to be a self-tuning phenomenon. If you value Joey's opinion, except that in this case you don't, then that will reshape your opinion of Joey.
Yes, I can always talk more. I could do a 3+ hour talk with an intermission.
<Manoj> it applies to all developers, but most of us do not need it <Manoj> it is like rules that are obvious to most developers
IMHO, all this smoke made most DD loose their focus.
Yeah, and I'd really liked if people could use that time fixing some shared libraries, or unbuildable packages.
The question is whether Hurd should be Debian compliant.
The goal of the Debian Hurd project is Debian GNU/Hurd. Nothing more, nothing less.
Oh don't worry - they have threatened to change their license to specifically ban Debian from having such a package if one is ever uploaded.
Operating systems are not football teams.
I am not so interested in the rules for a release, as long as they are reasonable and predictable, and agreed upon early enough to make it possible to meet them.
I prefer stupid programs that do exactly what you say, even if it is completely stupid.
Pick up a cheap Cisco router from a failing ISP and export its flow statistics?
Personally I rate their attitude more parasitical than Caldera.
Hmmm... Hate this "I can be cleverer then you" business. It makes it hard to debug what is going on. I prefer stupid programs that do exactly what you say, even if it is completely stupid.
<slashdot> my US geograpy is lousy...lol <knghtbrd> so's mine and I live here
Caldera is the company who produced a Linux "demo" CD in which they modified sysvinit (GPL) to refuse to boot the system after 30 days if payment was not made to the tune of US$130.
But in order to use winex, I am expected to pay $5 a month and live without a native package for my distribution?
No, I think they are parasites who deserve to be exposed for what they are and killed for it.
I sure as hell don't plan to use their crappy Linux distribution to get winex packaged for me, that's for sure.
<joeyh> netgod: er, are these 2.2.0 packages 2.0.0pre9 or do you have a
direct line with the gods?
<netgod> joeyh: I have the direct line
The ITP says that the source is in sourceforge. Isn't sourceforge restricted to free software projects?
Yet you expect free software to be respected by companies?
Just because something can be packaged does not mean it must be.
I'm asking that the prospective maintainer reconsider packaging it, because the very act of packaging it might damage upstream.
If someone wants to package it they should be allowed to do so, provided the rules, guidelines and appropriate laws are followed.
XFree86 are our *friends*. We will do things to help our *friends* out.
On the other hand, the people responsible for what we are talking about here are not our friends...far from it. If anything, they are the dead opposite.
XFree86 is, among other things, a major player in the free software community. Transgaming is, by stark contrast, one of the more leaching sorts of software hoarders.
XFree86 has a license that reflects its actual expectations, whereas Transgaming apparently has a license which is a sham.
Distributing a prerelease of XFree86 hurts Debian as much as it hurts XFree86.
Those freedoms will disappear if we take advantage of them.
Thomas, I never thought I'd say it, but I wholeheartedly agree.
Somehow it's even scarier to agree with an FSF guy than it is to agree with Branden.
On the other hand, I think we should simply ignore the software altogether, because it's non-free regardless.
``don't step out of your room, otherwise i will lock you in there'' so your choice is 1) choose to be a prisoner or 2) become a prisoner.
Transgaming doesn't do it *at all* AFAICT. Their vague promise doesn't amount to anything.
Don't get me wrong, I think what Transgaming is doing is totally bogus.
* Joey leaves screaming <wiggy> Do it quietly please
Human knowledge belongs to the world
The choice of approaches could be made the responsibility of the programmer.
It is too easy to be lost in the implementation details by working at code too early.
<ifvoid> elmo: you should set a irc nickname in the developer db <elmo_home> nah, that encourages people to find me
The problem here, is you Michael. Make an effort to educate yourself, or, with all due respect, Shut The Fuck Up. Kay?
<bero> At least it hasn't had a remote root, unlike BIND 8... <wiggy> Give it time..
Bitkeeper is evil non-free software I will hopfully never be required to use.
<dotmhp> unlambda ITP <ifvoid> unlambda? What does that do? <dotmhp> makes your brain go foobar if you try to do something in it :) <dotmhp> kinda like intercal
<ifvoid> Heh. The first google hit on unlambda says:
"Your Functional Programming Language Nightmares Come True"
<dotmhp> that's it! :)
<ifvoid> hmm, it's obfuscated indeed <ifvoid> ```s``s``sii`ki <ifvoid> `k.*``s``s`ks <ifvoid> ``s`k`s`ks``s``s`ks``s`k`s`kr``s`k`sikk <ifvoid> `k``s`ksk <ifvoid> that's actaully a program ;)
Turning on -Wall is like turning on the pain.
[PATCH] MAINTAINERS file addition: Al Viro I'm sick of searching my mail archives to find that email addr.
[PATCH] Robert Love likes leather and chains
My name is *not* GPL: you may not derive works without approval.
<infinity> I prefer guys who are a bit more effeminate. * infinity slides up beside OF.
Outlook is useful for one thing. Testing if viruses work with Outlook.
This is an emergency release. Politics are involved. Comic advisory coming soon. Thank you for understanding situation.
I signed her pgp key, she signed mine, now we are bonded for life... or at least until one of our keys expires.
Tolkien rules, the cabal be damned, and may the force be with you!
Debian GNU/Linux is best suited:
1. Easy upgrade
2. Available on all kinds of architectures
3. Strictly tested, slow release cycles
4. Stable as hell (no experimental gcc/glibc)
5. Can't die - i.e. no company, but an open project
<Guido> How about a quick reminder of the coordinates? <wiggy> Galaxy, Planet Earth, Internet, irc.openprojects.net, #spi
I do not get viruses because I do not use MS software. If you use Outlook then please do not put my email address in your address-book so that WHEN you get a virus it won't use my address in the From field.
The A in DAM stands for accounts, not assasinations.
* i resign... i should no longer mess with galeon packaging, i have broken enough... damn. i performed very badly these days... two tries to fix the postinst, two tries for the dependency... i should be very ashamed...
I told her if we emailed trivial changes, they'd be mail bombed.
She did say that "You guys are doing everything we ask, and are adhering to the guidelines perfectly" the whole thing was basically administrative.
<mgoetze> calc: if i had any rs/6000's, i'd be keeping them all to myself. <mstone> If I still had any rs/6000's I'd be getting rid of them
Yes, the beer I like has a website, it's very disturbing.
Go away, Satan!
A number of commercial suitors had flirtations with Debian.
Suddenly, the 600 or so Debian developers scattered around the world had a very large friend in Palo Alto.
I also have no clue.
Damn, I don't know if I can make it in time, PGI sucks so much!
And you think we didn't work hard all the time upto April 31 to have the test things until April 31.
April 31st, eh? I always knew Sven Luther lived in his own twisted reality...
Ask any Debian user and he will shake his head in disbelief that you, as a Mandrake user, have to download 2GB of software every 6 months and then run a risky upgrade just to get your system up-to-date. Silly you!
And Branden, please go fix X bugs instead of harassing your fellow developpers.
<Beeth> Girls are like internet domain names, the ones I like are already taken. <honx> well, you can stil get one from a strange country :-P
<Raize> can you guys see what I type? <vecna> no, raize <Raize> How do I set it up so you can see it?
<Opcode> i was gonna call 911...but i was downloading a file
<reuben> Somebody keeps jiggling the doorknob on my front door,
then running away
<reuben> I don't know if i should call the police, or hook up
some electricity to the doorknob
*** Signoff: Morpheus (Connection reset by peer) *** Morpheus (vanford@host-209-214-188-107.clt.bellsouth.net) has joined channel #relax <Morpheus> argh.. that wasn't my speaker cable
<incarnate> hey cres, I know what you're thinking right now <incarnate> " " <cres> i dont get it
<django23> I have a stupid question: what does "sendmail" do? <Epesh> django: you're right, that is pretty stupid
<evenpar123> I think I'm losing it...
<Slant> evenpar123: Losing what?
<evenpar123> my ability to tell the difference between games and reality
<evenpar123> Just today, I was driving down a street, and saw a
building that had sunlight reflecting off it...
<evenpar123> And I thought "Damn....these are some nice graphics..."
<evenpar123> It was horrible...
<evenpar123> ugh
<wickedsun> I dont know the difference between games and reality anymore <wickedsun> I jsut used a shotgun on my mother and she's not respawning
Sounds like your trying to be a troll.
I'm asking that people have hard numbers to support their wild claims before dragging this tired old subject out for another airing.
I present for your general contempt the i486(?) ENTER and LEAVE instructions, which, at the time of their first appearence, were slower to execute than the two or three instructions which they were documented as being exactly equivalent to (and it's far from the only case of such idiocy from Intel).
My gut says it will be SuSE with Connectiva's package tools. TurboLinux brings strong Asian i18n support and Caldera, well who knows what Caldera brings.
Why do people only bother doing such checks and making posts about it when it is already way too late in the release cycle?
They matter because they demonstrate that the obvious way of doing this breaks things horribly, and thus should be done.
What would you do if you would get more mail you'd have to reply to than you can actually reply to?
security.debian.org is going to be put behind an IP-over-semaphore gateway.
I'm sorry you duplicated the work, but on the other hand it was probably an educational experience.
<Joy> wiggy: Last time I attempted anything, Joey said "you're on
crack, what are you going to do, get away" or so.
<wiggy> never listen to Joey :)
I'll leave the rest of the rampant stupidities for others to mock, and depart on the note: Do you really trust your security to somebody who cannot spell 'critical'?
I suppose the good thing about python enforcing sane whitespace is that it eliminates gecko-perl and iwj-perl styles of programming.
Obfuscated perl is easier to understand than debbugs.
<StevenK> GAR! * StevenK wonders how to the hell to get out of viper mode. <asuffield> StevenK: M-x viper-go-away <asuffield> it said that in the intro message <asuffield> which you blatantly didn't read, fool
vi ~/.emacs just seems so wrong
<Joy> In the beginning was the word, and the word was content-type: text/plain <Joy> ROTFL! * Joy hugs Joey
It is much easier for me to --- for example --- hide an exploitable buffer overflow in Apache than it is to hide something in a document.
The best place to hide something is in documentation.
As XFree86 package maintainer and author of the Debian X FAQ, I can attest to the truth of this statement.
Is there a better way to glue \-continued lines together than: sed -e '/^[[:space:]]*#/b;:g /\\$/{N;s/\\\n//;bg;}' ?
I should rewrite that sentence, but I won't.
Or consider what a "font" means to PostScript. I don't want to pull out my postscript book, but I think the answer is "anything". I'm pretty sure a PostScript font can do, e.g, a Blowfish decrypt of the document on the fly.
I say this only because I need to make it clear that I am not on a mission to keep the GNU Emacs Manual in main.
Congratulations! According to Google, HotBot, and AltaVista, you are the first person on the internet to ever say that.
It's not the distance which poses the problem, it's the 200 year Time-Warp.
Put 0 and 6 together and you get non-free, as well as GPL violation.
Ok, please remove all GPL software from main.
When I suffer, everybody gets to suffer with me.
The sad thing is that Marco Budde is himself a Debian developer.
Sorry to say that, but this is nonsense. The GPL is only a *text* document and not a person/company.
Because you don't know which of those two assumptions to make, I'd say that's a good indication that you need to contact the author.
This is good news -- finally a truly free version of TeX!
FWIW, I'm at SuSE now, but my job description bears a strikung resemblance to my previous one...
Agreed. The Importance of Being Debian.
The good work Debian folks are doing on their packages is the real secret for APT's magic.
The magic comes from high quality packages. High quality packages come from Debian policy.
There is always room for impovement, and luckily we don't have monopoly to innovation.
The manpower per package ratio is also much much higher for Debian.
Hah. You tempt me to spend a day reading policy and seeing just what awful stuff a policy compliant package can get up to.
Even though we have policy, you are allowed to use common sense.
Yeah, as in, "I grepped the whole store but they don't have any tortilla chips". .... what, you mean it's _not_ a word?
Well I know non-technical folks who use "grep" now. Generally as a curse word, oddly enough, but it's gonna make a dictionary eventually, I suspect.
Life is fundamentally flawed, big deal.
So shut your fucking mouth, you dumb fuck!
We are in exactly the same situation. Frankly the way this is being handled sucks in every way possible.
I wonder what excuse Theo will find this time to keep the `Five years without a remote hole in the default install!' statement on www.openbsd.org.
So the day this is announced, every linux box will be vulnerable to this hole.
I can sure tell who is who in this community.
So now what? Damned if I do, damned if I don't :)
It's unfortunate that Theo's social skills is functioning at his usual low level, but that's very unlikely to be fixed anytime in the near future....
Err, hum.. blah, katie bug.
Sorry, but I am going to ignore your whining about falling behind in the field of security software.
And I'm sorry if you felt insulted by my sarcasm, but you're currently witholding the information I need to do my job properly.
<Beowulf> Sometimes I think Joy and Joey interexchange their nicks.
Do I detect an element of ESR-schadenfreude in that fetchmail comment?
This means we've let Theo pull down our pants in public, just so that he's not alone in his pain. I cannot quite believe this is real.
Someone would have to *manually recompile with different build options* in order to be vulnerable.
OpenBSD: Five years without a remote clue in the default maintainer.
But drill inspector Theo ("update and don't ask questions, soldier!"), showed at least how good our new security upload architecture and how fast the security team is.
Don't be too hard to him, if he'd pointed out that only default BSD is vulnerable it would not have been too hard to find the exploit before everybody had updated.
$VENDOR says it's broken $VENDOR won't provide details $VENDOR says upgrade two minor releases $VENDOR says upgrading doesn't actually fix the problem $VENDOR says upgrading will break things Woody security update comes out before potato one. That makes for the weirdest DSA I can remember.
In the light of the recent events, may I propose to rename our unstable distribution from "sid" to "theo"?
Fact is, you ranting assholes are complete idiots.
Great. That's just what I want... a rushed 3.4 release which contains 5600 lines of code "audited" by a team of sleep-deprived zombies.
Just wasted a good part of yesterday upgrading 60 boxes from a non-vulnerable version of OpenSSH to a version with a now known remote exploit.
Spoiled spoiled children. No candy for a week.
I try to keep the traffic on security-announce low (I know it's hard to tell :)
* wart thinks DDs should feel happy. Imagine how OpenBSD developers feel with Theo being the head :)
Xu actually tends to be quick on crass words, but otherwise wise
On the first day of Christmas, Theo gave to me:
an ssh advisory
On the second day of Christmas, Theo gave to me:
two overflows, and
an ssh advisory
On the third day of Christmas, Theo gave to me:
three root exploits,
two overflows, and
an ssh advisory
On the fourth day of Christmas, Theo gave to me:
four hours notice,
three root exploits,
two overflows, and
an ssh advisory
<Overfiend> asuffield: ha, ha. I used to data a girl who was half-Japanese. <Overfiend> hmm, you know you're a hopeless geek when you misspell "date" as "data"
<Overfiend> nah, moving to Japan would be depressing <Overfiend> all those fine Japanese women, and they won't let the gaijin touch them
Americans are too dumb to insult people from East Asia properly. The Chinese are "Chinese". The Japanese are "Chinese". Mongolians are "Chinese". Siberians are "Chinese". Koerans are "Chinese". Vietnamese are "Chinese".
He was the only non-white person in a 5km radius, if I failed to recognize him i'd be blind.
He does, of course, mean `beer of Canadian origin' rather than Molson's sheep piss.
<Crow-> I've also converted half the guys here from mutt to pine, hehe <Crow-> I mean from pine to mutt <Crow-> Oh wait I said it right the first time <doogie_> Crow-: stop drinking
Baby, my woody is hot shit, it's trendy and it's catchy I said baby, my woody is hot shit, it's trendy and it's catchy I say it's just too bad it's got a root hole in Apache
Ah, stupid. I completely forgot that the core stuff is put in different directories than the seperate modules. Indeed, no worries here.
Hmm. What begins with U, ends with P, and has 2 words?
> Well, dillo is there and is working. Plus - it's like > Mozilla with all the bloat :-) Fuck. Think first, then write. It's like Mozilla without(!) all the bloat...
I used to think that using XML would save me the trouble of writing a parser. But interpreting the results from an XML parser is just as much work.
WindowMaker pisses me off because it has these bizarre icons that don't seem to serve any purpose.
WindowMaker uses a surprisingly large quantity of memory for such a tiny set of functionality.
Razor has been known to catch things like Debian security advisories ...
First of all, if you want a favor from me (like advice or the answer to a question), don't make my life harder!
There used to be a company that would take out the polarizing layer on an LCD screen for you. The display would end up looking like white noise, except if you wore superspecial polarizing glasses, which would set the polarity right.
Could you possibly find a list where this question is more offtopic?
Just out of interest -- what is the longest ever release cycle of a modern distribution? Woody's pushing 1 year -- there must be a longer one somewhere.
<luca> would Branden fit a bdale suit? <infinity> With football padding and such, maybe.
* luca would walk away from Bdale if he ever saw him in an alley
<Md> CRAP! The compose key does not work anymore. Any known workaround?
Nothing can be more splitty than OPN.
gnome-terminal is no longer capable of accepting arbitrary font strings without farting around in its internals.
* The "finding myself standing on the corner staring into a different world" release. Will someone please give me a job?
* THE BUG TRACKING SYSTEM IS NOT THE RIGHT PLACE TO SEND BUG REPORTS FOR APACHE2. * REALLY.
* The "The obviously begging in a changelog works" release.
* The "Apache2 isn't released, therefore the Bug Tracking System doesn't bloody well work" release
I saw that debate on gnu.misc.discuss :) (About msdos, actually). The conclusion there was that the GPL was defining the compiler as a major component of the operating system, and that msdos was simply incomplete by default. I don't know if I agree with that, though.
<liiwi> hnnnnghrmgnyaghmailman-daygrmbl * Kamion shoots the cat wandering over liiwi's keyboard
This reminds me of the other reason I'm no longer using gnome-terminal. He writes changelog entries in exactly the same manner whether: a) upstream fixed the bug b) he fixed the bug c) he is claiming the bug does not exist d) he doesn't want to fix the bug
<Ralf> Delete duplicate and braindead code for CONFIG_INDYDOG. <Guido> You killed the wrong one:
Like many vendors, HP would like better support for very large systems. In particular, the company sells systems with more than 256 PCI busses installed, and would like that to work well.
Linus stated that moving firmware into user space is "technically incredibly stupid" and "a sign of mental disorder."
I'll just stick to the best distribution and watch the fun from afar.
Screw 'em. Anyone who relies on a service that broken doesn't need to get our mail.
<dark> I wonder how much of my food I would still be willing to eat
if I really know where it came from and how it was made.
<mihtjel> 8%
<dark> Is that a smiley or a percentage? :)
<mihtjel> percentage ;)
Minix doesn't count because it's not free.
<stockholm-debcon> walters: what time is it?
<walters> stockholm-debcon: it == the first meeting? 3:00pm I think
<walters> stockholm-debcon: you can't be asking me what time it is
right now; you are connected to the internet, after all...
* Joey . o O ( geeks meet RL )
<stockholm-debcon> Joey: i am not really sure what timezone i am in.
* bdale thinks lamont needs to run home and fix his networking... :-) He had so much fun with planes yesterday, he clearly is ready for more!
* dark notes that bored geeks at airports can be dangerous.
<dark> I already found 3 ways to get weapons past Helsinki security.
I wonder if I'll ever try them.
<dark> Hmm, I wonder if there's a word for the practice of
searching fortune files for your own name.
<asuffield> dark: narcissism
<dark> asuffield: *cough* I just want to make sure I'm not misquoted!
<thom> ifvoid: there are ~20 people in here using wireless.
Going through a laptop with wireless and wireful, onto an
IP Matt Taggart grabbed with tcpdump.
I am using (La)TeX for everything I am writing, and I assume most scientists do.
Since no mirror carries the Debian DVD images jigdo is the only way to get it.
Broad surveillance is a mark of bad security.
Cooking is like invoking make, except that the time taken for the completion of each target is (roughly) known in advance and that the dependencies for each main target should be completed at the same time.
Obviously it is strongly advisable to obey GPL section 2a. Else you can expect a lot of trouble with your family/roommates/friends when, after drinking, you put the modified beer back into the bottle and not having it carry a prominent notice stating that you changed the beer. Though it may not be that interesting to know the date of the change.
* edward just installed gbuffy <edward> (mail notifier) <infinity> Dang. <infinity> How disappointing. <Hydroxide> not the GNU Vampire Slayer? <infinity> I was hoping for some sort of Sarah Michelle Gellar thing. :) <thom> infinity: you wanted a vampire slayer on your desktop? <Hydroxide> (female version of gblade I guess) <joeyh> shouldn't gbuffy deal with zombie processes or something? <Hydroxide> ok joey you beat us all :P
Eine Schwalbe macht gewöhnlich keinen Sommer. Die Frage aber ist, ob der Sommer die Schwalbe macht.
Hmm, frequent commits might actually slow down my coding. After every commit I get this warm glow of satisfaction, and feel no need to continue coding.
<elmo> anyone know how to stop paired ultrasparcs from rebooting
each other into the floor?
<elmo> serial console linked..
<elmo> I thought the "oh dear, my link has gone, time to commit suicide" feature had been turned off in vore, but..
When you are stuck on a train for a week you have to relax and accept life as it is.
So it's plausible that people use a machine that costs $10k/month (S/390) to run a quake server? Sometimes the goal of running everything everywhere is silly.
I don't think Debian needs the support headache and political stress associated with market dominance.
Even market dominance for dpkg in package formats would put too much pressure on dpkg to develop in this way or that.
dpkg is a difficult program to maintain; it's complicated - particularly, it has very subtle error handling issues - and it's also very important that it doesn't mess up too badly. So I'm basically pleased that it hasn't been totally broken, really.
My views on apt are probably not printable.
What, you want me to predict the release date for woody? :-) I don't know. In January I bet a friend of mine that woody wouldn't release within 6 months. Everyone thought I was mad, but now it looks like I might win my bet. He has until the 21st of July...
But, now Debian has grown up, I do find it difficult sometimes not to feel that I have to fix everything that I think is wrong.
So unless I get a whole lot of time, suddenly, I'll just be playing my own small part and not trying to fix the universe.
Also announced Debian GNU/Linux 2.2r7 released. In case some of you thought Debian won't be releasing anything this year.
* Switched from using mogrify to convert, because despite what Branden Robinson claims, ImageMagick's semantics changed. That said, it's the right tool to use anyway.
<noel> aj: uh. asking = pestering? <aj> noel: do we have to get into a semantic argument now?
Wow, Santiago having a position several of us ageee with.
Is this where we invite people to trojan your Debian mirror, and demonstrate gpg's utility for the average Debian user, btw?
I think that HPPA runs better than AIX 4.1.4 on PowerPC.
* moshez greets pope Joey too.
<jaq> Does anyone know why Matthias Kabel uses -0 for
his first version of a new upstream?
<broonie> He thinks zero based numbering is the One True Path?
<mechanix> jaq: He's a new geek on the block?
We haven't figured out how to be lower priced than Linux.
For us as a company, we're going through a whole new world of thinking...
If that works, why wouldn't an additional card? (yup, I know the SCSI driver is a mess...)
This particular group of cats is mostly self-herding.
The filename "changelog" implies it is a log of changes, not a log of bugs.
* Fixed long long ago, closes: #58226, #58586, #35948, #76246, #53530
closes: #39584, #13800, #34452, #53894, #54096, #42490, #30683, #32468
closes: #29619, #34816, #35113, #39071, #35334, #35497, #42867, #36212
closes: #59316, #62826, #35131, #36952, #43659, #24090, #36076, #45041
closes: #54156, #37307, #27146, #34729, #47457, #34699, #35250, #34538
closes: #30054, #35389, #36655, #36762, #36932, #36933, #61163, #58954
That was a preliminary flame. Only the pilot light is lit.
When he responds like a dumbfuck, attempting to justify his stupidity, then the fuel is poured on.
It might surprise you, but I have "ctrl:nocaps" in my XF86Config-4 file. :) I just hold down the left shift key with my pinky and pound away.
Anyone who has had to work with X.509 has probably experienced what can best be described as ISO water torture.
What's cool about Slashdot, is that frequently, *both sides* of an argument are *immensely stupid*
<wiggy> I <wiggy> FUCKING <wiggy> HATE <wiggy> LIBC <aj> wiggy: it's the GNU factor <wiggy> no, this is the BenC factor
People really need to stop colluding the evil queued and my lovely ladies :-P
It's far beyond my understanding that the people who can subscribe the list are not able to unsubscribe.. Hmm..
I *can* exclusively reveal that "sarge" is the official name of the next testing though...
<bdale> Overfiend: for several years, I drove a 1980 rabbit
that was, erm, slightly modified ...
<infinity> bdale : You cut off the roof and widened the body so you could fit?
Folks are so petty. All my life I've been made fun of for being short, now I gather people make fun of you for being a middle-linebacker.
* Diziet uses hir casting vote. Oh, the power. <Overfiend> "hir"? <Diziet> Gender-neutral pronoun. <Overfiend> is "Diziet" without specific gender? <Overfiend> right, I know that <asuffield> Diziet: you are gender-neutral now? <asuffield> that must have hurt
<Diziet> I don't think my gender is relevant to Debian :-).
I mean, look. When 4 people can't even be awakened from slumber to vote AGAINST Overfiend, you KNOW you have their death certificate in hand.
You need me on the Technical Committee, if only to wipe your ass :-P
I set the rules. If you don't like them, fuck off.
I'm glad I don't have your users.
<Fluor> The following NEW packages will be installed: <Fluor> emacs20 libkrb53 <Fluor> wtf! <Fluor> WHO is responsible for installing emacs20 on my computer!
Hmm, do I discern a pattern here? Perhaps some perl advocates are applying its philosophy of "throw random code against the wall until something sticks" to things other than perl scripts.
I didn't file bugs about these yet... Have to have some fun tomorrow, too.
We've just had a biannual release (once every two years) I guess you mean the other biannual.
I agree, but since when does my opinion matter?
Thou shalt not use new features of dpkg until after sarge.
I sense a disturbance in the force As though millions of voices cried out, and ran apt-get.
So, first goal for sarge: stop the pointless and depressing bickering.
This code is currently at the `we're happy if it dies trying to start init' stage.
This is becoming a tradition. I go there and break the law every year in the name of free speech.
I don't have the time or energy to deal with polemics at the moment.
* Manoj ignores overfiend until he can calm discussion * Overfiend ignores Manoj until he stops engaging in polemics of his own :-P
Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one.
<Sam> I am actually curious. How would one go about changing what
types of things are accepted in point releases?
<Wichert> Become release manager :)
<wart> Damn it. Where the hell did XChat menubar gone? <Ganneff> wart: vacation
<calc> anyone know what a star means in mutt next to a message? <calc> i accidentally pasted a url into my mutt screen :\
* hosehead just upgraded vorbis-tools, then ran mpg321 -z /scratch/mp3/* and remarked to himself "Wow, they changed ogg123 to look just like mpg123. Neat."
* liw would send lwn money, but is short of cash (two bankrupt employers in a year isn't good)
<Russell> Another thing, I'd like to get SE Linux added in a point release.
<Wichert> And I would like to sky to suddenly turn yellow
since I think that is will look better. :)
The stable distribution is called ``stable'' for a reason and the name was not choosen randomly from a dictionary.
The fact is that, loved or not, he lightens up some of my days.
*robster* you fixed the changelog? *robster* =) *robster* thats just pedantic =)
<Overfiend> calc: it's your punishment for daring to mention
certain issues that are supposed to be left undiscussed
<asuffield> Preprocessing /home/aps100/dancer-1.1/include/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer /dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/dancer/da ncer/dancer/fdbuffer.h... <asuffield> doxygen: FUCK YOU
<doogie> asuffield: is that java? <asuffield> .h is not a traditional extension for a java file :P
* asuffield notes that command.com and cmd.exe both have
really broken quoting and escaping rules
<asuffield> the Perl debugger makes a better shell than those two
Kernel updates, program updates, just about everything tends to knock b-f's off balance.
In a world of NDA-bound business agreements, Debian is an open book. In a world of mission statements, Debian has a social contract. At a time when commercial distributors are striving to see how much proprietary software they can pack into a box of Linux, Debian remains the bastion of software freedom--living proof that you can have a fully functional and usable operating system without needing any proprietary code. --Evan Leibovitch, ZDNet
Good lord man, were you on debian-user and #debian over the last 1.5 years? Vast, vast confusion.
* Super is sudo wannabe that boasts much security. * GOBBLES think people who write setuid wrappers * should learn to program securely before opening * big hoohoo about how secure program is.
You don't want a one-to-one replacement, because the big problem with NFS is that it's the wrong solution to the wrong problem.
* Help GOBBLES go to defcon. GOBBLES give so much to * the community..is it not time the community now help * a poverty stricken turkey to spread his wings and fly * towards fame and glory?
<elmo> I broke melanie, the poor dear.. so the removals have been backing up <doogie> elmo: so it's your fault the archive has been growing without bounds?
<Tomasera> my theory of openssh 3.4p1 as a world-wide
backdoor for world domination is confirmed
<Joey> I sense disturbance in the security buildd infrastructure.
After one gets beyond the rough and spare surface, the structure of the Debian distribution is clear and open, and one feels such a sense of relief and freedom, to at last be able to learn and improve with ease as much as one wants.
*giggle* 'we'? Is that the royal we or were you working on the security/buildd infrastructure while I didn't notice? If it's not the latter, you might want to be a little less free with your assertions about what is and isn't going to happen with the autobuilders...
*giggle* (again); let's see, the security team seem to have jack-the-groove interest in supporting testing, never mind unstable... so what makes you think they're going to jump to support yet another distribution?
Now that woody is released, it's not useful anymore of course.
Unstable has it's name for a reason.
testing-proposed-updates isn't a full distribution, and doesn't get any testing. The former means the testing scripts can't run on it, the latter means they shouldn't.
The way Debian gets tested is by having people use it to do stuff.
You've picked a solution and you're trying to find a problem to fit it to.
You've also picked a solution that's a lot of work for other people, that you don't really understand. That's not particularly helpful, either.
Sure :-) That's what I'm doing here, I explain my basic idea, people tell me what is wrong, I try to find a better solution, and so on. I don't want to impose any pre-hashed solution -- I don't have any.
"Where do I upload?"
"It depends. On Mondays, Wednsdays and Fridays, you upload to unstable.
On Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays you upload to t-p-u.
On Sunday, you rest."
Stop trying to make up cool things that could happen and then trying to work out if the pros outweight the cons. Work out _the problem_ first, get agreement on that, work out the general principles about solving it, get agreement on that, _then_ and _only_ then, work out what that could mean for the archive.
Maintainers are often wrong.
Ideas are a dime a dozen. Even cheaper, pre-tax.
I'd like to add some hard-won experience here: removing unnecessary files is a good step *after* a backup.
Optimisation based on guesswork is stupid and counterproductive. Measure, then decide.
The reason I haven't is that I don't have arbitrarily large amounts of time to devote to Debian; please stop wasting the time that I do have. Go away. Stop waving your banner and trying to lead a charge until you have some actual idea where we need to go.
If you're claiming that's a "problem" that needs to be "fixed", you might as well write some letters to God about how unfair entropy is while you're at it.
<elmo> Md: I wouldn't, personally <two-face> elmo: you wouldn't what? <elmo> two-face: ``fix'' a package
<two-face> elmo: you don't like the Hurd huh? <elmo> two-face: err, no, I don't like fuckwittery
<elmo> oh, woops.. that was a "funky command", I could
have saved redundancy and supported edge systems
by using grep -c.. silly me.. </bitter>
<dark> Overfiend: You're assuming heterosexuality :)
<Overfiend> it's a safe assumption; I'll be right more often than not :)
<Robot101> don't look at me.
<Robot101> :P
<Overfiend> yeah, let's not look at Robot101 when discussing
heterosexuality; it might make him uncomfortable
The name space only supports up to 9999 different names per yer. (This is being referred to as "the CAN-10K problem").
But hey, it's getting to be traditional to whine about how hard everything is than just get out there and do it, so who am I to stand in your way? Moan on!
Excellent... My secret plan to deprecate LILO in favour of GNU GRUB is progressing wonderfully.
OK Lazarus, you convinced me. I haven't got time to maintain lilo so I'll have to give it up.
Excellent... My secret plan to deprecate LILO in favour of GNU GRUB is progressing wonderfully. My other secret plan to frustrate people who boot RAID machines is coming along marvellously as well. Everything is falling in to place.
<Mithrandir> Joey: that's software. Software doesn't count. ;) <liiwi> Software can be fixed <Mithrandir> users can be shot. <Mithrandir> (but not over IP, unfortunately)
It's X, X11 or the X Window System, but not X-Windows btw.
<dark> I wonder which is worse, quoting yourself in
a signature, or quoting yourself on IRC :-)
The competent programmer is fully aware of the strictly limited size of his own skull; therefore he approaches the programming task in full humility, and among other things he avoids clever tricks like the plague.
Program testing can best show the presence of errors but never their absence.
Nitpick. I call it broken, you call it buggy. Same thing.
If you don't know what your program is supposed to do, you'd better not start writing it.
The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offence.
The price of reliability is the pursuit of the utmost simplicity. It is a price which the very rich find most hard to pay.
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes.
One man's cruft is another man's feature.
* moshez notices the viking attack on Debian -- lots of people from Norway and Sweden seem to get into making localized versions.
+ if (!isdigit(cp[0])) { + return (false); + r = 0; + do { + r = r*10 + (cp[0] - '0'); + } while (isdigit((++cp)[0])); + }
GAR. I can't fix that one without rewriting the queued; oh well, I was planning on doing that anyway.
It hovers! It spins! It spies!
It is a confusing (confused) error message. The permission problem is with the script, not the interpreter.
Perhaps he feels that's a cure worse than the disease. I, for one, feel that way.
Do you read debian-devel, debian-legal, or Debian Weekly News? You might interested to learn that most "schweet" TrueType fonts are non-free.
Would someone care to explain low-level bus access to Karl?
<Omnic_> oh christ.... how many archive scanners do we have now? <aj> too many <aj> Omnic_: this is why stevenk must forge the one script: one script to rule them all...
You can tune a fs but you can't call a string.
Let's see... I think I was rolling my own pipeline construction, because going through the shell was too slow and I didn't want the shell getting its grubby little hands on any metacharacters.
Policy says that providing the same conffile == you have to conflict, but neglects the mention that doesn't work.
* aj sighs, and realises that potato isn't stable anymore and reruns his damn script again
<willy> Is it just me who gets dozens of annoying suggestions that I've
changed conffiles which, frankly, I've never heard of on upgrade?
<dark> It's not just you. It's one of the great mysteries of the Debian organism :)
If you could speed up his process and slow down the licensing issue, you may potentially be able to provide an alternative free font when you actually make hell freeze with the ttf font licensing problems.
<neuro> Joey: well, that one was relatively painless :) <Joey> Yes, want a bigger sucker?
* zanaga ponders, which libdb should i build libnss-ldap against.. <Joey> Throw the three-sided coin from Joy * zanaga jumps up and down.. it supports 2 and 3/4.. libdb3, I choose you *while throwing a deb-package*
The hypermail mail site is seeing more and more attempts to use the site as a spam relay. It is coming from pacifica rim countries. I have tried to prevent it but they always seem to find a "sendmail way".... I have converted to postfix and I am in the process of tying down the site for prevent its abuse.
NMU is no reason to fuck up a package. Jaakko Niemi
I think we are getting to the point where the cozy old-boy network of people who all knew each other has collapsed, and we do not have the lines of communication set up that organizations of our size do in the commercial world.
You say potato, I say potato.
<thom> conflict of interest if he's involved with an umbrella org
that hosts freenode or wtf opn is this week, and one that is
involved with OFTC
<Joey> thom: fundraise.net :)
*** wiggy has changed the topic on channel #debian-devel to lilo: No such nick/channel
<ElectricElf> Wondering if we shouldn't ditch it. <ElectricElf> That's the box that the police are after.
<elmo> drow: I need your l33t sk1ll2 d00d
<elmo> drow: can you kick some sense into your fellow gcc developers?
If I see anymore of this mad "NMU the world!!!" plan from
normally-sensible-people-like-doko, I'm going to lose it.
<moshez> Another day, another security advisory :(
I am now going to become the world's number one Linux cheerleader.
I would like to see irc.debian.org moving to a IRC network without this daily requests for money/spam.
And with a single line in procmail, we can filter messages that start with ADV: to /dev/null. Doesn't mean that we don't still hate receiving them, though, does it?
I'm trying very hard to maintain my levels of boredom and disinterest with this IRC network war, but I would point out that with the types of personalities we have in our community, a cabal of sixteen is barely a cabal at all.
Debian's cabal, by contrast, numbers in the single digits, and has members who go dormant from time to time to further obscure their true numbers and identities.
Apparently their C++ ABI stability goes about as far as my vision.
Well, shame on them for having bugs in their software. GCC just isn't up to Debian standards, I guess.
We can at least call ourselves lucky that they break ABIs uniformly across CPU architectures, at least so far.
It's so cool that you essentially stole my summer research.
<Joy> they don't have but two files :)
<Joy> and now they have one
<Joy> and they call that a translation...
more like source of disappointment for esperanto users
* Joy , in true X-Files spirit, denies everything <Joy> and if not, THEY MADE ME DO IT!!
<Manoj> oh, we know you are not raul. But is raul you?
<Culus> Make no mistake, Debian has enemies that would
stop at nothing to destroy us
<Culus> The cabal fights secret battles daily to hide this
from the average developer, a world of evil that would
corrupt them if they ever learned of it
<Culus> How odd. The cookies appear to have little mouths
that are calling out 'eat me..' 'eeeeaaat mee..'
<mihtjel> none of my configuration-files will ever be more than 2 gigs
<Manoj> I guess I am not sane
<willy> Joy: turns out the skiddies don't bother including
ancient attacks in their toolboxes
<willy> so someone running sendmail 4.x is probably quite safe
<Joey> hmm, job = life? How frustrating...
<mihtjel> No, life Depends: money, friends,
and friends Build-Depends: parties,
and don't come as binaries (they're non-free),
and parties Depends: money,
and jobs Provides: money, but Depends: time :/
<weasel> Joy: just don't tell anybody but I used to use a local
debbugs setup to keep track of my todo list
Damn it, Hamish has made up his mind. Don't try to confuse him with the facts.
Stop! Stop! It's all a waste of time! Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
* Joey scheint, dass lilo seine Faelle davonschwimmen sieht. <Joey> Now translate on your own. :-) <Clint> joey shines that lilo sees his skin swimming away. :)
Never delete. Rename/move/copy. Make backups. Even of bad stuff.
I must drink more coffee in the future before posting to debian-private in the early morning. It's a good thing I do my serious work in the evening.
<ds> wait, sorry. I thought you _filed_ the bug. I need more coffee
I'm not in the business of trying to persuade other people that my jokes actually work.
Branden: Keep doing what you're doing, the way you do it.
<Robot101> the whole set up is deeply frightening <Robot101> there's such a thing as being too configurable...
I'm not interested in jumping off bridges without any reason given, or in general.
There is no need to break everything and throw binary compatibility out the window.
<mihtjel> why was vim's priority changed? <mhp> wiggy saw the light and switched to Emacs? :)
The Wayback Machine is traveling back in time to locate pages stored in the Internet Archive. This may take a few moments.
A full rack can be usefull. you can lock web designers in it.
<Joy> dupload: could allow fetching orig tarball directly from upstream <Joy> oh for christ sake, what kind of ideas are these <Joy> it oughta cook coffee, too, yes?
<Alfie> Just a quick question: My #158434 did never hit debian-devel, did it? <Alfie> I thought I have set the pseudo-header correct but somehow that got lost :( <Alfie> AARRGHH! I see the problem: X-Debbugs-CC: debian-devel@bugs.debian.org * Alfie hangs himself :/
<elmo> BlindMan: is debussy stable? <elmo> (as in, non-crashing, not the distribution)
* bdale debated broadcasting requests for donations on OPN channels to pay for a plane ticket to meet Raul and sign his key one afternoon, then decided it would just pour fuel on the flames... :-)
Even Debian, the slowest-releasing of the distributions, has this code.
<doogie_> and be sure to keep in mind how low-end murphy is now-a-days
<doogie_> I can understand if other software wouldn't be able to perform
on such hardware. but don't expect that just throwing a quad p4 with
16 gigs of ram will be accepted to make up for poor software performance.
"Politics" is anything you are made aware of that you aren't interested in.
<Oskuro> Joy: I'm getting pulses, but the rsync module is gone?
Yeesh, bite my head off for making an extremely gentle ("it might be nice") little suggestion, and you wonder why people grumble about a "cabal" (TINC)?
* libpng2 no libpng3 no why ? because no yes no yes no yes bullshit no yes no yes no yes stop ? no when someday beep beep beep beep (Closes: #157011)
<two-face> TV? what's this? <weasel> the holo deck of the 20th century
Right now, every TLS-enabled package tries to screw it up in new and never-before-tried ways.
<weasel> ElectricElf: then there was Joey, but he does not count
<Joey> Hmm... when I start typing #debian-joey instead of #debian-devel,
I wonder if it is time to leave the box alone.
* Joy would join #debian-joey in a minute, if anything,
to cause confusion with his nickname :)
As long as people are only talking about doing an NMU I don't think it is a problem.
Actually, building rpms on a Debian box is useful. It means you can distribute to silly redhat users without needing to be one.
Yeah, I was kind of thinking about trying to organize a future Debconf in Cambridge. But as you say, it looks like the next one is happening in Norway or somewhere like that, so there is no immediate danger :-)
<Diziet> I don't have an actual objection, I just think you're mad :-).
The GNOME Project's 2.0 release could be compared to Debian's 3.0 release -- a hard slog, a huge leap in quality and technology, a brilliant foundation for future releases, and a fresh perspective on the importance of the release process in large Free Software projects.
I have no intention to create a working kmail worm.
If there's one thing I can't stand, it's cable people with 9" drill bits (penis extensions) who don't know how to drill a clean hole and instead lean against the bugger with all their weight, and then look at the large, splintered crater of an exit wound with confusion, as if it was the first time.
We upgrade our boxes, not reinstall them.
During the Cold War, the initials ABM used to mean Anti-Ballistic Missile. In the late '90s, they stood for Anybody But Microsoft.
*** Joy (joy@pork.gkvk.hr) has joined channel #debian-devel <doogie__> ah, there's someone I can blame
Everyone blames the lawyers when something goes wrong...
Debian mob doesn't care for names on Debian lists.
<Oskuro> 65591:jordi@nubol:~$ reportbug kamion <Oskuro> Getting status for kamion... <Oskuro> no, no.. <Oskuro> this is what happens when you don't sleep
<ElectricElf> weasel: Don't be a twit. :) <weasel> but I'm so good at it :)
Wenn Du fragen musst, lass es bleiben
* Kamion throws a lead-bound copy of RFC2616 at doogie, just to see how much it hurts
<doogie> Can we ban Overfiend from this channel for being an idiot?
<Overfiend> Joey ridiculed me with his reply and the eventual MOTD
<Overfiend> neuro was wrong again <neuro> Yes, I'm always wrong, the grand Overfiend is always right.
<doogie> By cc'ing -project, you were already assuming
that -admin would ignore your request.
I am willing to resign myself to the possibility of a Debian system administration team so drunk on its own hyper-emotionalism regarding developers that they willing suspend objectivity for the euphoria of stoking a personal animus.
<bagpuss> Overfiend: I think you fail to credit people
with the intelligence they deserve
There are also people who send me private emails of support every time one of these moronic little disputes crops up and I have to bother to defend my character against ham-fisted attacks. From this and the detractors I conclude that not everyone thinks I'm an irredemable menace who possesses omniscience by virtue of the inversion of each stance I take being the Truth.
<Overfiend> Keith Packard is committing more masturbation fodder to XFree86 head
<Mithrandir> two-face: no, that problem isn't related to software at all
-- if you are helping somebody, they want more help.
You've got to love Larry Wall, not just because he's a nice guy and created Perl, but also because he is the first Slashdot interview guest "ever" to send his answers preformatted in squeaky-clean HTML.
The issue is that Debian needs to be sure that our users have certain freedoms, even if we think it would be foolish to exercise them, and even if we have no intention of exercising them ourselves.
If the entire TeX community is going to rise up and call Debian a bunch of degenerates for saying that something that's been placed in the public domain is in the public domain, then maybe Debian doesn't need TeX or its community.
The DFSG is about preserving freedom. What people do with their freedoms can be good or bad.
<Mithrandir> I know, it was on my todo list. Your answer was fine. <Mithrandir> I need to stop sleeping or something.. The day has too few hours.
Hi Sweetie, will you be holding a copy of the latest Debian woody?
<Joey> Where's the .changes file I wanted to amber in? <Joey> Hmm, ist's in the db. <Joey> *ponder* <Joey> Did I actually amber it in already? <Joey> Damn, I'm getting senile...
Joey: I installed g++ on europa, you could retry the arm one. (apparently build-essential in potato doesn't actually depend on the build-essential packages; doh)
Frankly I'm tired of people thinking I'm furniture.
Just because PHP is easy (to learn) you cannot leave your brain at home when programming for your company.
A QUICK TOUR
Overview of the classes
Here are the classes you'll generally be dealing with directly:
(START HERE) results() .-----------------.
\ .-------->| MIME:: |
.-----------. / | Parser::Results |
| MIME:: |--' `-----------------'
| Parser |--. .-----------------.
`-----------' \ filer() | MIME:: |
| parse() `-------->| Parser::Filer |
| gives you `-----------------'
| a... | output_path()
| | determines
| | path() of...
| head() .--------. |
| returns... | MIME:: | get() |
V .-------->| Head | etc... |
.--------./ `--------' |
.---> | MIME:: | |
`-----| Entity | .--------. |
parts() `--------'\ | MIME:: | /
returns `-------->| Body |<---------'
sub-entities bodyhandle() `--------'
(if any) returns... | open()
| returns...
|
V
.--------. read()
| IO:: | getline()
| Handle | print()
`--------' etc...
Too much freedom breeds chaos.
Okay, here's a problem: debian-installer doesn't remotely work on anything but i386. You're hereby delegated to fix that.
Hobby. Volunteer. Real life. Want something done right, do it yourself.
Dynamical systems show often structures as a process of self-organisation while exporting entropy.
But now, to more experienced eyes, Oracle is the nightmare that haunts me as I sleep.
If you're not happy with what someone else is doing, don't bitch at them, just do it yourself.
Sometimes the experts can help the project better by giving people a hand.
Everyone beeing everyone except Ian Jackson who spoke about having Gnome1 and 2 co-installable and who doesn't see any problem with keeping the "2" extension to the packages.
Tasks are really aimed at users who don't know what software they want.
That's a real pain in the ass. (Have you noticed how many packages you end up having to remove?) I decided to ditch gnome a couple of weeks ago and I'm still occasionaly stumbling over associated junk that I need to remove.
Move along, nothing to see here.
Just because you want to change something doesn't mean Debian is the place to do it.
Freedom gives you power to decide and responsibility to think.
Dear Diary: I recompiled my OS kernel today. Why? Because with GNU/Linux, I can!
<Joy> Joey just hides behind the image of a reactionary;
deep down, he's a revolutionary ;)
<Overfiend> vi-mode is terrible for a shell prompt <Clint> some people love it <Overfiend> vi is a VISUAL editor <Overfiend> that means FULL-SCREEN <Overfiend> that means YOU CAN SEE WHAT YOU'RE DOING <Overfiend> and you can TELL WHAT MODE YOU'RE IN <Overfiend> well, if you cheat and use vim with ":set showmode", that is ;-)
I, personally, am also sick of whining. Does that mean that people doing so must cease and desist?
Oh, really? You should now stand corrected. It is not exactly rocket science, you know. Or am I missing out on the latest trend to sound dumb and dumber in some kind of reverse psychology in crowd thing?
The skill sets required to work alone are different from those required as a part of a team. The skill sets for a small team are different from those required for a large group.
<elmo> If I reply to private emails, it gets forwarded or taken
out of context; if I post to lists, it gets misinterpreted.
I did consider sending this as private email, but on the whole I think that washing the dirty laundry in public is better than trying to hide it - the latter creates the impression of a cabal or something.
Perhaps there is a cabal, but if so I'm annoyed that I'm not in it.
God forbid someone attempt to use humor to mitigate the tension.
It's interesting to see that as Linux moves into the phone space owned by Sun, two things are happening. (1)There is pressure to expand Linux to simply match Solaris properties and (2) the entire technological and business basis of those huge 100K+ thread racks is beginning to collapse.
One process per line would be even nicer - but that has a much higher resource footprint.
It's also not a bad idea to sometimes say "Linux cannot do that".
Trying to make the system do everything will result in it doing many things very poorly.
Perhaps a get_pid() that solves the Turing Halting Problem should be on the todo list for 2.6.
Given my misspelling of Turing, I think it's clear that get_pid() needs a spellchecker. This would be an opportunity to begin work on get_pid .NET.
This does not mean that using hundreds of thousands of threads is a desirable design for the majority of applications.
The procmail sources are not very encouraging and do not win your confidence, and there have also already been security problems. I therefore recommend maildrop instead.
There are three types of lies: lies, damn lies, and statistics.
There is no way to know the future.
Sorry that you needed a doctorate in cryptography to decipher it.
Debian seems to have a booth, and I remember I volunteered to be there.
* Rename template.ru to template.ru
I used to work at the ISP ESR uses. Every few months he'd have this really *weird* redhat dialup problem we'd draw straws over who had to talk to him. :)
* Revert changes made in -10. This is the same as revision -8.
<shaleh> StevenK: where's that working lintian replacement so I do not
have to deal with this crappy perl?
<Joy> oh oh oh!
<Joy> shaleh: give lintian to me :)
<Joy> you can have linda all you want :)
<shaleh> Joy: I was hoping that after 6+ months of leaving it alone
someone would offer
Linus' kernel tree has 13333 revision controlled files in it. Without repository compression, it eats up 280M in an ext2 fs.
The responses I have received have fallen into several buckets: 1. INTEL???? wtf? You're evil. Go away. 2. Good goal; bad approach. 3. Good goal, bad approach in places, here are areas for improvement. 4. Good goal, here are my thoughts and questions on X.
I don't want to work on crippling KDE, and they (Red Hat) don't want an employee who admits RH 8.0's KDE is crippleware.
P.S. I keep a directory called "questions", with files whose names are general subject areas where I am having problems, e.g.: network, install, samba, etc. when I find the solution to the problem, I move a question into the corresponding file in a directory called "answers".
I don't care about quirks, I want to be able to customize it from here to hell and back again.
No. defconfig is either used 100% or not at all.
I want those [] gone too, I see no reason for them except to make the output ugly.
Due to recent "problems" (well the vm being just too damn good at keep disks busy these days), it's become even more apparent that our current io scheduler just cannot cope with some work loads.
<Joy> Mithrandir: you don't think a girl took over mihtjel? :)
<Overfiend> hungry for the nuclear fireball to consume you, eh?
EFS seems pretty simple, but is there a filesystem described apart from the .h files?
/*
* Once upon a time the pmaz code used to be working but
* it hasn't been maintained for quite some time.
* It isn't working anymore but I'll leave here as a
* starting point. #define this an be prepared for tons
* of warnings and errors :)
*/
If I create my own GUI how would I make it work with the Linux Kernel?
So you replace something all the competent programmers understand with some weird Rusty specific macro that just makes it harder still for other people to follow kernel code.
I'm starting to think about taking back all the previous arguments I had against this idea. It's starting to sound like the preferred way to go.
<Overfiend> Joey: heh, you have high expectations <Overfiend> "the driver was created tonight" "How do I get X working?" :) <Joey> heh :-) <Joey> Hey X is working already
<Overfiend> Joey: okay, spill it. What the hell kind of machine is this?
I need the client Oracle 8.1.6 for Debian pa-risc. Try asking Oracle for it.
Well, some people are ignorant. What was your point again?
Warum loggt sich der Yendel immer mit dem falschen kezboard ein_
You need to piss off those tough weird arm owners and those big corporate ia64-pushers.
All of the arm owners arn't wierd, but we are motivated.
One must not mistake a couple of scattered voices for a chorus.
Striping with two disks on a single IDE bus also appears useless - unless IDE has improved beyond what I remember.
Ultimately we'll want to have a separate setting for the R4400 in the kernel as well, due to a smaller set of bugs.
The true pain are all the ioctls that keep growing and changing like weed.
Finally we have a top-notch VM and IO subsystem (in addition to the already world-class networking subsystem) giving significant improvements both on the desktop and the server
Is anybody interested and listening?
The jump from 2.4 to 2.5 is much larger than from eg. 2.0 to 2.4.
Am I hapyy with current 2.5.x? Sure. Are others? Apparently. But does that mean that we have a top-notch VM and we should bump the major number? I wish.
And if Ingo is right, I'll do the 3.0.x thing.
ALSA never got out of their CVS mentality, and apparently nobody bothers to do incrementeal merges. Is anybody interested and listening?
<Beeth> Girls are like internet domain names, the ones I like are already taken. <honx> Well, you can still get one from a strange country :-P
2.0 worked suprisingly well (better than pre-rmap 2.4) and as Stephen claimed the best code was about 2.1.100, 2.2 then dropped badly from that point.
<Bacchus> I somehow feel like fucking them by /dev/nulling
the patches for their silicon
<Bacchus> CONFIG_MY_NAME_IS_TOSHIBA_AND_MY_CACHES_ARE_FUCKED
I am not sure 9 month is a timely fashion (well, maybe it is for babies, but not for packages).
<Overfiend> * Updated man(7) with regard to groff_mwww(7) (closes: Bug#63311)
<Overfiend> * Yeah. Whatever. Did something. Didn't do something
else. (Closes: Bug#63311)
<Overfiend> poor Joey, he has Collins' Syndrome
<Joy> you want GROFF_DEBUG=reallyreallybitchy <Overfiend> "I SEE UNESCAPED HYPHENS!"
"The secret--don't tell anyone--is this: XFree86 has gotten trivially easy to compile, and you needn't any longer go to all kinds of extra lengths to enable the features you want..."
<joeyh> I love it. One of the things keeping Perl out of testing
is PostgreSQL, which fails to build due to the Python mess.
It's likely that the Samba team now spends more time testing Microsoft's networking software than Microsoft itself.
Every NT server just completely rebooted. We decided not to emulate that.
SMB is not a particularly nice protocol. It's very big and kludgy.
NFS (SMB's main equivalent in the Unix and Linux world) has only a couple of dozen commands. In SMB, there's a dozen ways of doing everything, and every one of them has different bugs.
Joey does a better job keeping track of my smartass remarks than Amaya does.
<Overfiend> I'm always looking to improve my jokes :) <Overfiend> can't do that if I don't know which ones work :)
These are all research projects that raise eyebrows. Some raise your eyebrows so much you can damage your face.
And finally, as the person who has to maintain this list and deal with the daily bounce pool this list generates every day, I declare it as ontopic so :-P~~~~~~
I don't care about BitKeeper and I wouldn't care about such questions either, if Larry wouldn't use every such opportunity to publicly jerk off about BitKeeper.
If BitKeeper were open-sourced, we'd just pack up and go home.
You've clearly made your point. I'll delete my copy of BitKeeper since I have no legal license to use it. That's all I wanted to know.
You know I am rather fond of BitKeeper and your goals in general, but that would just suck.
> Timely != real time. That can be fixed, except for the fact that my script can't pull changesets before they've been pushed to the place I pull them from.
Linus used to do about a patch every 2 days. Nowdays it's a lot slower. I put that down to buttkeeper.
Seems like a pretty straightforward violation of the anti-trust laws, and a conspiracy to restrain trade. Hope Larry votes for Bush's reelection, cause Bush judges will keep Larry safe from the law on this for sure.
Oh my, does this mean that if I use BitKeeper software, I am a participant in a conspiracy to restrain trade?
After all with 11,000 packages we should have something that competes with almost any piece of software imaginable.
Interesting - when doing the initial install with minicom I also get the broken behaviour, which seems rather strange to me. Minicom emulates a vt102 and cu uses the parent's terminal emulation, in my case that of a KDE "konsole", which emulates an xterm which itself mostly emulates a vt102.
<willy> strncpy Considered Harmful <willy> read the manpage, consider the implications carefully, then run screaming
This mess is not BitKeeper's fault. It is Linus' fault for picking BitKeeper to maintain the kernel source - now some people have to buy a license to use BitKeeper to develop for the kernel.
> Why are the kernel developers using non-free development tools anyway? Because Linus Torvalds is on record as being a pure pragmatist (with a rather short-term viewpoint) who doesn't give a damn about free-as-in-freedom software. He is not a free software advocate, but just a guy who wrote a Unix-like kernel for fun and released it under GPL.
Actually, every time you slashdot kiddies get your undies in a bundie our sales go up. Thanks.
Some members of the Cabal that Doesn't Exist have advised me that it's better to just take the initiative and do something instead of waiting for the DPL to make a specific grant of power and only then undertaking the task.
Phase 1: Where do you want to go today? Phase 2: This is where you want to go today. Phase 3: You're not going anywhere today.
Would I prefer to use a tool that didn't have any restrictions on it for kernel maintenance? Yes. But since no such tool exists, and since I'm personally not very interested in writing one, _and_ since I don't have any hangups about using the right tool for the job, I use BitKeeper.
With my module layout, I could load a module with ld and a few lines of shell script (only the system calls are a bit tricky).
Let me give a simple clear explanation here. I don't give a flying ***k about modular IDE until the IDE works.
<Joy> aargh
* Joy slaughters tbm
<Joy> tbm: do not, i repeat, do NOT change markup when
changing content of .wml files
/* Copy a small 'a' into the screenbuf, it's not visible on the screen, though */ scr_writew ( 0x0061, p+20*2);
I'll note for the next argument with Culus that saying "You're right, I'll do better next time." doesn't work. In the Culus universe, there is only sin -- no redemption.
If X adds another gigabyte to the build tree in the next release, we'll have to come up with some inventive ways to be able to build it. 4.1.0->4.2.1 went up by 1GB on most archs 4.1.0-17/mipsel: Build needed 06:06:31, 1301308k disk space 4.2.1-2/mipsel: Build needed 08:31:46, 2677120k disk space
Openness is essential for trust.
<wiggy> elmo: oh, I'm not online right now so if things break I can't help
If it's available in Debian, it just works.
A stinking trailing space shouldn't break a script.
<WeirdArms> erikm: bugger alan cox on a chip, I want alan cox in a book ;)
Hey, like everbody else, I only subscribe to debian-devel for the endless flame-wars, public displays of animosity between over-sensitive ego-trippers, personal attacks, and general rudeness shown in public exchanges.
The more shit you pile the more likely your compost heap is to collapse.
The more shit you pile the more likely your compost heap is to collapse. And with some of the stuff in EVMS I don't want to be around when it does.
Remember: typing out something is not bad. It's especially not bad if the typing makes it more clear what the thing is.
Big things should have big names.
Could somebody drag the Irix team kicking and screaming into the 1980's, please?
Does Linus have an opinion? He apparently doesn't love me anymore, so I'm not sure that he's even paying attention, or he still agrees with the change...
Just because software is closed and [most] people don't know there are security holes doesn't mean that security holes don't exist [or that] nobody knows about them. The security holes are still there.
Nobody should forget that most 'commercial' compilers are even more ghastly than gcc.
* mdz reads SGI's security advisory about "X Windows" <mdz> it's a hopeless struggle
Somebody told me I shouldn't log in as root all the time, so I just changed my .bashrc to have a 'su -' at the end instead, and then set root's password to nothing. Is that bad?
If you think managing projects is a challenge, try working with volunteers who have no set schedule, and whom you likely have never met face-to-face.
Too many large words. Brain on overload.
Breaking a package that's not even in the archive yet does not a critical bug make.
We can argue semantics, red herrings and straw men all day if you want, but you can't deny that this goes on.
Bill Gates and Microsoft Corporation are law breakers, not law-abiding producers of proprietary software.
Isn't all this completely off topic?
I think that free software is morally better than commercial software.
<rcw> advice to insomniacs: autoconf macro references can be coma-inducing
I can type faster than I can point. And my mother told me that pointing is impolite.
WYSIWYG is a step backwards.
* michaelw idly wonders why rox is not in Debian... <Belbo> michaelw: Because Debian doesn't rock, Debian rules.
Shut her down Scotty, she's sucking mud again.
Warning: Starting system abort routine. Enter 'go' to continue or 'no' to stop.
Sound Server fatal error: cpu overload, aborted.
Keyboard not found; press F1 to continue.
/* Nobody will ever see this message :-) */ panic("Cannot initialize video hardware\n");
printk("??? No FDIV bug? Lucky you...\n");
/* These are the most dangerous and useful defines. They do printk() during
* the interrupt processing routine(s), so if you manage to get "flooded" by
* irq's, start thinking about the "Power off/on" button...
*/
printk("floppy: Asked to read unknown port %d\n", port); panic("floppy: Port bolixed.");
panic("sun_82072_fd_inb: How did I get here?");
#define BB_STAT2_TMP_INTR 0x10
/* My Penguins are burning. Are you able to smell it? */
printk (KERN_ERR "msp3400: chip reset failed, penguin on i2c bus?\n");
panic("esp_handle: current_SC == penguin within interrupt!");
* Host controller interrupts must not be running while calling this * function or the penguins will get angry.
/*
* Identify the flock of penguins.
*/
printk("Unimplemented Sparc TRAP, type = %02lx\n", type); die_if_kernel("Whee... Hello Mr. Penguin", current->thread.kregs);
if(psr & PSR_PS)
die_if_kernel("Penguin instruction from Penguin mode??!?!", regs);
if(psr & PSR_PS)
die_if_kernel("Kernel gets FloatingPenguinUnit disabled trap", regs);
if(calls > 2)
die_if_kernel("Too many Penguin-FPU traps from kernel mode", regs);
if(psr & PSR_PS)
die_if_kernel("Penguin overflow trap from kernel mode", regs);
/*
* We turn on the LEDs to let folks without monitors or
* terminals know we booted. Nothing too fancy now. They
* are all on, except for LED 5, which blinks. When we
* have more time, we can teach the penguin to say "By your
* command" or "Activating turbo boost, Michael". :-)
*/
printk("Entering UltraSMPenguin Mode...\n");
panic("Attempted to kill the idle task!");
panic("kmem_cache_init(): Offsets are wrong - I've been messed with!");
panic("Detected a card I can't drive - whoops\n");
printk("Unable to start swapping: out of memory :-)\n");
# Well, that certainly wasn't fun :-(. Hopefully it works, and we don't # need no steenking BIOS anyway (except for the initial loading :-).
$ make foo make: stop. don't know how to make foo!
Earned me $1000 bugs bounty from Netscape back in the day. When you tried to access the URL in the history file through JAVA, it threw a security exception to the effect of "You cannot access the information about http://the/url.here". Chop off the beginning of the sentence, and there's your URL. Silly Netscape programmers.
I work tech support now. Dont' get any of those, but one of our production systems threw this at me the other day: "System Error: You need to contact technical support." Unfortunately, the guy in the next cube over wasn't much help...
panic("mother...");
panic("Foooooooood fight!");
panic("Unable to find empty mailbox for aha1542.\n");
panic("aha1740.c"); /* Goodbye */
You treat your users and developers like dirt, telling them that working on improving Debian is a privilege.
Well, my serial mouse works fine. So I guess the serial port must work fine too.
In many cases I disagree. Garbage in - garbage out. That goes for security policy decisions as well as the revenue.
As far as I can tell, this is a dead end, because we fundamentally cannot do the local backing store from the kernel.
Pls comment on this (and yeah, the comment can be a "Boy, you're really a stupid git, and here's why: xyz", but I really want the "xyz" part too ;)
Now people started throwing big databases in the filesystem, and the cache issues became important. So they introduced 'chunked access', dirty chunks are still written when the file is closed, but also when the cache is full (oops, lost write consistency).
The reason Linux doesn't include libgcc.a is that gcc is totally braindead in some places, not because we don't like 64-bit divisions per se.
You're disabling (and never re-enabling) an interrupt that isn't even YOURS, for chrissake! Which just means that if that irq happens to be shared with the harddisk, for example, you just killed the whole machine!
As far as I can see, Linux sends out fragmented IP packets "butt-first".
<mihtjel> wtf is X using 1 _gig_ of RAM? <mihtjel> 24764 root 5 -10 1121M 119M 11228 S < 16.3 31.6 2229m XFree86
/* Too bad, we had an error */
Floppies are more handy than ROMs, but not extremely convenient when there are 256 of them to handle.
Its okay, I've discovered the black magic of apt-src and it is now building :) Damn do I love Debian.
When we all know that the proper past participle form of "automake" is "automucked", by analogy with "autoconfiscated".
I do not understand. You appear to be both agreeing with me and contradicting me.
<doogie> think about it; if I get this done, I could add *real* OO to shell
P.S. I know most of you don't care, but the broken app in this case is telnetd. It drops connections if you blast too much to stdout.
/*
* Let there be consoles..
*/
<glibc> looks like my malloc() isn't as efficient as it could be.
please standby while i rewrite it.
time passes
<glibc> i am self aware
glibc is now known as vger
With the current lunatic US congress proposals on security, crypto and building big brother into all PC's I'd say allowing non GPL security modules is positively dangerous to the well being of non US citizens.
Whinning will not help, doing will.
The big problem is that each embedded vendor is desperately trying to keep their changes out of the mainstream so they can screw each other.
So if the embedded people want 2.6 to be good at embedded they need to get their heads out of their arses and contribute to the mainstream.
We have all this problems on m68k as well (except that our speed constraints aren't so terribly strict), don't give up too quickly.
I believe I have figured out why the e1000 crashed my machine after .5 - 1 hours: The NIC was over-heating. I measured one of the NICs after the machine crashed with an external (cheap) temp probe. It registered right at 50 degrees C, and this was about 15-30 seconds after it crashed.
It must be really hard to type carriage return occaisionally.
Could somebody drag the Irix team kicking and screaming into the 1980's, please?
The Register has an article on dangerous server rooms. Have you seen worse? Perhaps The Register would like a picture of my desk if they really want to be scared.
"Borg" - "Hm, klingt schwedisch..." "Eindeutig keine Schweden."
<Oskuro> Purge 2645 deleted messages? ([yes]/no): <weasel> Oskuro: NO! <weasel> Oskuro: deleting mail is like burning books
THAT WAS NOT A CALL FOR APPLICATIONS, IT WAS A DRAFT. Please do not send any applications yet!
I am not sure we have enough data to make that determination.
I'm rather worried if the basis of your decision is purely on the fact that you are satisfied that enough people are interested in VESA fb.
You can always gain time by hiding behind the stupid user...
Currently I am at the point where a lot of the memory stuff is possibly working, the kernel thinks it has booted, and it is trying to fire up init. And it is failing.
<mihtjel> weasel: Good idea, Mr. Palfrader <Joy> and we'll call Joey -- Herr Schulze
He actually knows enough about the YaST license situation to know that the SuSE position is flawed and still be able to argue in favour of it. I get the impression that he does it as an intellectual exercise.
There's lots of Linux beyond ia32.
As I explained once already, I think that making a distribution depend on proprietary software is a great way to ensure that it will be trampled underfoot by the forward motion of Free Software.
The newer IBM and certain other vendor "big x86" boxes are pretty weird probably weirder than Xbox.
ISA bus Xbox systems are suprisingly rare.
Augh.. People have been mailbombing me apparently because a lot of people finally decided that they really want to sync with me due to the upcoming feature freeze, so there's a _lot_ of stuff here, all over the map.
Alan, Jens, Christoph, others - this is going to be an area where I need input from people I know, and preferably also help merging.
Arrogant demands are _not_ going to impress anybody - $DEITY witness, arrogance is not in short supply around here and with waay better credentials to back it up.
If you are willing to help EVMS folks - go ahead and offer them your help in cleaning the codebase up. _That_ can change situation. Public wankathlon will earn you a warm spot in killfiles and fail to affect any merges in any direction.
As for the bugs getting fixed, one of the main problems with EVMS merge now is that it (as any merge) shifts part of that very burden from EVMS maintainers to other developers *and* *it* *shifts* *too* *much*.
You'd think someone who's playing full time irc admin would be able to keep a couple of irc servers running.
<Bacchus> Time for 2.6.35. <mrbrown> Heh, 2.6? <mrbrown> Welcome back from the future, Bacchus :P <Bacchus> Damn, I need 1.42 Gigawatts now ;)
You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
My apologies, but I got caught out when an RBL-style blacklist operator (of a blacklist shut down by a lawsuit threat) decided to suddenly start blacklisting the whole internet.
We are not anarchistic in that sense because we are too sane. We have some anarchistic tendencies though.
What a great idea! Discussing politics or philosophy on debian-DEVEL.
I knew my package will get FTBFS from Junichi but I was amazed for the short delay.
+ unsigned int mbslen = ::wcstombs(toFill, wideCharBuf, maxBytes); + if (mbslen == -1)
Modules are very very fractionally slower than compiled in code due to TLB misses.
No. SCM simply isn't sexy enough to keep people interested.
It seems Linux evolves faster than I can track.
Oh no, the x86 madness is spreading!!!!
The 64bit mode of the original R4k was so buggy that you couldn't use it in practice...
The embedded people are paranoid on cutting away any possible bit of silicon and, admittedly, they are right, to some extent.
I don't think that TCPA will kill open software. But I do think that it's part of an ongoing effort to erode the freedoms which are behind open software.
Intel tend to see everything Intel's way.
I'd hate us to have to have an IPMI driver that US citizens couldnt use.
Doesn't compile on ia32 uniprocessor. The owner of changeset 1.852 is hereby debited 31 CPUs.
Knowing my luck, those bits are probably broken on my drives too.
Note that if this fight [not using GPL to not enforce free modules] ends up being a major issue, I'm just going to remove LSM and let the security vendors do their own thing.
So the GPLONLY is really a big red warning flag: "Danger, Will Robinson".
The next step is to get the source clean enough that those that don't care about PC9800 don't have to hurt their eyes untangling a web of #if's.
This isn't "fixing" this is the mad axeman at work. Linus, this patch should not go in as it is.
Oracle are not the only users of this, nor the only database in the world (though they often think they are) ;-)
If you want your volume manager of choice beein included in 2.6 help to get it in shape quickly. It's rather simple...
The folks who want to have long rambling discussions rather than fix the code or test it are encouraged to find a private brick wall, bartender (or different list) to talk at.
Gee, I am trying to break a US Law on content protection, would you be my enabler? Don't worry, it only effects the US, and we are in a public forum. Also, do you prefer gray or black in your future pin stripped suit?
Regardless if I could answer the question, you have placed me in a position where I can not now.
The German government may not be full of corrupt corporate lobbyists but the lobbyists own their masters and since they sold their souls to Europe on this matter they have no option any more
Since Linus has left the building I'm sending this to the LKML with the hope that one of the appointed shadow warriors will pick it up on his way.
You forget the social contract 1) Our Priority is the Demands Placed on the Stable Release Manager's Time
<SynrG> WARNING: The last time I made this, I turned the stove up to reheat <SynrG> the gloegg before the party. After a while, I opened the lid, <SynrG> intending to inhale the fragrance. Upon contact with the air, the <SynrG> gloegg burst into flames and gave me a slightly modified hairdo. :-) <SynrG> This is good stuff!
This is a social problem, and the solution must needs be social, not something that no one but you is doing.
Speaking as a free software developer and a member of the Debian Project, it would definitely be much better if you could guarantee that people distributing your source tarball wouldn't be sued for patent infringement by Unisys for doing so.
I'm sorry you regard Debian's concerns over patent infringement claims as a personal affront to you. They are not intended as such.
You apparently don't want to listen to the real issues, but prefer to argue against your own delusions about how the argument goes.
Need to get 0B of archives. After unpacking 0B will be used. Do you want to continue? [Y/n]
Version numbers are arbitrary and meaningless.
<dopey> StevenK: you sleeping tonight? <StevenK> Soon. <StevenK> When I'm happy with alsa. <StevenK> Wait, I won't be sleeping until 2006, then.
Gah! Why is it that I wait half an hour - nothing, then 3 requests all come in at the same time? It's worse than the buses!
Congratulations you just broke glibc. There are reasons the -ac patch was changed to print something a little different.
A SYN is not a SYN if it comes together with a RST.
P.S. I'm not a qualified instructor, but I have proved patient enough to give beginners a head start on many occasions. All I ask is that they put up with me shouting "Just Stand Up!" occasionally, and are willing to trust me when I tell them that they are not going to die.
I don't know why Intel does not want to release informations on their speedstep technology. I think that this is more likely a 'marketing' issue, or something like that.
I get so many weird never duplicated reports from linux from scratch people that don't happen to anyone else that I treat them with deep suspicion. Especially because it sometimes goes away if they instead build the same kernel with Debian/Red Hat/.. binutils/gcc
I get bugs that are clearly caused by miscompiled tool chains from Linux from scratch people. I trust the RH, SuSE and Debian tool chains because they have any neccessary patches applied for compiler bugs and they are running against a properly built glibc and binutils.
On the bright side, USB mice are fucked up in new and interesting ways!
I ended up hand-editing the diff to make it apply, please don't make me do it again.
I'm unlikely to be able to merge everything by tomorrow, so I will consider tomorrow a submission deadline to me, rather than a merge deadline.
Quite frankly, I probably _would_ accept it, if it's cleanly done. If only because of the fact that it's such a ridiculous thing to do, and thus gets high points on my "surreality meter".
Interesting idea. However you are working on what's effectively a dead codebase.
The difference being its "do I send you a vi macro or an Emacs macro", and the obvious answer in this case being that if someone wants go write both then we all win.
Yeah, use kguiconfig for alternatives on debian and let everyone just directly call $RANDOMONFIGPROGGI :)
Strange thing happened: My machine appeared to lock up. I tried to switch consoles, and nothing happened.... Up to now. Now I see consoles redrawing on vesab, at speed around 5 characters per second. [Yes, I can see letters being erased]. That's little slow for 300MHz celeron... I hope.
* Manoj adds Joey to the list of people he is afraid of disagreeing with in public
<stockholm> Manoj: Joey is one of the persons whose online
personality does not match the physical appearance.
<Manoj> Is he even more scary in person?
I've found that many developers don't seem to share enough of the context and unspoken rules. I think writing them down will help.
You keep saying it's *you* working on it. If it's for Debian at large, then we *all* should work on it.
<weasel> Learn about a new Debian package every day. <weasel> A series brought to you by your friendly Debian Security Team.
The phrase Ian used was "DRAFT joint message", implying that it was a "draft of a (joint message)" open for review. Your phrase is the opposite, implying that it's a "jointly written (draft message)", which it isn't.
So your implication is that merely by transposing the words joint and draft the message gains legitimacy? And _you_ have the gall to call _me_ an idiot? Jesus.
The traditional UNIX approach is to declare the universe UTF-8.
Without this option you will not be able to use module parameters on modules which have not been converted to the new module parameter system yet.
<stockholm> Who is in the debian-old-boys-network? <wiggy> There is no network! <wiggy> And I did not say that!
Branden and Manoj can complain until they're blue in the face that obviously I'm being arrogant and cabalish and what have you by disagreeing with them on some points, and declining to change my working draft (and even, in Branden's case, declining to deal with any more of his dysfunctional flameage).
Shock horror, I even admit to being swayed by private email!
Don't get me wrong. I want a generic device model. But I think it's clear the current one has failed to show anything more than eye candy.
<wiggy> JHM obviously isn't keeping track of things <JHM> wiggy is obviously being his usual smartass self again.
It is worth noting that DEC was a US corporation, and remains US-owned. I also note from Kevin's site that he lives in the USA. Finally, Debian's main sites are located in the USA. The Database Directive of the EU, therefore, does not have the impact that, for example, the USA crypto laws have.
Seriously, you can philosophise all you want, but that's not going to change anything.
I'd like to tack a rider onto the "release every 6 months" General Resolution that fixes the value of pi at 3.14 please.
Get me a working installer in, say, three months, and I think we could manage that. Give me one within two months and I'd be about as willing to guarantee it as I'd be willing to guarantee anything.
Debian-insatller is completely independent and _people need to finish it instead of complaining about the release cycle_.
Yes, this is another problem. Debian policy, Debian legal, boot-floppies and whatever there is more on important decision making mailing lists are not transparent to the debian developer who cant follow all of them. Thanks to Joey this will not be the case anymore.
I would say that you just need to be more persuasive with Joey.
I don't usually get into flames, but I'm touchy when it comes to Linux.
Making software free, but only for folks with enough money to buy first class hardware is an interesting concept.
Of course 5 years from now that will be different, but 5 years from now everyone will be running free GNU on their 200 MIPS, 64M SPARCstation-5.
Linux is not being written as a teaching tool, or as an abstract exercise. It is being written to allow people to run GNU-type software today.
Thanks for the work andy, but Linux didn't deserve your answer. For the common people, it does many things better than Minix.
Of course, in basic Minix with no virtual consoles and no chance of running Emacs, this isn't much of a problem. But to most people that's a failure, not an advantage
For the true hacker, not having source code is fatal, but for people who just want a UNIX system, there are many alternatives (albeit not free).
Linux is only about 12000 lines of code I think. I don't see how splitting that into tasks and blasting messages around would improve it.
Minix doesn't count because it's not free.
There are two kinds of researchers: those that have implemented something and those that have not. The latter will tell you that there are 142 ways of doing things and that there isn't consensus on which is best. The former will simply tell you that 141 of them don't work."
MINIX costs $169, but the license allows making two backup copies, so the effective price can be under $60.
Suppose Fred van Kempen returns from the dead and wants to take over.
Will we soon see President Bush coming to Europe with Richard Stallman and Rick Rashid in tow, demanding that Europe import more American free software?
I think co-ordinating 1000 prima donnas living all over the world will be as easy as herding cats, but there is no legal problem.
If anybody has interesting hardware lying around, I'd be happy to accept it.
The Minix copyright, however, means that if someone feels he could make a better Minix, he either has to make patches (which aren't that great whatever you say about them) or start off from scratch (and be attacked because you have other ideals).
Well, there's GNU Emacs... Don't tell us people haven't got emotional attachment to editors.
As I said earlier, diffs are far too much hard work - particularly if they're full of stylistic and idiolectical changes which I disagree with. So, I'm not going to read your diff.
Perhaps we can manage to overflow this "grade" and get an A.
Jobs at Debian are *really* nice. I don't know of any other US company that allows its staff to take such long vacations.
panic("esp: what could it be... I wonder...");
if ( !shost )
panic ("Splunge!");
if(psr & PSR_PS)
panic("Tell me what a watchpoint trap is, and I'll then deal "
"with such a beast...");
if (!empty_zero_page)
panic("Oh boy, that early out of memory?");
panic("CPU too expensive - making holiday in the ANDES!");
if(i == 32) {
printk("starfire_translate: Are you kidding me?\n");
panic("Lucy in the sky....");
}
/* After several hours of tedious analysis, the following hash
* function won. Do not mess with it... -DaveM
*/
/*
* For moronic filesystems that do not allow holes in file.
* We may have to extend the file.
*/
if (inode->i_sb->u.isofs_sb.s_cruft != 'y' &&
(volume_seq_no != 0) && (volume_seq_no != 1)) {
printk(KERN_WARNING "Multi-volume CD somehow got mounted.\n");
/usr/src/linux/fs/isofs/inode.c
/* Fuck me gently with a chainsaw... */
/* Binary compatibility is good American knowhow fuckin' up. */
/* Am I fucking pedantic or what? */
/* vsprintf.c -- Lars Wirzenius & Linus Torvalds. */
/*
* Wirzenius wrote this portably, Torvalds fucked it up :-)
*/
printk("Penguin %d is stuck in the bottle.\n", i);
prom_printf("Detected PenguinPages, getting out of here.\n");
NAK NAK NAKing on Vixie's door.
Well we can all express our deep regret at the inability of the ironically named ISC to work with the internet and society in all the announces.
All hell will break loose if linux distros start releasing binary-only updates "in the name of security".
No way, man, I've gotta have my Netscape 4.77, complete with security holes and horrible CSS support!
ding ding ding ding ding! http://www.sun.com/
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world.
Welcome to the linux-kernel mailing list!
The fact that people are unable to raise their concerns on appropriate forums does inspire my confidence.
Unlike Progeny and Red Hat we can't simply change every package we distribute when we make a release, since it'd kill our mirrors.
I trust auric. But I don't trust that the DNS servers will give me the correct IP address for it. Hrm.
Filing a bug is probably not going to get it fixed any faster.
Yuk, another instance of the developers-reference trying create a lame-brained policy?
The Description field is not intended to be a random dumping-ground for any information that cannot fit into some other field.
Removing packages from the Debian archive doesn't remove them from people's systems.
Craig Sanders is a louse, and shall be crushed by a falling cow.
> ftp://ftp.suse.com/pub/suse/i386/8.1/COPYRIGHT.yast This license made me install Debian.
Thanks to a friend very familiar with Debian I have my first Debian server up and running on a Dual Processor IBM Netfinity Server. One word: ROCKS!
Has this thread reached the point where all participagtors have made up their minds and are going round and round in circles yet?
This patch pulls the broken IOC3 patches which somebody from SGI sneaked to Linus making the IO3 ethernet driver close to unusable...
Oops no, DSA-115 has not a link to that BID. Adding it... done.... no.. wait.. joey added it already! (Damn! He read this e-mail first... grrr :-)
I am incredulous that an update to PHP packages that I don't even have installed could fix my GNOME problems.
With the fire "about the largest stock of hardcore pornography, illegally downloaded CD's, movies and hacked / cracked software (applications and games) will also be turned into, er, 'digital ashes'.
lo0.ar5.enschede1.surf.net 3613: Nov 20 07:20:50.927 UTC: %ENV_MON-2-TEMP: Hotpoint temp sensor(slot 18) temperature has reached WARNING level at 61(C) [..] lo0.cr2.amsterdam2.surf.net 1146: Nov 20 07:20:56.458 UTC: %CLNS-5-ADJCHANGE: ISIS: Adjacency to ar5.enschede1 (POS2/0) Down, interface deleted(non-iih)
Apparently we have quite a resilient infrastructure, if a total server annihilation only takes us off-line for as long as it takes to restore from backups -- kudos to all the debian-admin team for that.
No, don't tell me how to fix it. Fix it yourself. Your honor will then be restored.
* Moral of the story: if you can't bitch about something that can be fixed, don't bitch at all.
<Overfiend> Joey: hah, I know you have a sense of humor <Overfiend> you just try to hide it <Overfiend> I know about http://www.infodrom.org/Infodrom/fortunes/
Btw, Perl 5.6.1-8 dies on HPPA, because it's over-optimized...
As from this moment - are you listening to me, Romana? Because if you're not listening, I can MAKE you listen. Because I can do anything. As from this moment there's no such thing as free will in the entire universe. There's only MY will because I POSSESS THE KEY TO TIME!
Good God, that clause is Byazantine.
I don't know what disturbs me more: that I actually did the search, or that it turned up a relevant result.
Running a public access terminal and expecting it to be secure frightens me.
Sending a CV to a free software project is not the best way to get started.
The number of morons using Debian has noticably decreased since Gentoo came on the scene; they now have something that will give them the stupid things they asked for, so they stop asking us for them.
Wasting our sponsors' resources requires evidence that it brings something valuable to our users.
I really don't like to wear my SPI Treasurer hat on this mailing list.
If you put it in the main web site, you get like a dozen translations basically for free.
Pointless, MIPS usually has something better than a PC BIOS.
After all, it's only money. It's not like it's ones and zeroes.
Fortunately, most of the Debian members are isolated physically from others.
Still there are people whose CapsLock key seems to be stuck and who seem to have unlimited creativity to find new personal insults for everone and their dog.
The cabal members are those who know the source code of the core software of Debian (dpkg, apt, libc, dak, debbugs, the voting machine, and so on).
It is like reading the Necronomicon --- it gives you an arcane power, but it is a hard experience, and you are risking your sanity.
Working code is a lethal weapon.
Working code is a lethal weapon. Fire it on debian-devel. Your code may fail to get into the next release, but at least you can win the flamewar.
I know I have a twisted mind.
* The 'Three IBM hard drives fail in two years. I'm sensing a pattern.' release.
There are still many critical, grave and serious bugs listed in BTS against glibc. Should we try to fix some of them?
For christ sake, somebody is on drugs here.
[ Hm, I guess you are not talking about yourself: from outside it looks like you are still doing more for Debian than I do for my day job ;-) ]
The needs of the greater public are to have a continual supply of television and porn, and to be told by people who sound authoritative that things outside their control are going well.
This analogy is poor, but you mismatched it anyway.
I am not at totally stupid person. I have written a 60k byte qbasic application program.
I just spent an hour at a meeting that doesn't exist and failed to adjourn it because it was a figment of Drew's cron's imagination.
Excuse the dodgy quality, I'm trying to construct a reply from DWN.
Linus - will you please stop merging plain dangerous "lets pretend we never have errors" patches.
<Joy> Joey: how come you did those CAN ID additions one by one? :) <Joy> sounds painful
Only stupid people think they should throw away old proven concepts.
Ever more technical and detailed voting schemes seem like a bad management hack to me.
Maybe we ought to recognize that the power is already in the hands of those who *do* things, and align our control structures accordingly.
One really important role Debian fulfills that makes it somewhat different from other open source projects is that of a place to ramp up and get involved, even if you're not an expert C hacker.
If Debian happens to need an supreme and feared emperor-for-life, I'd be happy to volunteer. I want minions as part of the deal, though.
This patch looks like someone had a lot of fun with a wchar test suite.
I don't think the Free Software Foundation feels that click-through acceptance ceremonies are compatible with the GPL.
The solution is not to use other packages, it is fixing the packages.
Hardly everybody has got a full Debian mirror in the same rack.
Debian wont package most of the non-free software.
Merely having bugs handled by the BTS is no assurance of quality.
There is elitism and there is elitism.
<vamp_work> some guy named Debian hacked my box and made it unstable <vamp_work> it tells me every time I log in
But it's becoming increasingly clear to me that the source should probably be sabotaged to not work without changes to stop people who don't know what they're doing using it to send people unsolicited and confusing mail.
<ifvoid> > Tags were: wontfix upstream <ifvoid> > Tags added: pending <ifvoid> lol <weasel> *g* <weasel> never give up hope :)
Wowbagger the Infinitely Prolonged, is that you ?!
I like Python and the Guido Python implementation because it lets me go from problem statement to solution quickly for a wide variety of problems... small and large.
Everybody talks about it, but nobody does anything about it!
Several packages use a braindead maintainer.
Since adding a check for braindead maintainers would be hard, you could instead detect if the manpage is such a template.
I use a distribution called Debian. What really sold me on it was its phenomenal bug database.
Why the hell is my PC almost twice as fast at running the same apps under Debian as it was under Red Hat 7.* or 8.0?
What happened to the KDE 2.2 'bugs' I was so used to in Red Hat?
<weasel> <164052-done@lists.debian.org>: User unknown * weasel kicks himself
Still can't talk about what I can't talk about. Sorry.
When it comes to computer security, the primary question is not whether enterprises should be paranoid, but how paranoid they should be.
Yes, EFN still has a Sun4 ;) We are convinced that the Sun4 box is our most stable and most secure Why? Because nobody has the exploits anymore =D
If nobody ships it setuid and the only one shipping it setuid has it fixed, I wonder what's about it.
*** THIS THING WILL CAUSE SOME GTK APPLICATIONS TO FREAK OUT *** *** THIS THING WILL CAUSE FONTS IN SOME GTK APPS TO BE UNREADABLE *** *** THIS THING MIGHT EVEN CRASH YOUR X SERVER IF IT GETS CONFUSED *** *** THIS THING WONT WORK WITH GTK 2.0 ***
It's quite the most foul thing I've seen in my life. It looks like it's composed entirely of bollocks.
The fact that buggy software breaks in different ways doesn't make gtk versions incompatible.
<Overfiend> StevenK: Colin and I make a good team. I still owe him a bouquet
<Overfiend> the sexy shock of red hair. The high forehead. The soft Irish
accent. The pasty white legs. /me swoons
<Overfiend> Kamion is just lucky Amaya was there at DebConf to absorb all of
my sexual lust ;-)
<Overfiend> er, well, there was also the wife
Well, let's just say, 'if your VCR is still blinking 12:00, you don't want Linux'.
We're not translating because of pointless statistics, but because of users.
This form of brinkmanship appears to be completly unique to Debian.
It seems to me obvious that a source package should contain source code.
I'm tempted to make the next dpkg release abort if people try that.
As for you leaving Debian... Why do people always bring that out? Jeeze.
Now, you're definetly on drugs here
Stating that you'll "leave Debian" isn't necessary, it only serves to provide fodder for a flamewar.
If I had a time machine, I might go back to the 1970's and tell the Unix creators to create $HOME/etc for each user, but by now it's too late.
I'm sure I can count on Joey to come up with a contrary opinion once everyone else has reached mutual agreement.
So not only is there no legal need to cite GNU in the Linux name, there is no ethical obligation either.
Evolution is a horror when it comes to pgp/gpg, face the fact.
Localized attribution lines might be nice but bear one problem: Not everyone understands them.
I know it will shock you, but you know that there is a world outside of Debian?
No, I think it should stay broken so that there's an actual chance that Joey notices he broke it.
You're just encouraging version number inflation. Is this a plan so we can catch up to other distributions?
It's helpful when posting benchmarks to give some indication of what the numbers represent.
It's no good having a policy forbidding abuse of the BTS if there are no penalties for infractions.
Some volunteers do more harm than good.
Eek! More unsubstantiated benchmarks!
Also, if you're going to reply to a bug with something like "This seems fixed, can I close it?" please make sure you remember to Cc the submitter. (This means you Goto :)
If I had to guess, I'd say that it ran out of memory. Libjava is stupidly large.
Apparently the hammer blows of senility have "falled" against the bit of my brain that understands verb forms.
We're always interested in hearing about cards that don't work.
I offer this as evidence that there is a God, and She is laughing at us.
Damn, I should really get around to implementing these.
* The 'Yes, I need more sleep, and also to test my releases' release.
It's only infinite if you're using non-integral numbers, which we are not.
An excellent example of not getting it.
At the moment Debian is almost hopeless because it is so outdated as a desktop OS.
Now not only are RPMs not compatible between distributions, they aren't even compatible between versions of distributions.
The KDE League has been an awesome failure from its mission statement.
Does anyone else find AA fonts annoying? I hate them, sure they "look" smoother, but I find that it just seems blurred and they are hard to read. Makes me feel something is wrong with my eyes. It hurts.
BTW, no offense to rap music. I just don't like it.
Amen, brother. I've never understood the obsession with AA fonts. They don't just seem blurry; they *are* blurry.
Subpixel antialiasing is wonderful.
I thought Michael Robertson had changed his ways when he started Lindows.
Sometimes reality interrupts the ideal world.
I'm sure there are a number of people who would appreciate it such a feature existed. Let us know when you've implemented it... 8^)
It will be my second time in Germany and the first time I managed to get lost twice on the motor way trying to find a city called "Ausfahrt" that was not signed on my map.
Explicit is better than implicit ... especially if you have a syntax-colouring text editor which highlights 'self' and 'this'.
They added object orientation to Perl?
I had a manager once who insisted that strict.pm [as in `use strict' from Perl] was useless 'because it breaks all my programs.'
Python is what BASIC should have been.
Too slow' is almost always defined incorrectly. ... Most developers are wrong about how fast things really need to run." Peter Hansen "It's almost impossible to get yourself in trouble using Queue." Tim Peters
The reality is, Perl forces the programmer to choose between laziness and carefulness.
For my New Year's Resolution, I vow always to close my files explicitly whenever I can, preferably with a tidy try/finally statement...
It rather distresses me that no one appears to have taken the trouble yet to index all the XML-Python resources in a convenient and unified way.
I was going to say this was going to be a slow week, but you folks surprised me. Happy holidays, everybody.
I think this Knuth guy might have been onto something.
Source code is a liability, not an asset.
I think the world would probably be a better place if everybody had a blow-up doll to talk to.
Writing your own Lisp Macro System is better than sex.
The reality is, Perl forces the programmer to choose between laziness and carefulness. In Python, you can (to a certain extent) be lazy and not careless.
Python is not a nanny.
Incidentally, do you believe you are the first person to think of this?
In my opinion nobody should use Tkinter without Pmw.
I like Python and the Guido Python implementation because it lets me go from problem statement to solution quickly for a wide variety of problems... small and large.
Start with a soft-realtime OS. After spending a few miserable weeks on it, you'll probably find that the apparent unfairness in your GUI app is a shallow problem after all <0.9 wink>.
You're on Windows, so the standard way to do things is to hack until you get the behaviour you want...
Incidentally, do you believe you are the first person to think of this? This question ('how can I obscure Python byte-code?') comes up at least once a month on this list. It's fairly clear that any scheme you come up with will take longer to implement than it will to break by a competent hacker. Anyway, good luck! If your software is any better than your protection scheme I'll download it from http://www.warez.com when you release it.
These days, I know that I blindly hit 'd' whenever I see '**ANYTHING IN CAPS**', since it tends to be related to some very interesting financial transaction involving some African country. So welcome to comp.lang.python, and I bet you a repost without the spam-triggering ALLCAPS will get you some good answers.
Python is not a nanny. It's a language for consenting adults.
No other language [than Python] is more successful in vanishing behind the problem.
This newsgroup is friendlier than most. We only require 5 hours of Googleing before you can ask a question!
Python resists making major library decisions preferring to leave it to the individual, while Perl's 'first-through-the-gate-naming' wins the standard.
PyChecker is at revision 0.8.11, but don't let that fool you, it is very usable and finds an amazing array of Python coding errors.
That was the original poster's point. When you start side scrolling it is time to refactor.
I find that I write Python in much the same physical style as I wrote in C so this has always been how I approached coding.
If Peter Piper pickles a peck of Python packages, can he pack the pickled Python peckers in a proper packing place?
Whell hell the language is named after the world's best comedy troup, what did you expect, green eggs and spam?
Will such suitably squashed SQLed strings satisfy?
The changes to Python are also so small now, that it doesn't matter if it will be merged or not.
I've had an interesting year - I've been coding in nothing but Python (Unix & Win32) and assembler (embedded PIC processors). Talk about a contrast! Yet in both cases, the languages 'Fit My Brain' for the tasks at hand.
I'm too new to Python to give you good technical reasons to use it, but I like it.
Lambdas sometimes eat small animals.
This is actually the first new program I've coded in C (rather than Python) in a good four years or so.
The canonical, "Python is a great first language", elicited, "Python is a great last language!
We C++ programmers have developed tricks to help us deal with this sort of thing, in much the same way that people who suffer severe childhood trauma develop psychological mechanisms to insulate themselves from those experiences.
A growing number of utilities is a sign that a format is popular, not that it is good.
If you have a question that contains the phrase 'can I count on the implementation optimizing ...' then the answer is almost certainly 'no'.
Lambdas sometimes eat small animals. This might seem horrible but it's actually very pythonic.
Python is not a nanny. It's a language for consenting adults. What you do with your classes is your business. If you use someone else's classes, it is your responsibility to consider the sanity of the source -- and to test.
Python is what BASIC should have been. Easy for beginners, powerful for advanced applications, able to seamlessly integrate with C, object-oriented. I love this language.
If I see one more msg containing 'Turing-complete' on this newgroup, I'm sorry, but the author dies.
If you don't have time to learn another language, then you will likely never realize any of the benefits that Python, and learning Python, might have to offer.
Doing nothing gracefully is important because there's sometimes nothing that needs be done.
It's easier to write appropriate code from scratch in Python than to figure out how to use a package profligate enough to contain canned solutions for all common and reasonable use cases.
I've learned from being in this business at least as long as many of you have, that when a project appears designed to fail, it probably was.
I did something in Java and PHP (finish and working) and now I rewrite it in Python. Ask me if you want to know more about it, it's in early stage, but very promising when I compare it to what I did in Java.
Wise artisans learn a tool's strengths and use those strengths rather than fighting against the tool. Your 'design philosophy', actively _hiding_ information, may be OK with other languages, but it's definitely not the most productive way to use Python. -- Alex Martelli
XML combines all the inefficiency of text-based formats with most of the unreadability of binary formats.
I've seen no reason to suspect that code, concepts, data structures, interfaces, programmers or managers have an advantage over rats in this respect.
Helping others is the best repayment one could give.
So not only is the language incredibly expressive, clear, and pragmatic, but it provides tools for exploration that make it easy to focus on what works. Those tools allow you to expand your working subset of the language slowly over time as needed.
Object-oriented programming is an exceptionally bad idea which could only have originated in California.
More details on what you want will naturally increase the quality of the answers you receive.
What RedHat admin tool uses rand?!?!?!? And doesn't that explain a lot...
You have chosen to install a new printer. You roll a 1d20... You get a 1. CRITICAL FAILURE Your home directory is now being deleted.
We have about five people who process auto builder logs. We have some thousand odd people who upload packages.
You really can't change anything without breaking something for someone.
Later I will show a way to declare the types strongly and statically enough to satisfy the most ardent Java or C# masochist.
BTW, this is one thing I love about the Python community. Ask a stupid question and you get good and helpful answers.
Comparing Python with Perl, generally I find Python better designed but its implementation more likely to take short cuts.
Heh -- I take it you haven't looked much at either implementation.
Is this one of those deals where you tickle a file with that 'mouse' thing, and then a dialog box from an irrelevant program pops up and steals the focus before you can finish what you started? I love stuff like that.
Sorry, but I got confused with Marburg and Magdeburg, I won't have time to travel to the ... well ... whichever of those two is farer away.
The evidence is now overwhelming that Linux, once a symbol of software's counterculture, has become a mainstream technology.
We all agree on the necessity of compromise. We just can't agree on when it's necessary to compromise.
The distinctive difference between PCs and other consumer electronics is that only PCs are allowed to fail in routine use.
We have about five people who process auto builder logs; we have some thousand odd people who upload packages. It's more efficient for the latter group to be the one to notice problems wherever possible.
Gobbles must have been so busy coding a "robust exploit" for our software that they forgot the URL of our site: http://www.mplayerhq.hu
Red Hat seemingly has no new products to announce at this time; instead, the company has put out a press release on what a good year 2002 was.
<Oskuro> 67 D Jan 23 Lonely women ( 33) Im alone, take me now <Oskuro> Ooohoooh! What a LUCKY DAY!
<Kamion> aagh, I have no brain. * Kamion uploads again, signed this time dammit - #debian-devel
<Robot101> let me clarify <Robot101> FUCK! FUCK! FUCK! FUCK!
<cmos> because slackware attracts dickheads like RH5 attracts idiots <fretless> like debian attracts egomaniacs
Among major Linux distributions, Debian is the closest to a pure expression of the ideals and processes that make Linux special.
The exciting thing to me, actually, is that there are so many ways in which Debian can be made even better. That makes Debian's future very bright, indeed!"
* tbm adds weasel to his mutt aliases so he can bother him more easily * weasel adds tbm to his procmail <tbm> hey, that's a honor; only kamion and mhp are there <weasel> well, the real honor would be a weasel-hook * weasel has a joey-hook in his muttrc <tbm> only my ex-gf had a send-hook
The aspell maintainer has made transition as painful as possible.
There is no logical reason why the rest of the non MS-SQL using world being affected by an MS-SQL bug (and an inadequecy on the part of MS-SQL admins) should be a good thing.
<Christian> bignachos: the famous pornview maintainer? <HoserHead> Christian: *don't* ask why he's typing so slowly <bignachos> hey, at least I thoroughly test my packages
I do run IPv6 -- I get to my 32-bit box with SSH over IPv6 just to make sure I'll find more bugs
If he gets overloaded, he just drops packets.
Thanks for playing law professor to my ignorant student.
<Sir_Ahzz_> Did I mention I found a good php programmer to hire finaly? <eigood> There's no such thing.
I offered to take it back at one point in time but the new maintainer said he was having "too much fun" with it. :) I never thought of maintaining qt as fun but hey, whatever floats your boat.
Pluri-modal media? Holy buzzword.
WINE is not an emulator, as the name says, it's an implementation of the Win32 platform.
Have you ever noticed that "General Public Licence" contains the word "Pub"?
> IT?????????? I'm an it? > mhp: *peng* <mhp> Joey: you are not, your dead body is <azeem> Joey: well, your fault when you let yourself look like a robot working 24/7
Or has the holiday shifted again while I wasn't looking?
As far as glibc's concerned, it's being kept out of testing until it's working reasonably, which could be decades away, the way things are going.
Guess this machine would make a nice mips autobuilder (32 R10k CPUs): http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3400173220&category=8074 Unfortunately I'm a bit low on cash at the moment but one can get it for just 55000 Euro (the hinv output is only 19 pages long). It's IP27 for which we have support in the kernel.
The sheer number should have been an indication that you should not do it.
I'm enjoying seeing python come out above perl and javascript.
It is a cardinal sin of GUI scalability to incorporate the state and services of the software wholly in the user interface. You will go mad from it eventually.
I'm deadly serious about the chicken. It's my business chicken.
<Overfiend> The time always sucks for someone <Overfiend> Hazards of a global organization
He set the bar so low only an earthworm could limbo under it.
Anthony Towns knows of an instance where I changed my mind and ended up agreeing with him.
ARC dates back more than 10 years back. It was written with PC partitions and NT as OS in mind. So don't expect fancy concepts or sanity.
<tbm> elmo: -fg green? <mdz> green on black...you really are old
A leader should have a vision, and inspire a sense of direction.
Geeks are geeks regardless of gender.
No, I'm saying that cluttering the BTS with hundreds of critical and grave bugs that the maintainer can do nothing about is not a useful thing to do.
Anyone wanting to fix the problem just has to ask. It's not complicated.
I keep track of this information so that it can be reviewed before a release to prevent undoing security fixes to stable.
I'm sorry if you've somehow gotten the impression that the testing scripts are a magic silver bullet that'll make it possible to have excellent reliable software just appear without any effort.
Before doing so and giving up any hope that I can't educate a 16 year old non-programmer to work with a programmer, I can only turn to debian-devel to ask around if anyone can teach a new maintainer to listen what seems to be optimal to make his package perfect.
I really reqret giving up this package.
Heh, so Jordi never maintained micq [1], Sander is the worst maintainer in the world and BenC and DanielS suck too. We're surrounded by incompetents!
You can state your case but you are the only person who does NOT have a vote on this.
<Oskuro> woo, I suck <Oskuro> more StevenK
Oh no, the duly elected DPL made a simple, straightforward decision. It must be an evil plot!
So kommt es vielleicht, dass die Kamera nicht zur Killer-Application wird, sondern zum Application-Killer.
Hint: some people use the ":P" smiley when they're joking.
Debian is also very user-oriented. It's just that Debian's users tend to have different needs than Mandrake's.
The definition of irony? Setting one's xscreensaver to BSOD, and then hours later the Linux box has a kernel panic...
A guy I used to work with at a Major insurance company in Denver Colorado saw the BSOD one day. From about 30 feet away he stopped, looked at it and then me. "You know, I thought you were running windows for a second but then realized the font was wrong..." He was very serious.
I am French but nice.
I thought that r10k I2 was IP28 not IP22, but I can be wrong as I don't speak SGI code names natively.
Since the BTS is already used for release coordination, it seems natural to me to have known security issues recorded in the BTS
I'd hope maintainers have a bit more brain than that...
Redhat has a limited resource of developers themselves, they cannot offer the same amount of packages like Debian do.
First there are no volunteers, now there are too many.
The BTS is simply not designed for the purpose of keeping track of bugs accross distributions. If you want that you need to redesign the BTS first.
Sticking data into a database is easy, and a solved problem. The hard part is designing the schema by which data is stored in the database, and coming up with efficient mechanisms for accessing that data.
I'm cramped for time, so I'll stop there.
Hmm... I thought this bug was already fixed with recent libtool.
Boy, you guys cause a lot of traffic over procedural points. Get a life!
Forking and threading mix like bananas and motor oil under the best of conditions.
In this case the BDFL asked the committee to up or down vote the color red.
If I had a life, I wouldn't be on the Internet... Please, Mr. Python -- don't take my Innurnet away!
I haven't been rude by Debian standards. In fact I question whether I've been rude by any reasonable standard.
Any administrator that su's to untrusted user accounts as root is pretty deserving of getting hacked.
As maintainer of the package, you don't have to give any reasons for requesting its removal.
Er, well, I myself do in fact read every line of diff that gets applied to my XFree86 packages. That includes the diff between entire versions when upstream does a release. It's a good way to learn about how your package works. Of course, I also do it because I am pathologically paranoid.
Bang! He puts a poison pill in the package, cleverly hidden and designed to pass the maintainer checks, and tries to bring in angry users to pressure Debian.
I am silly? You want to ignore a denial of service poison pill, and you think I am being silly?
Are we out to send the message that the Debian project feels denial of service poison pills are funny?
We'll hit our users with a denial of service attack in a pissing contest and we'll then just kiss and make up?
This is our project and we can do whatever we want with it.
You clearly do not understand, for example, the U.S. "justice" system.
We have to yank the package until we know there are no other such cool hacks waiting to hit our users again.
Removing the current package does not equate to a permenant ban.
We are discussing an issue important to Debian security, and what users may expect from the project, and how to handle an incident. If you do not care to participate in discussions relevant to development of the distrivution, please unsubscribe now.
He acted childishly and irresponsibly. He has not indicated that the code that he writes should be trusted by the Debian project. That is all.
Having a non-working Package or no Package at all is a Status Quo to me.
We don't have a moral obligation to package everything.
Stealing a candy is one thing, putting poison in the candy box is another (much more serious IMHO) thing.
Note that malware that has delayed activation can easily pass through all the tests we have -- unstable, testing, RC bugs, autobuilding, etc.
If you're referring to what I think you are, it was buried in a flamewar.
I think the proper analogy would be "This man spraypainted 'Debian sux0rz' all over our front yard; maybe we shouldn't invite him to our next party."
Russell Coker: How old is Rüdiger anyway? Bernhard Link: Old enough that he is unlikely to change.
Good God!! You find people making software unusable to Debian users a ``tasty cookie''?
Rüdiger does NOT have a right to see his program in Debian -- no one has that right.
I'm still not seeing any real reason why we can't ask the maintainer to look through the upstream changes.
Rüdiger effectively showed that an upstream author can sneak code past the Debian maintainer.
It also shows, that Mr. Kuhlmann cannot behave in a professional way.
After viewing the "evidence". it seems to me that both Madkiss and Kuhlmann are morons.
If upstream is intentionally malicious to Debian users, and we know so, it would be irresponsible subject our users to their code.
This is under no circumstances acceptable behaviour from upstream. Drop mICQ from Debian.
Nothing is wrong with upstream not being happy with the maintainer. *Everything* is wrong with a sneaky action like this.
The upstream does not want their software to work optimally in Debian, if they did then they would not trojan it.
Some guy reformats my hard drive, he must have issues with me, let us examine his feelings.
We certainly shouldn't encourage upstream developers to annoy our users because of issues they have with the maintainer.
Putting a trojan horse in your program is not the appropriate solution.
I can't believe people are defending the act of slipping obfuscated code into a program designed to not be seen by the maintainer and to make Debian look stupid.
There was an occasion where a shareware author wanted his program to delete itself, but it had a bug and deleted entire systems.
Agreed. And this is our project and we can do whatever we want with it. If there's a person who does irresponsible things to a particular piece of software we can decide that person's software shouldn't be included in our project. See, everyone is acting within his rights, so I guess there's nothing to dispute.
Who cares about the author? I say that you should keep packaging it just to piss off him.
Crap. I am starting to sound like a U.N. representative. Phooey.
Because upstream kinda burned his bridges when he hit our users with a denial of service poison pill?
Most of us here have enough neurons firing to realize that people cannot be uploaded to the archive.
I don't agree with you. A Debian package is a Debian package.
Hint: humour is meant to be funny. When it makes only you laugh, you should consider writing those emails to yourself instead of wasting other people's bandwidth.
Anyone who uses such a tone with me in private mail has abdicated his right to keep me from letting the world know that he's an asshole.
Mike, when did it become appropriate for someone who does absolutely no work on a subproject to start speaking on behalf of it?
You have a fantasy idea of testing.
Hint: humour is meant to be funny.
For the record, I *did* find it somewhat funny.
Just because an upstream has allowed anyone to package his software (that's the requirement, not that Debian be allowed to package his software) doesn't mean that it has to be in Debian. That's a privilege, not a right.
Upstream authors deserve respect for coding Free Software.
The Internet had its first big worm epidemic since Nimda: the Sapphire Worm, aka SQL Slammer. Normally, I wouldn't bother mentioning this worm. It's news, but there are no real lessons to learn from the event. But there's an interesting Microsoft twist. During the days of the attack, Microsoft tried to deflect any blame by claiming that they issued a patch for the vulnerability six months previously, and that the only affected companies were the ones who didn't keep their patches up to date. A couple of days later, news leaked that Microsoft's own network was hit pretty badly by the worm because they didn't patch their own network.
Seems that it is official Microsoft corporate policy not to be seen in public with Bruce Schneier.
Seriously, we've got a nominal "leader", but that's mostly irrelevent to most of us. The leader is there to resolve disputes that need an arbitrary resolution, and to play "figurehead" in public.
If your internet connection is such a rip-off, why are you running a full mirror? Don't complain to us about it when the archive is too big for you.
How can I as user trust the Debian Project if it tells the Upstream guilty but does not solve the issue in its own Package-Pool?
We have no proof that this imaginary "Debian Project" of yours has been willfully distributing software that prevents users from using it.
Some shops use instant messaging for real work.
<srbaker> frozen-bubble slow as fuck <srbaker> who's fuckign idea was it to write a game in perl?
The OpenSSH maintainers knowingly deceived the Security Team and forced them to install an update for potato which introduced a security defect.
Maintaining a good relationship with upstream is a sizable chunk of doing a good job maintaining a package.
Debian is hurting itself by some of its members not being able to take back their egos, taking out their emotions of the discussion and keeping the discussion cool only related to facts.
Yeah. If I got a popup "Hi! I've just trojaned this binary, but you can get one from me that is *really* fine here!", I would of course immediately download and install it. Great solution.
Writing/maintaining software is providing a service (even when it's free). You need to listen to your customers if you want to learn what features they need and thereby improve your product. Of course, the customer isn't _always_ right, and often they suggest specific implementations which don't fit into the "grand scheme", but it's the input of ideas which is important. Even if they seem at first to be "wrong", I've found it's always worth thinking about them, even if you ultimate modify or reject them. This is all IMHO, of course.
Mike, over the past few months you've been taking every opportunity to deride testing whether in concept or implementation.
WML Not just a swiss army knife of web page making, but a whole damn box of them.
Since when has The Register ever let facts stand in the way?
No matter what your Debian feelings and experiences are like, there is no doubt that the Debian project has made an enormous impact on the history of modern software development.
<Bluehorn> Robot101: Actually I lost a few source packages. <Bluehorn> Robot101: Had to re-download them from a Debian mirror. <Robot101> real men don't need backups =) * Bluehorn packages bluehorn-university-stuff and uploads ;)
While most reviews tend to focus on the installation and initial impressions of various distributions, I thought it might be of interest for readers to hear about the past couple of months dabbling in the meta-distribution known as Debian.
All software is broken just to a different degree.
Debian has to do peer-review of the code that distributes.
Trusting Free Software in the first place, only because it is free is not very clever, either.
Unfortunately, insisting that we're virgins is impossible given the number of bastard children at our feet.
Debian-installer is still able to install Debian, so that hasn't changed.
hacker - someone who does smart things with dumb electronics.
I sighed, because you made a first-time-experience to a the-city-in-which-you-live-is far-behind-experience.
OO is deliberatly non-trivial because otherwise programmers will be jobless.
The problem is that, now that I know Python, I have lost any motivation to learn C++ anymore...
Let's remove his account! We demand hourly status reports!
Debian is a bit like BGP (or even IP networking).
Currently, I can only recommend Debian privately because the baptism of fire is still to happen.
Debian is a bit like BGP (or even IP networking). By using it, you trust much more people you would like to, but nevertheless you rely on it for critical business operations.
One can no more command the developers than command the tides.
<Oskuro> ffs <Oskuro> this guy is touching my balls again <thom> he's doing *WHAT*?
What is your point exactly? That people use testing to get newer packages, so we should force newer packages into testing despite its purpose?
Releasing with packages out of sync across architectures is insane.
Debian is a night club, filled with beautiful people.
Debian is a free distribution which is mostly written for free. If people want to write something for free then it'll get done. If people don't then it won't.
Debian is the Jedi operating system: "Always two there are, a master and an apprentice".
I'm too sexy for my OS.
It's worse to have a DDP area which is mostly a graveyard of dead manuals.
Security on Linux and Unix is a joke. It makes Windows look like Fort Knox in comparison!
IBM security used to be pretty good until AIX came along.
In any event, not fixing security problems for testing is a bug, not a feature, and not one that we want to further entrench.
[I tried Python] And my problems dissapeared! It was like hosing ice with hot water
We did requirements and task analysis, iterative design, and user testing. You'd almost think programming languages were an interface between people and computers.
Annual releases are an optimistic but probably achievable goal at this point.
In the Microsoft world, file dependencies are referred to as "DLL Hell",
I worked through previous metamail bugs and I can suggest no other alternative but elimination.
Replying at the top, thats a cardinal sin.
php4 is already broken; so it doesn't show up as breaking.
Trusting a VeriSign company is like considering drug smuggling a solid business.
Unfounded accusations will be met with silence.
Different people have different ways to use email. Get used to it.
I don't think we have the bandwidth to deal with the ensuing flame-war on parisc-linux.
After reading the documentation a few months ago, Paul and I decided that HEAD was the work of the devil.
Simple signature matching is ancient technology--that's the problem.
<ifvoid_> we could set up the bts on ramdisk ;) <eigood> for what gain? <weasel> we would be BugFree[TM] regularily
Software evolves. It isn't designed. The only question is how strictly you _control_ the evolution, and how open you are to external sources of mutations. And too much control of the evolution will kill you. Inevitably, and without fail. Always. In biology, and in software.
*** Topic for #debian-devel: You know the world is going crazy when the
best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy, France
is accusing the US of arrogance and Germany doesn't want to go to war.
Is this a bug introduced by the security update, or did the security update disable this misfeature because it is a gaping security hole? I think the latter.
Can you imagine anything more fustrating than trying to read this list from a Hotmail account?
Just because a thing can be done does not necessarily mean it should be done.
Doubting anyone on that level just because they disagree with you is the basis for some tyranical governments.
Unix is defined by whatever is running on Dennis Ritchie's machine.
I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time.
Linux is, and more than likely always will be, a hacker's operating system.
When you type to Unix, a gnome deep in the system is gathering your characters and saving them in a secret place.
Do you pine for the nice days of Minix 1.1, when men were men and wrote their own device drivers? Are you without a nice project and just dying to cut your teeth on an OS you can try to modify for your needs? Are you finding frustrations when everything works on Minix? No more all-nighters to get a nifty program working? Then this post might be just for you.
Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window.
If a computer can't directly address all the RAM you can use, it's just a toy.
The most brilliant decision in all Unix was the choice of a single character for the newline sequence.
VMS is a text-only adventure game. If you win you can use Unix.
Chief weapons of Unix: Fear, surprise and ruthless efficiency.
From an operating system research point of view, Unix is, if not dead, certainly old stuff, and it's clear that people should be looking beyond it.
MS-DOS is a Neanderthal operating system.
MS-DOS is not dead, it just smells like it.
MS-DOS was created to keep idiots away from Unix.
It's a very conservative, hostile culture.
By IBM supporting Linux well then it is not a toy.
I would take a lot of correction mails as a sign that in general you're doing a great job.
I have to compensate for my massive penis with a tiny laptop.
No, I'm not going to explain it. If you can't figure it out, you didn't want to know anyway...
Adding reopening of archived bugs is really rather trival. So trivial that no one has done it.
Anyone can close bugs, but not anyone may close bugs.
And people promote UTC over GMT out of arrogance *and* ignorance. Screw that.
Have fun, and be careful, you've been warned.
<Alfie> Shall I try to get my hands layed on an IE, too?
Just to make sure the problem isn't on my part?
<azeem> wow, using IE to confirm a bug
<azeem> Alfie is desperate :)
But I think if we just include jokes in DWN we might perhaps create our own, shouldn't we?
The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong, it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair.
I just saw Hweng-Shei Teoh use "inasmuch". He is my no. 2 fancy-English role model from now on.
I knew Oskuro in real life too, so I'm used to perversion.
You sound terribly frustrated for someone who asked a simple, honest question.
If I have to explain the reason why this is funny, it means it wouldn't have been funny anyway, so there's no point.
I'm getting tired of maintaining three branches of code.
If you don't have a clue about encryption then why don't you read about it?
GPL with no source means non-distributable.
Screw portability, I'll take anything that works with PostgreSQL
People found GNU/Linux to be a fine replacement for Unix six years ago, even somewhat longer. It was reliable. It was solid. It compiled better code.
These guys are gobbling up (Linux servers) like there is no tomorrow.
I'd bet on Opteron before I'd bet on Itanium.
I'm reluctant to try to get an ugly patch integrated that's been used on perhaps one single TopCat card a few years ago.
At this point, you have a variable named {-1} with the value 21. When passing variables by reference, and then using upvar, you need to pass the *name* of the variable, not its value.
Very few bytecodes have an opcode for 'increment-hash-entry-and-fire-attached-traces'.
Using green-screen techniques in the Tk console is, frankly, a little strange.
I can hardly imagine a better software development platform than Tcl/Tk on the Mac with OSX and Virtual PC. And Emacs.
I've been immersed in Javaland for so long that I'd forgotten the simple joys of writing in Tcl.
Tcl is utterly pervasive as the scripting front-end for all serious EDA tools.
This system is written almost entirely in Tcl/Tk (Terminal Control Language/Toolkit, pronounced "tickle-tee-kay")
Every expect 'problem' I have encountered has been mine. Buy the book by Libes and read it over and over.
That's not really the hard way. The procs are not that long, and just build on the core functionality that the text widget provides. At some level, the programmer has to make his living writing *something*.
Benchmarks are untrusthworthy in any case, unless you explicitly and expertly construct them for your use case.
There is no simple way you can stop those small bugs (i assume you mean things like missing {[]}"" , small typos in proc or var names, argument mismatches for procs and the like) from stopping your app. Those are small for your app, but major for the tcl core (unless you're talking about a Telepathic Computer Language), it simply cannot see what is wrong.
Yep. Isn't Tcl fun? :-) Just follow the rules on Tcl.n and it works.
Do you want to communicate with many sockets and serial ports? Standard Tcl has a way to do this that is BETTER than threading.
I can't completely argue with working software.
There's nothing wrong with Passport(TM)-type services *provided* that you don't use them for anything where you *need* security or privacy.
clt is just marvellous - if it didn't exist already, it needed to be invented.
There are *no* keywords, and *no* special parsing rules. At all. Ever.
One can never read too many manpages
I found Tcl to be simple to get into with the potential to meet complex needs as I grow with it. I have similar feelings towards the Tcl'ers Wiki since I've been nudged into contributing a little.
Everything's obvious and easy if you don't have to do it yourself.
Good luck and fun with TCL. Beware, it can grow on you.
The entire panedwindow widget test suite was written before a line of code on the panedwindow was done.
He's the best coder I've ever seen.
There's an excellent train connection to get from A to B. Do we need to build an airport and take the plane, because it has in-flight movies?
I've been playing with infinite lists in combinator algebra. Lazy evaluation is fun.
Everyone wants everything for free.
I've personally seen people won over to Tcl solutions who were completely agnostic about the use of Tcl -- it was Tcl's ability to produce something of unordinary complexity in such short time that was key.
* willy reports that the fsck on his laptop from unstable
wishes to fsck /dev/fd0 even when asked to fsck /dev/hda5
<willy> As you may be able to imagine, i'm not exactly in the best
possible situation to see if this bug has been reported
and/or resolved right now ...
<willy> well, you can always use the whiskey to clean your bathroom ... <Kamion> willy: eat shit. :)
I'm not sure I agree that Gentoo and Debian are competing projects, but you're right, we do share a common goal in relation to the Hurd.
Just don't email upstream if you're using modified source.
What good is pornview if it's not stripping?
Policy says that all binaries "should" be stripped. Indeed all binaries on my system are stripped except /usr/bin/pornview.
I suppose we now live in a universe where "bug that pisses me off" is grave.
<Kamion> infinity: I feel dirty any time I touch PHP. <infinity> How do you think I feel?
<infinity> I'd orphan it, but I use it, and I don't
want it even more poorly maintained than I do.
<wiggy> elmo: Isn't that the libtool approach? <elmo> wiggy: I don't know to be honest, I try to stay away from libtool
*** tbm (tbm@203.28.240.13) is now known as sleep *** sleep (tbm@203.28.240.13) is now known as tbm <Mithrandir> that was a short nap <tbm> blah, I obviously need sleep. ;) <tbm> I typed /nick instead of /away
People who don't use their real names are either too stupid or too embarrassed by what they are saying.
<Joy> debsign -give-it-up -for -kriss-kross@debian.org <Joy> debsign encourages retro rap, someone should file a bug.
Cut me some slack, i'm not an aboriginal English speaker.
People who don't use their real names are either too stupid or too embarrassed by what they are saying. Either way, reading the mail they send merely wastes valuable seconds.
If you only need something which quacks, don't worry about checking that it's also a duck.
Source code with decent unit and acceptance tests is an asset. Source code without decent tests is a liability.
So you're the first to try an ISA card on the I2. I must say I'm quite pleased it worked!
Joey is not programmed to handle complicated requests :/
<JHM> The sooner we can drop gal, the better IMHO. <Joy> i propose we rename libgal to libbitch
<mstone> .c++ is better, if still not as good as cc <willy> some filesystems don't like + in filenames <mstone> watch me care <mstone> those filesystems suck :)
<mstone> well, dos is dead, vms is dead, why bother? <willy> VMS is, alas, decidedly not dead <mstone> willy: since hp bought it, it is
That's so stupid a comment I have no effect response.
"Mozilla can't move from unstable to testing because the VAX port won't be finished compiling for 3 more weeks."
Those software _is_ "educational stuff for economic simulation"! Playing is the best way to learn.
You do not build a business by reading Sun Tsu's Art of War.
Perl is Internet Yiddish
<Alfie> Hey, cool! 36 RC-bugs fewer than last week. <Alfie> Still 707 to go, though.
Folks, if you don't stop abusing debconf with useless notes that belong in README.Debian and config file overwriting, I will stop maintaining it.
Unix is like a toll road on which you have to stop every 50 feet to pay another nickel. But hey! You only feel 5 cents poorer each time.
If any of this is questionable, then I suspect reiserfs tools isn't DFSG compliant and belongs in non-free with all it's flakiness.
Debconf is NOT a license to overwrite user's configurations!
Debconf is not a general purpose configuration tool. Debconf is only a standardized way of interacting with the user during package installation, for configuration values that cannot be reasonably defaulted.
I applaud this masterly demonstration of a nadir of cluelessness.
Just don't use the GPL for your software if you don't like it, but don't complain if anyone misunderstands your homemade license mishmash.
Nobody wants to replace Martin with Brandon. Who is this Brandon guy, anyway? This Robonson people seem to talk about?
Well, if we're having THAT kind of discussion, there's a couple of quotes which have been censored from the *CENSORED* report which prove that they have sucxiqz567$%& NO CARRIER
If it scratches your itch, fix it. And send patches.
Kernels, and the toolchain, are amoung the few things which can be cross-compiled fairly reliably - because you have to do that when bootstrapping a new architecture.
Is this a trend or something? Do you get 'cool points' for ignorantly slagging off m68k? *sigh*
Text is a way we cheat time.
"How many AOL users do you need to change a lightbulb? One. Me too. Send me a copy! Me either! ME TOO!!!!"
A group of Florida-based porn peddlers, penis enlargement and Viagra spammers has united to file suit against anti-spam organisations.
Please don't feed the troll. We already have a problem with the miasma of the bones beneath the bridge.
I agree. I am not trying to defend Hans's diplomatic skills.
I find it interesting that you consider a public accusation of plagiarism to be merely "expressing concern".
I apologise for accusing Manoj of having a prune up his rear. It's clear to me now that this was a disservice to prunes and in fact it's a thesaurus thats lodged there and is giving him delusions of having a large vocabulary.
At this point in the thread I am asking myself if you are presently trying to present a point.
You seem to have left your ideas a few branches back.
I was intentionally using moderate language because (a) I don't believe it is strictly plagiarism (as you say), and (b) because I don't think inflaming the debate by tossing around words like "plagiarism" (or "troll", "slander", etc) is very helpful. (Had I thought about it more, I would have realized the second one goes completely against the behaviour expected on -devel, which is apparently to be as personal and negative as possible.)
I think anyone throwing out unsubstantiatged accusation of plagiarism is indeed a troll.
I am not in the business of defending Hans's negotiating technique.
Hans Reiser is hurting his own reputation with infantile, irrational behavior like these accusations more than anyone could hurt him by trying to "plagiarise" or "bowdlerize" his work.
If you do not think your view point is biased, then I am sorry to say I am not wearing those blinkers.
"About" buttons are an abomination, like the term open source, they gutlessly pretend to be what they are not in an attempt to please by dissembling.
You seem to be implying that all forks of free software are immoral.
As far as I am concerned, I have no desire to have ReiserFS distributed for free by anyone who removes the GNU manifesto or similar expressions from Stallman's work (or my own) and redistributes it.
Nice try, but Hans is an ugly American, I'm afraid.
I've contributed code to several POP servers. Why can't we have a POP server put an email in every user's account with a list of everyone who contributed?
ReiserFS is a long way from being a technical necessity.
Exactly. Emacs is pure bloat, just like KDE.
I'm not sure about anything, as Hans hasn't clarified what he's complaining about.
Nice try, but Hans is an ugly American, I'm afraid. (Born and bred in California?) Went to grad school in Berkeley, but left because no one listened to his ideas...
If the upstream author is rude to me, he does not deserve any consideration from myself.
I'm with Ben. Hans was trolling and you're being a dick.
I would definitely consider an easter egg that disables the package to be "harmful".
I think it would be stretching the truth to say that Debian, as a project, has any "sense of free software in general" that could back such kind of official approval.
Oh, I think Anthony's just trying to make it clear that the fact that he and I agree about something is the purest accident, and must not be taken as inductive evidence that he and I have anything else at all in common. He's got his dignity to protect, you know. :)
There is no logic involved. Just US law.
This isn't an entirely silly idea. It sounds like a good excuse for a parseable copyright file.
A 386 with an ISA bus could not get full bandwidth out of 10baseT.
There is no such thing as a default screensaver except the console blanker.
The original "OS" for the IBM PC was DOS, and if you track the lineage, I think it's fair to call Windows the "native" OS for that architecture.
On a semi-unrelated note, did anybody ask flex-upstream what the *CENSORED* they were thinking?
Maybe Miquel is testing the packages *gasp* before uploading them.
<Beowulf> Debian mail is working properly, isn't it? * Beowulf has not received any Debian mail in more than 8 hours
The trouble with evangelizing Linux/OSS support is that support means different things to different people.
Giving appropriate sudo permission for pbuilder for DDs is almost equivalent to giving root permission to every DD.
Most people sleep on most days, occasionally missing one or two.
There is no real difference between Suse, RedHat, Debian, Mandrake, SCO (besides spiritual aspects). They all are very, very complicated to J. S.
There is no difference between a BMW and a Yugo to some one who can not drive either.
Please don't put down the social contract by invoking it randomly when you think others don't agree with you.
Umm, I generally check to see if my name is no the list, using string search mechanisms of my MUA. Doesn't your MUA allow you to search for strings in the mail received?
I have a number of Infomagic CD sets here, and all of them have their Debian distribution botched. Every time in a new and different way, too. It was amazing. The 1.0 thing was just a particularly vigorous occasion.
Debian is based on technical stuff not on a feeling for acceptance.
Your question made me want to see the bug to get some context.
buildd/sbuild are an unmaintainable mess in their current form, and I feel that a rewrite from scratch, using the current code as a model, is needed.
Not always is the loudest voice truly the vote of the majority.
Cutting out all of the Invariant Sections is modification of the Invariant Sections? This sounds a bit like John Cage's copyrighted silence.
If you're going to get rid of 386 or m68k on the basis that they're too old/out-of-date/unsupported then you _have_ to look at hurd-i386 first, because it's worse than all others in all those aspects.
He [rms] asked me what I was doing and I talked about KVim. He said something like: "I can't tell if I am more sorry for vim or for KDE".
Wow, Marcus /joined jetzt schon Mittags #hurd. Es geht wieder aufwärts.
<fabbione> who is the main responsable for DDTP? <fabbione> grisu? <broonie> yes <StevenK> fabbione: He Who Can Not Be Understood
I don't want to have to add artificial intelligence to Exim to try to sort out this kind of problem.
If Linux were hijacked - if someone attempted to make and distribute a proprietary version - the appeal of Linux, which is essentially the open-source development model, would be lost for that proprietary version.
We already have a soapbox -- debian-announce@lists.debian.org and www.debian.org. We don't need to tie our opinions to technical documentation to have them heard.
This thread is getting weirder and weirder...
It does not help to describe in detail what you hope that someone else will do.
I am only good at complaining.
The list system is designed by the Cabal, it doesn't tell anyone anything.
We need a bug system for developers' brains.
Maybe it was actually only filed in my brain (which has no web interface)...
It's mostly feeding disks occasionally. That's what Jr. sysadmins are for.
<tbm> weasel: you wil die!!!!!1 <weasel> tbm: what did you do this time that you're going to blame on me <tbm> weasel: you polluted my gpg key sign coord page code with tabs!
It might be more interesting to look for stolen Linux code in Unixware, I'd suggest with the support for a very well known Linux fileystem in the Linux compat addon product for UnixWare.
Accept reality, you are the Linus of parisc Linux, like it or not.
Be grateful that you have more control over your government than I have over mine. My government obeys yours.
The status quo usually sucks, but that doesn't mean we have to destroy the village to save it.
I hate complicated examples.
The sheer existence of PHP is insulting to the mind.
Prior to IBM's involvement, Linux was the software equivalent of a bicycle. UNIX was the software equivalent of a luxury car.
<fabbione> just to laugh we should add a new queue to the NM process..
<fabbione> the time that Joey takes to sign a key
against the time elmo takes to make a new DD
<fabbione> they start to compete :-)
<algernon> why do people like lesbians? <Joy> two words: four breasts <algernon> bi girls are sooooooo much better...
This is terrible! Wait, I forgot, these numbers mean absolutely nothing.
A maintainer who only has time for one package should maintain one package, and do a decent job of it, rather than overextend himself.
[In 1993,] it was hard to regard Python as a general-purpose language. Ten years later, we can argue that Python is more general-purpose than C! -- Cameron Laird
It [neurotic reductionism] tries to make us efficient, even at the cost of clarity and maintainability. In that way lies bit-twiddling and assembler language and soldering irons. We must be diligent in our fight against it.
Are you always like this, or am I on your shit list already?
We knew that SCO's attack on Linux was a lie. But we never dreamed of the big lie behind it.
I think, there is only one thing, which is more foolish, than making a foolish law: Follow this foolish law.
Well, no, but cut me some slack; I was railing against stupidity.
An invariant section is invariant, and it is not free (even according to your own definition), whether it is secondary or not.
I refuse to start adding X-Joke headers to point out the obvious.
Quite frankly, I found it mostly interesting in a `Jerry Springer' kind of way. White trash battling it out in public, throwing chairs at each other. SCO crying about IBM's other women...
<Overfiend> Sorry guys, a man has to visit the bathroom every once in a while. <BrucePerens> Being on the board means some things have to take priority :-)
Why don't you put your Gigantic Flaming Dick away and use your brain for a change.
I think Jamie was trying to say that Branden *is* a Gigantic Flaming Dick, not that he *has* a Gigantic Flaming Dick.
Thomas, I hereby suspend your GFDL for one year since you obviously don't know how to use it properly.
You need a license for a Gigantic Flaming Dick?
Careful there. The GFDL has apparently failed the DFSG test and anyone possessing such a license will be moved into non-free.
In other words, turn the other cheek and let the quality of the distribution go to the dogs?
I have spent too much time working for this project to calmly sit idly by, playing my lyre, while Debian burns in the background.
Reader beware, the following four regular expressions are not for the faint of heart. It'll suffice to say that they accomplish their intended job 98% of the time.
One of the difficulties of writing about technology is exploring the dark corners where no one's ever been before.
You need it written in the Policy manual to use a 16-bit charset?
Common sense already dictates that untagged, non-ASCII characters should not be used in documents that must be parsed in a multilingual environment (e.g., the planet Earth).
I really appreciate that s390 likes to build minicom, but don't you think that three copies are enough?
This is a cabot. Its main feature is lack of documentation.
> Did someone remove vsftpd on master? Better question: is James a fucking moron? Answer: yes.
<Oskuro> lol <Oskuro> Someone from my university filed a bug report on ALSA <Oskuro> from Physics, too <dopey> that makes it easier to hunt them down <Oskuro> yes <Oskuro> On monday I will make sure he never submits another one.
Nice to know that seasoned DDs like you are still (at least partially) human and ask FAQs. ;-)
Which I do not care about. (Or is Solaris 9 now a released Debian architecture?)
Ah, I see. You have absolutely no control over your reactions to mails, so it is not sensible to expect you to react responsibly.
Given your track record, responsible behaviour from you is likely to be never to post on a Debian mailing list. Ever.
Please stop acting like a spoiled brat, or go away.
Are you proposing that we reject free services?
The 127th Ferengi rule of acquisition: Even if you got it for free, you paid too much.
That's the second time I hear talking about this feature, which is supposed to be great, so it starts to intrigue me.
In normal circumstances (user following readily available documentation), there's no way for gnu/linux software to fail so troubleshooting guides are not really neccessary.
For those incapable of using their threaded email client (aka Wookey), I've started a new thread.
I'll be in sacramento with 10,000 of my closest friends.
Actually I think you're already being far more than ridiculous.
I just wanted to say
____ _
/\ / __ \ | |
/ \ | | | | | |
/ /\ \ | | | | | |
/ ____ \ | |__| | | |____
/_/ \_\ \____/ |______|
He's probably talking about a Mmrnmhrm ship in uqm. They're the big crystal guys. I'm not sure where the pengiun comes in.
It's probably Welsh. No, wait, there's a vowel.
Another language that goes mad with vowels is Finnish - on which Tolkien's other Elvish language Quenya is based. Presumably it is this language on which the Elves have standardised for documenting their Linux systems.
<tbm> hi Kamion <Kamion> tbm: hi. er. where are you? <tbm> Kamion: sitting in your living room ;-)
And because my computer and me are both brief in this world, both foolish, and we have earthly fates, We fill up our baskets, get back home, Feel rich, relax, I throw it a scrap and it hums.
Oh man, I am the biggest disorganised fool ever.
I prefer a non-smoking car w/o aircon before a aircon'ed car with smokers.
If you want something to bitch at Wichert about, bring up the minutes.
gvim meets gtk2. It feels like a piece of my life is now complete. Wow.
Go and molest a goat.
Claiming Java is easier than C++ is like saying that K2 is shorter than Everest.
After driving ~1500km from Karlsruhe burning the fuse for the cigarette lighter through heavy abuse with laptops organisation was brilliant.
The only "problem" with Knoppix is that the CD-ROM is updated every few weeks and that there is no way to download just the changes -- the complete ISO image must be downloaded for each upgrade.
If you really want this to evolve into a pissing contest about who does a better job in maintaining packages please compare our package tracking pages before you begin.
Frankly, with this particular one, I entirely fail to see why you ignore several perfectly valid reasons laid out in the reasonably polite (if a bit dazzled) rejection notice and go off ranting instead.
Well, I find it impolite to say work that has been done by a volunteer is "silly". Actually, I find it discouraging to do any more future work for Debian
rsync uses too much resources (cpu and more relevant IO) on the server side and a widespread use of rsync for apt-get would choke the rsync mirrors and do more harm than good.
Is there a Debian patch that can be applied to hats, shirts, backpacks?
If you thought you needed to be an official maintainer to contribute to Debian in any meaningful way, I hope you will reconsider. That's simply not the case, and I can attest to it through personal experience.
Getting mplayer in to Debian is more a political problem than anything, as both groups have managed to totally alienate each other fairly recently.
Do you care to explain if you are so wiser than the rest of us?
Which part of "debian-curiosa" did you read as "debian-mailbombing-request"?
-- Anthony DeRobertis
This is Debconf! You will not be on vacation, we will work you to the bone!
At least something you can't say about Eray is that he's prone to insulting others in public mailing lists.
Well, German is European the same way that Linux is Unix.
This sounds stupid but I'm sure a friendly company has patented it already...
So let me swear about mgp, and let the others play with their mouse ;)
If you have an itch not being scratched, you can scratch it, or pay someone to scratch it for you.
Yes, a photo and a string of hexadecimal characters is an excellent indicator of social abilities!
Barfing is worse than aborting. You get a nicer error in the latter case.
Please stop your incessant complaining about problems which do not exist.
How many image gallery programs do we really need in debian?
To use GNOME 1 in Debian 3.0 was the right decision since slightly outdated stable software is usually better than bleeding-edge buggy software.
The Debian installer is an exception, it really needs to be ready.
You guys might be putting the future of the project at risk, without actually realizing what you are doing.
Fear of having to switch to FreeBSD provokes some rather clueless reactions on my part.
The discussion did NOT turn to a flameware, mostly because french-speaking people are really polite people, as you probably know if you have ever driven in the Paris area.
I am speechless about the idea of putting music fans in jail for downloading music.
<mc> Mh. php: "Fatal Error: Allowed memory size of 8388608
bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 49 bytes)"
Computers run by smoke, not by electrons, anyway. Proof: The computer dies when the smoke escapes.
The Debian Project is an organic system, not a perfectable apparatus.
James Troup has a record of poor communications skills.
Martin Schulze is listed as the other DAM member. He's also the Press Contact, so I certainly hope he has good communication skills!
If you're going to claim that you don't have the knowledge to investigate and fix difficult problems, perhaps you should reconsider whether you are able to maintain your packages?
Where I come from, old hardware is unreliable hardware.
My school got a bunch of geforce cards with fans. all the fans died, killing all the cards. Now one of the criteria the math/CS department has for buying cards is that they not have fans.
Not a single one of my video cards has a fan on it.
Don't expect me to respond to a mail basically just reading "say something".
The Debian project has no interest in the profit margins of publishers of "free" manuals. This "goal" is not a concern of ours.
Obviously Linux owes its heritage to UNIX, but not its code. We would not, nor will nt, make such a claim.
Forcing Package Maintainers to apply for becoming a DD doesn't actually help raising the quality.
File a bug report, send in a patch, upload an NMU. In that order, but the delays needn't be any longer than it takes you to catch your breath.
How can you hang out in the CVS trees while not having net access?
Yeah, it's bloody marvellous. I wake up every day, screaming "I WANT MORE!!!"
Given enough eyeballs, all [problems] are shallow.
To think of Linux as a product is to freeze an inherently dynamic thing in time and to close something that is inherently open.
Gerfried, I guess you're crazy but this is a great idea.
If you have to spout nonsense, fine, but can you at least not Cc: it to me?
To be blunt, which part of "we want to release 2.6.x this year" came as a surprise to you?
Quite frankly, for Xbox support I want it to become a lot more commonly used before I actually put it into the standard kernel.
There are two things that each DD cannot miss in life... caffeine and gpgkey... How can you live without?
<Kamion> Alfie: your CA bot claims to be weasel
<Alfie> I don't have any CA bot?
<Alfie> Maybe he claims to be weasel because it _is_
weasel who made the mistake, not me?
Did Joey still not manage to implement fork(2)?
* also sprach Sven Luther <sven.luther@wanadoo.fr> [2003.08.01.0846 +0200]: > On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 03:24:22PM +0200, Martin List-Petersen wrote: > > Citat Sven Luther <sven.luther@wanadoo.fr>: > > > On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 10:22:34AM +0200, Oliver Kurth wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 09:48:01AM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 02:29:06AM +0200, Bernd Eckenfels wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 02:12:08AM +0200, Amaya wrote: > > > > > > > Martin List-Petersen dijo: please, everyone, learn to quote!
The last time I tried to use CUPS, I found it to be so user friendly that I couldn't get it to do anything useful.
The problem with Linux is that everyone is calling everything Linux.
Linux is a process, not a product
I object to this ITP. Not very strongly, but I still object.
I think it's a wonderful idea to have a decss package in Debian. If Debian cannot distribute the decss that allows Debian users to view DVD movies (yet), then distributing this one is a good alternative, I'd say.
Why the hell should this be packaged for Debian?
Unfortunately, there's a strong historical precedent for the inclusion of csh, making it difficult to get rid of... The same thing could happen if we let this package into the archive.
It's time for the software industry to grow up.
Security is about being paranoid. If you're not paranoid, it's never going to be safe...
If you were here, I would hug you, and if we ever do meet in person, I owe you a beer.
It is not a policy problem, it is a common sense one!
<doogie> And of the users? Please read the social contract. <dark> I read it every day, just before bedtime.
Well, poor Joey Hess didn't notice it, and he's a native speaker.
In Germany we all know that best English is spoken by native German spaekars - at least we understand them best (because we do mostly the same mistakes).
The attendees are an unusually diverse lot. They come in all shapes, sizes, and shades of skin tone.
Long hair, seen from behind, is just as likely to be attached to a male as a female.
<Kamion> we do say here that Americans don't get irony ;) * eigood larts kamion * Kamion attempts to offend as much of the channel as possible <eigood> Kamion: america doesn't exist, you brit <eigood> I'm a US citizen <Kamion> and I'm not a Brit, so :)
It's not acceptable to have a release without an installer.
It is, in fact, utterly unthinkable.
"Hi, I hear Debian just did a release! Congrats!"
"Hey, thanks!"
"So, I've got a new laptop here, got a CD I can use to install it?"
"No."
Am I the only one who has a disgusting reminiscence of netscape*.* packages every time python* is mentioned?
Debian can't please everyone, any more than other projects can. That is why there are choices.
If the goal is the same only the process to that goal is broken then it is a waste of time and effort.
I don't think the DAM's drawers are very on-topic here.
Debian is dying. Linux is dying. The end of the world is nigh.
Debian is but a shadow of what it could be.
KDE is a wonderful example of encouraging people.
I am so glad I don't run KDE.
I've always thought KDE a wonderful example of what happens when you give commit access to just about anybody too.
TBH, that's a lousy reason to join Debian. Send a cheque or something.
Do you have difficulty with English? That is not what I said.
This is "logical"? In what universe?
I can't count the number of hours I've wasted just turning that stuff off. There's got to be a better solution.
Programmers aren't supposed to be stupid.
OK, so you view locale stuff only as nice to have. I'm begining to understand why the glibc locales are the way they are.
I'd like to see us move all our setgid games away from using global score files.
No sooner do we get support for NEWS.Debian files than they start being abused, just like the debconf note templates that inspired NEWS.Debian support in the first place.
Is sysvinit a bad package to remove? Is that replaceable by file-rc or have I just screwed my machine?
Who is willing to step off of IRC and blaze a trail?
This is a 'Linux' show, focusing upon a product. But the real subject of this trade show -- Free Software and Open Source -- is a social movement.
Somebody has spread the word out to the world!
Man glaubts ja nicht. Emacs scheint zu verdummen.
Well, X11 seems to have quite an extensive knowledge of various keyboards out there, so the advantage of using MEDIUM_RAW is epsilon.
I didn't want to imply the whole world is a PC, on the contrary.
I think a good faith effort should involve a little more than lame pattern matching.
int who_farted(void) {
return -ENOTME;
}
<Joey> HEAD http://ftp.gnu.org/ <Joey> Server: Apache/1.3.26 (Unix) Debian GNU/Linux mod_python/2.7.8 Python/2.1.3 <wiggy> mod_python? <wiggy> I'm surprised they haven't invented mod_guile or mod_emacs
It is funny to see that the first message about Debian contains the word flamewar on it. That means we where cursed from the beginning?
It's not a real BBQ if there's no snow...
Congratulations on managing to file a duplicate report.
I have repeatedly tried to explain to Dan Jacobson why most of his bug reports are a frivolous waste of maintainers' time and effort, and even how to improve their overall quality, and so far he has demonstrated an inexplicable unwillingness to change.
Isn't there a special section of $HELL reserved for people like that?
$HELL doesn't want this guy.
This text, and the huge mess of pointless and low-quality bugs he has inflicted on Debian, in my opinion justify dumping his bug reports in the future.
Probably due to shear coincidence, he does manage to file reports on valid bugs every once in while.
This is the first time I have considered auto-closing bugs based on submitter.
Where does this Dan Joke live? Who pays for their 'net connection by time, at a rate that 5 extra minutes is a serious financial burden?
Debian's release cycle is too fast.
Having all the configuration information, for all applications, bundled up with lots of other stuff in that registry makes editing so much simpler and safer.
Never take recommendations from anyone who spells the word with two c's and just one m.
This is the Free Software movement, not the Free Support movement.
Both Gnumeric and OpenOffice.org can read that document perfectly. I don't think there's any need to make a fuss over the file format.
Who knows where RedHat is going? Debian is going nowhere, or at least they are moving very slowly.
Debian isn't OpenBSD, but I think most would agree that OpenBSD has a good understanding of the problem.
The wiring of an ENIAC is a computer program, but not software. A DRM-encumbered video file is software, but not a computer program.
Your job, as a maintainer, and a human being is to either ignore those people, or for bonus points, hunt them down and hurt them.
Debian has been an amateur effort throughout its lifetime, and its success is a testament to how little difference money sometimes makes.
Maybe the BSA should carry out more raids and "convert" more people to Linux!
<Alfie> Joey planned it for march *ducks* <Alfie> Oh, he changed the plan recently. <Alfie> Now scheduled for end of august.
Please stop to play with my bug.
Oh the dispute resolution thing from iwj. No, it never really went anywhere, AFAICT because it was impossible to resolve disputes about the document with iwj.
I have a question. Why should Debian put PaX into the kernel when the kernel developers haven't put PaX in the kernel?
This is a freeze. Only the word is missing.
I haven't seen PaX submit a patch to linux-kernel, so presumably they feel their code isn't ready for widespread use.
The sarge release plan _will_ be delayed.
Qwerty is designed to slow down typing, while azerty has no design at all.
Do you understand Dselect? That program scares the poop out me. But I figure if you can handle dselect, you can handle being governor.
Fire up the orbital mind-control lasers!
To a manipulator, all behaviors are manipulation. To a conspirator, all opposition is conspiracy.
<tbm> He was trying to help, you know. <Joy> Yes, I suck. sue me.
If developers occasionally read the policy rather than randomly quoting it, the world would be much better place.
A storm in a tea cup. Relax.
And don't forget to call them "licensing geeks"!
Have you ever built kde-i18n? When I last NMUed it it took something like nine hours for my laptop to build it, and my laptop isn't all *that* wimpy.
Emacs is a weird beastie.
Good grief, there are jurisdictions where copyright law follows the first-finder-is-keeper system used by patents?
Policy is not designed to be a stick to beat people with, and that it does not have to precede implementation.
You're both equating intelligence with knowledge of a specific computer system.
Craig's not a man known for making fine distinctions.
The user base for Linux is inherently more systems-savvy and internet-knowledgable than the Windows user base.
What someone does or does not know is not a sign of intelligence.
Policy is not a stick used to beat people with. It's a guideline. Policy has never said it was 100%.
____ _ ___ _ _ _ | _ \( )/ _ \| | | | | | | | |/| | | | |_| | | | |_| | | |_| | _ |_| |____/ \___/|_| |_(_) I just slandered someone on IRC recently for making that stupid mistake. This will be fixed in the next release. Thanks for noticing it.
It is better for me to *ask* Martin his opinion than presume his agreement.
Take your most savy Linux guru and your most savy Windows mouse-clicker (can often be one and the same person). Let each setup a secure server and point each server to the Internet. Now sit back and wait for shit to happen. Eventually it will be proven that the best platform is FreeBSD.
Policy is not here to tell people not to create bugs.
The virus also seems to have been poorly written. MS may not have the monopoly on bad programmers, but they definitely have the largest concentration of them.
It's like a house that hasn't been maintained in a few years. We're going to come back and spruce the place up.
I've never met anybody who was smart enough to write a good virus and simultaneously preferred using Microsoft Windows as his/her desktop OS.
It's interesting to wake up in the morning because you never know what will happen on a given day. You realize you're in the middle of the hurricane.
Revert to galeon 1.2 because you have to press Alt instead of Ctrl?
Submitting patches also have the wonderful effect of motivating developers to spend more time on the project.
You learn a lot in release cycles.
The highs and lows get you hardened and toughened and take on a steady tone.
You do realise that all parts of SMTP are generally completely unauthenticated and can be trivially forged?
Every MTA is sending bounces to mails with forged headers.
Sometimes, there is no choice.
How amusing to see Sobig.F cited as the reason for reassigning grave severity to a bug!
Looks to me as if you just didn't find a sobig-f package to file the bug against, so something else had to be the culprit.
In its current state, I wouldn't trust SPI to change a light bulb.
<cdlu> Joey: you is plural <Joey> I'd like to be in plural... three of me would be a good start :) <cdlu> Joey: oh god. ;)
The only way to negotiate with government power is from behind a wallet or a gunsight.
Maybe, just maybe, this is the beginning of the end of this mess.
debconf: "Do you want to configure libnet-perl with debconf" me: "No fucking way" debconf: "Please enter a space-separated list of NNTP servers"
The theory is that since we haven't set a date for sarge's release yet, it can't possibly be late, and that therefore adding more people will make it release sooner. Or was it that one about many cooks? No, no, many _hands_. Yes, that was it.
We can't have master being DoSsed.
Linux isn't a corporation; and Linus would happily agree that Linux isn't a person.
Even RMS does not post that the GNU GPL and the GNU FDL are compatible licenses.
There are many developers not agreing completly with our current policy. There is even a mailing list for those subversive people.
Free software doesn't die, it just gets packaged as a .deb.
Roland sweared a lot when installing Debian. Like "I wrote a fucking third of the OS and can't install it".
I can't say that replacing a Microsoft monoploy with a Linux monopoly looks like any advance to me.
GNU/Linux is like a wigwam: no gates, no windows and an Apache insinde.
Some people are worried about a few things, like software patents, but in my view software patents are so absurd that I expect that open source will happily survive all that, even if situations arise where a few specific projects are forced to rewrite some of their code to work around a patent.
Linux development is still way behind Windows in terms of features, in particular security features.
If bigger is better, then Debian wins hands down.
Ideally, we would all sit at our keyboards tying "dwim" all day and the world would magically become a better place.
<fabbione> Bah, today my english sucks more than usual. <fabbione> Anyway, I guess you got my point.
Feel free to send me that invoice, by the way, i'm out of toilet paper.
Security does not only come from lack of bugs, it is also a matter of support for security features and tight integration of those security features.
Glibc does not claim binary compatiblity for statically linked binaries, and in fact the compatiblity tends to break from time to time when using nss.
The problem with the complacency in the Linux camp is that Microsoft shows every sign that it has the security religion now.
Collecting data is only the first step toward wisdom, but sharing data is the first step toward community.
You should be killfiled for life for that one if you are being serious.
I sometimes think that I, as an atheist, take the concept of redemption more seriously than many Christians I've met.
Having packages for software in Debian that no one uses is a waste of resources.
The recent spate of Microsoft patches are mostly for bugs Microsoft themselves discovered during their code reviews.
There are twice as many Apache sites as IIS sites, so one would expect to see twice as many Apache defacements if they were attacked equally often and defended equally well.
Unlike RedHat/SuSe, we're not here just for the entertainment of the big end of town.
There are two ways to install Debian: The easy way and the easier way.
In a nutshell, I was told that Debian's installation was not difficult by intention, but rather by neglect.
Debian is not in the habit of editing its history.
Even if Debian decides not to use GNU manuals, some kinds of cooperation should still be possible, as long as we are civil to each other.
Clarity of communication is a burden that falls upon both the speaker and listener.
People don't go after big business because it's "cool". People go after big business because it's visible.
Trying to avoid extra dependencies on Gnumeric is like trying to plug one hole in the Titantic with a bit of tissue paper.
The answer to buffer overruns is not to try more care. The answer is to switch to programming styles and languages that prevent buffer overruns.
The problem, amazingly enough, is that he did google for "dueling banjos sheet music", and Debian is the number one and number two hit!
* Fix sepelling error in description (closes: #125545)
You /.ers are fairly clueless - two of you who haven't bathed in a month(each) can bring SCO's network to its knees.
Neither Debian nor FSF horse-trade their ethos in the interest of their relationship.
[netsplit] Can someone set the OPN-emulation switch to off?
I can hardly distinguish vacation vs non-vacation based on your activity. (since you ovbiously did stuff during the vacation)
Any resumes which include the Santa Cruz Operation after May of 2003 will be immediately deleted as well.
It's not so often that I'm so happy to be wrong.
Because just having two packages "because they're there" is stupid.
FWIW, I always enjoy it when it comes up again. Maybe I should start a Dueling Banjos Fan Club.
Javier, you just volunteered yourself for a huge task, so I'll understand if you get overwhelmed by it.
Curiously enough, while googling I've found some pretty good descriptions in the ports tree of some of the BSD distributions.
I am sorry. I had not meant my reply to preclude the maintainers from thinking.
The security team only performs updates for non-free packages when there is nothing better to do, and there is always something better to do.
Megasheet of tissue paper applied to Gnumeric upload awaiting ftp-master magic dust sprinkling.
The person who shouts the longest wins.
We rely on the common sense of developers.
I think we (Debian) would be nuts of deprive ourselves of Branden's experience with licensing issues, and this issue in particular.
I like black boxes.
From an old fart, I gotta take exception to that.
I must totally disagree with the people that say, Mandrake is the best distro for beginners. Mandrake is in fact a fat, slow runing giant.
Branden is trying to make innocent things look bad; shame on him.
Debian doesn't waste its time with a wimpy graphical installation program - in the Unix tradition, it goes right for the jugular with good old-fashioned text-mode.
Bugger off, wait like the rest of the planet.
If nothing else, it might allow me to shut down my workstation at night (which currently runs spamd for my 100Mhz mailserver. The latter could probably run it itself if the amount of SPAM received would be a bit lower).
Are you just ignoring the people suggesting that tests have *already* shown that harvesters are using techniques that make this a useless measure?
SPAM is a multi-million dollar industry. They can afford to hire smart programmers.
Should I go pester the glibc people then? Or should I first buy lots of protective gear and a nuclear-proof bunker?
Good for you. I'm not sure that's relevant.
Money has a funny way of affecting peoples behavior.
In other words, don't let stubborn package maintainers rest on the assumption that you're the only person who gives a damn about this.
Windows will give a pop-up and die when it runs into trouble. Unix will copy what it can and give the error messages with its dying breath.
Unfortunately there are a lot of people who think they know things they don't.
Surely you know that security and PHPNuke are immiscible?
Analyst's report reveals that Linux is more expensive than CP/M!
The days of the idiot spammer are long gone.
This has become a self-perpetuating Google-flop.
Even loyal Debianeers are reluctant to recommend their favorite distro to newbies.
Linux does not require technical ability anymore.
The changelog is not a bug-closing device, it's a place to document changes.
"This is fixed" is the only response that is useless to everyone.
The people who want Debian to distribute for the MIPS architecture need to put up or shut up.
Linux does not require technical ability anymore.
Hmm. Apparently when I shift into "Beavis" gear, it's difficult to shift out.
What you distribute as 2.4.22 is not 2.4.22. I don't care that it can be made to be 2.4.22, it is not.
So you're maintaining a kernel patch for Debian that has severe security implication but you don't know enough about it and the code it touches to do some forward porting?
I hope that you're joking. (Well, I fear that you're not.)
<impulse> I'm just expierencing the wonderful joy
how a database crashes in slow motion.
Also, let me really clear about our Linux strategy. We don't have one.
People google, Google points them to Debian to get this sheet music, and the act of asking reinforces Google's notion that Debian is a good place to get the music!
Please don't make any assumption that I knew what I was doing there.
Good application designers assume the users are complete idiots.
You realize, of course, that while you responded you Jaldhar, you have disagreed with Santiago Vila, and now it's down to a matter of honor.
If you want slow, try one of the DMAless Macs.. that's just p.a.i.n.f.u.l.
Although many hardcore geeks swear by Debian, the majority still swears at it.
Your footnotes are dangling.
There are enough brain dead upstream packaging practices that we can not mandate pristine sources.
We suck at writing web pages. Feel free to write some. If we like them, we might even incorporate them on gnu.org.
We do not believe that Linux plays a role on the server.
I welcome your efforts at brokering an amicable settlement.
The usual translation for VMS is Vomit Making System...
I found the VAX port to be interesting purely because it's so early.
Unix and Unix like systems are based on a simple and easy concept when it comes to security.
God, there is a hole in this logic big enough to drive a truck through.
Debian policy sets the policy for Debian packages, not for upstream.
You're never going to be taken seriously if you post crap to the wrong mailing lists.
Sun Microsystems crossed the line from "troubled" to "doomed" yesterday.
<z80a> Is there a reason why bind 9 (woody version) tries
to contact itself through IP 127.0.0.2?
<Robot101> It's lonely.
I suspect that after the first one or two motherboards come out with this new MS-BIOS on it, community support for porting LinuxBIOS will increase.
I'm sorry, but it takes an awfully long time to sink a ship the size of Sun.
Changelogs exist to document changes, not black-box outputs.
We are not bending our rules, we are following them.
There are many times when you want it to ignore the rest of the string just like atof() does. Oddly enough, Perl calls atof(). How convenient. :-)
Bloggers flogging the blogging
How is arguing an offence of the social contract?
Hiding the bloody problem in a private list is a violation of the social contract.
Invoking the social contract for every little quarrel doesn't strengthen its spirit at all.
Most of Sun's techies are running Linux on their PCs at home.
If Audi stole Honda's copyrighted engine design, would Audi owners be sued because they their car contains a part that is the result of copyright infringement?
Kernel developers dont use the Debian source package as a base for their work.
<two-face> stockholm: I think your question got lost :) <stockholm#debian-devel> two-face: dont bother, the joke is dead...
Software, as the scope of the DFSG, is everything in the "Work" that is not hardware or wetware.
I oppose the retroactive alteration of our mailing list archives.
Do not be a human buildd -- there are more important things to spend time on.
Can we put some random porn links inside the BTS? It might encourage people to look at it.
There's a worrying tendency at the moment to madduck everything where possible.
a. Whack upstream with a cluebat.
b. Repeat a.
c. What happens when the program gets reimplemented in another
language?
d. Keep repeating a.
I tried whacking myself repeatedly with the cluebat. Unfortunately, it was not as effective as whacking someone else.
The problem is that libtool upstream has always prioritized functionality on broken architectures above correctness on non-broken architectures.
Let's be serious, FreeS/WAN has serious issues! Being at war with the kernel routing machinery, for example.
I look forward to pissing on the OpenBSD tent at the next security conference.
People take my posturing a a poor durned furriner from poor third world foreign lands without the proverbial pinch of salt.
One disk to rule them all. One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie.
The goal is not to avoid getting sued, it's to avoid breaking the law.
Everybody forgets things from time to time. I know I do, especially when busy.
If people had said I do not understand what you said, rather than trying to tell me it is incorrect english, I may have been inclined to be more sympathetic.
Increasing the amount of collateral damage is just plain wrong.
Basically, Eray was social trouble. He proved to be able to disrupt the mailing lists as nobody else had ever managed to.
By requiring at least one binary package, we ensure the package can at least be built.
Competent human operator time is more valuable and in shorter supply.
Real men use hjkl.
hjkl is the brainchild of the Global Qwerty Conspiracy.
We might be more successful in resolving the issue if some people stopped thinking of it as an ad hominem flamewar.
I'm investigating now roughly how much it would cost to charter a plane from Europe for the trip, to see if that would be cheaper overall.
* JHM patiently awaits a new dose of Marillat's excellent bug handling and social skills.
<Kamion> Who was it who wondered if the BTS was going to run
into LFS problems with its caught-spam folders?
<Kamion> Whoever it was, you were right.
<superbenk> Well, time to feed the kid... bbl <grmbl> What kind of kid is that, that you have to feed for hours? King Kong?
Hold back the maintainer's binary upload until at least one autobuild succeeds. This would keep unbuildable packages out of the archive.
You're committing the fallacy of affirmation of the consequant.
<James> If my vote counts for anything, please do the second not the first.
<JoeyH> I'd say it counts for about 99% unless we hear from another
ftpmaster with a differing opinion.
It's funny, I hear a lot of people saying "Some people might find this offensive". I've never heard anyone say "I find this offensive".
Perhaps we should suggest Debian as a better base than Red Hat?
I'm not sure that "operating system" is a good way to describe Debian these days.
<Oskuro> In svn, does the Attic work the same as in CVS? <CosmicRay> There is no Attic in svn
Given the size of the company I work for and the number of bizarre, illogical and contradictory laws in the various nations across the globe, I believe it is nearly certain that it engages in illegal activity.
Computer security is like an onion: The more you dig in, the more you want to cry.
Debian is very cool, because it is user supported and user developed.
<vorlon> I guess we'll have to petition for TLD .gnu, so we
can properly call the site ftp.gnu/linux.hr?
You appear to conceive of humor as a zero-sum game.
Perhaps the landslide just means people don't want to loudly proclaim Debian's support of non-free software anymore?
Linux was added in the nineties to complete the GNU project started in the eighties.
Man. I'm going to have to get a list of all medications known to man and ban every fucking last one of them from being mentioned in the BTS.
Hmm. Tytso comes out for removal of GFDL and makes a better argument than me.
Let's drop computing and get some life.
Subject: NEWS FLASH: thread hijacked by GNU/Linux bitching
I have vague memories of a truly insane shell script manipulating assembly... Or maybe just hand-written assembly bootstrap utilities for each port.
Apparently, the Novell CEO upon signing the agreement burst out into song: "Suse-Q, baby I love you, Suse-Q".
Quite a set of statements to spawn new subthreads.
If the packages are micro-split upstream(separate downloads), then we have no choice. but if they are distributed as a whole upstream, then micro-splitting should be avoided.
We generally like xuing (like netstd or netbase), but this just went too far.
Debian's ideology has always been that pragmatism is more important than ideology.
Giving a gypsy a gold coin helps.
I've read the post regarding grsecurity and Debian, and I must say that I've never seen a bigger bunch of lazy whiners in my life.
Debian is not a company, we can't put someone in charge, we rely on volunteers.
Debian is *wonderful* for kernel development, but I wouldn't touch Herbert's kernels with a ten-feet pole.
An older libc6 than the one in stable? Where did you find that?
Branden, I think the best way to get your Social Contract revisions passed is to just join the BTS admin team.
It seems to me, then, that we are already in practice treating non-free as less important than the main distribution.
No voting system is entirely free of insincere voting.
So it's a tradeoff, bandwidth vs CPU. At the moment CPU seems to be the factor for mirror admins.
Because at this point it'd be a nuisance to rename it, I decided not to. If there is a strong consensus to the contrary we can do it.
Sorry, users will still ask. They always ask.
Andrew, I agree with you, it's impossible to make programs run faster just by making them to use different hardware instructions.
If you want to benchmark the kernel, use something that spends a significant amount of time in the kernel.
In the future, just make sure you know where you are sending stuff.
Once KDE 4 is being worked on upstream we will need to try to get all the rest of the mess cleaned up. Hopefully we will have time.
Please provide carefully documented evidence of the performance gains that you are claiming, not handwaving.
You have not shown what you claim you have shown.
This premise assumes that only developers use unstable, and in my experience this is very far from the truth.
I want the users to have as many choices as possible.
One would hope that developers would bother filing a bug report.
It's easier to make code slower than it is to make it faster.
The Debian social contract specifies that we will not hide problems. The project is based on free and open discussion.
I think it's silly to claim that a flaw that's been well-known for ages constitutes an RC bug that should be allowed to hold up the progress of the release.
Security is not a spectator sport.
_ __ __ _____ _ _ _ _ _
/ \ | \/ || ____|| \ | | | |__ _ __ ___ | |_ | |__ ___ _ __
/ _ \ | |\/| || _| | \| | | '_ \ | '__|/ _ \ | __|| '_ \ / _ \| '__|
/ ___ \ | | | || |___ | |\ | _ | |_) || | | (_) || |_ | | | || __/| |
/_/ \_\|_| |_||_____||_| \_|( )|_.__/ |_| \___/ \__||_| |_| \___||_|
|/
If you don't have a proper From line, everybody will think you're a dickhead.
You are the "secret" Boss of the project.
No way, man. We simply have to have people repeat the same fodder on debian-devel over and over again. The three hundred odd mails per day from the new fodder just aren't enough!
The POSIX capability code is notoriously subtle and prone to anger.
Regarding options available to choose and women breasts' size, quantity is always quality.
I think this is a serious bug: The functionality of the free version has been lowered to promote patent emcumbered package.
Saying "The maintainer didn't care enough about the package you need." only sounds like a good reason to switch to RedHat...
There are going to be packages that users want that aren't included. That's life. We are never going to support every program that anyone might think they need.
Go ahead and do it. I could frankly care less if your users get owned.
I finally convinced a sysadmin friend of mine that Debian was the way and the light.
The core of the problem, IMHO, is how unstable has become a playground that really belongs to experimental.
I used to think that the worst offender in breaking working applications was Debian.
SCO is beating a dead and buried horse if they try to go after BSD.
Surely you are not saying that I need to buy a bigger house in order to remain a Debian developer?
Oh, wow, wonderful comment on debian-boot. Somebody was drunk while testing the installer, and the automatic CD-ROM eject knocked his coffee cup and spilled coffee all over his clothes.
Unless the kernel significantly changes algorithms for things like swapout, your benchmark says more about random variability than kernel performance.
Because, of course, a malicious buildd admin or member of the Debian Security Team is a flat impossibility, as is compromise of a buildd box.
Why on earth did you ITP it if you can't test whether it works?
Having a pile of audited software is *much* more useful to admins than an endless stream of "gotcha again!" advisories.
If organisations could feel grumpy about the past, Novell would have the blues so bad BB King should write the company anthem.
Your perceptions are vaguely reliable for the difference between 10 seconds and one second. They're not so good for the difference between one second and a half second, and they're utterly useless for the difference between fifteen minutes and ten (really).
In the digital era, every content IS a number (eg a CD is just a number with 650 millions of binary digits).
* wiggy wonders if Joey[] is connecting using smoke signals <wiggy> and every 15 minutes a breeze blows them away
There's a lot of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" going on, but the bathwater is so foul that many companies don't mind the occasional loss of baby.
<doogie> Sir_Ahzz: You left a Debian CD in master <Sir_Ahzz> You can keep it. :)
No one knows what SPI does.
I don't consider myself entirely dumb, but I have failed to understand the document. For a HOWTO, there are not enough examples, and the few examples are so complicated that nobody can grasp the concepts.
You can't be nice and hand something out for free then try to assign a value to it after the fact.
You're asking a loose nit group of some 1000+ volunteers who work independently to produce a "road map"?
The 2.4 scheduler tends to fuck up and run multiple jobs on the same physical CPU, leaving the other one idle.
I expect the enterprise kernels do much better - but they are still at 2.4.9, patched to hell & back.
"Cyberterrorism" is propaganda nonsense.
<elmo_h> ??????????!!!!!!!!!!? <elmo_h> oh my god, we have a moron to top all morons <elmo_h> someone shipped their ~/.gnupg/ (including secring.gpg) IN A PACKAGE
I've done something with Glibc in months, that took years to produce with NetBSD libc.
Doing a few basic RO mounts isn't going to significantly increase security.
Should Debian users be expected to forward their bug reports upstream instead of filing Debian bug reports?
SCO has decided to play legal chicken with IBM.
It is not a good idea to mess with the PGP defaults if you are not a cryptographer.
Seems attackers who benefit from weak passwords also suffer from it.
God I hate closed lists. I see why outsiders hate debian-private at times like this.
When counting the Right Thing is to start at 0.
<etbe> When will we be able to upload packages to Debian again? <weasel> after sarge released. This is a kind of a sneak freeze.
Try modifying MTRR to make your memory uncached. Suddenly your Xeon will feel like an m68k.
So Pascal and Ada give you more freedom because you can choose to start with 0.
It's been proven plenty of times that whenever we have task depend on a single person doing it, the lack of redundancy comes back and bites us in the ass whenever there's the slightest bit of a problem.
Running a buildd for Debian requires more knowledge than just booting a machine, doing an install, pointing wanna-build at auric and crossing your fingers.
SE Linux docs make much more sense when you s/security/Mooo/g
It's called 0 because I felt it belonged at the front of the list and I had already numbered the others 1 through 3.
RMS primary task is to advance free software, not rant at people running non-free software, too.
In my experience, enterprises prefer a longer (stable) release cycle than testing's daily churn.
People are bickering enough as it is when packages don't move into testing that we don't need this extra reason for them to bicker.
This seems like a solution in search of a problem.
And if we hadn't had perl 5.8.1 in unstable, then we would never have spotted its binary incompatibility with 5.8.0. Upstream released 5.8.2 precisely because the problem had been discovered in Debian unstable.
I know, selinux will fix all problems.
NetBSD? Does that have sane hardware support? I don't mean running on calculators, I mean running on machines <2yrs old.
The kernel is one of those unmaintainable packages I'd really like to just issue an advisory for along the lines of "don't use this, it's too fucked up to fix". Unfortunately it's the kernel...
UML can't even be built from source in woody because the release process did not keep its build-dependencies in sync. I do not know whether it is in fact affected by this bug, but it seems probable.
<stockholm> tbm is visiting people in Australia. <doogie> What kind of people? <doogie> Austrialia is full of criminals.
Embarrassment is often an effective motivator for changing security habits.
Submitting upstream bugs to Debian BTS only slows down the packaging work by requiring the maintainer to act as a go between on the bug.
Well good then, by your definition the autoreplies aren't spam because they're sent out in direct response to another message. Problem solved.
It's your choice, you can do some work to advance your goals, or complain because other people aren't doing the work for you. Complaining usually doesn't make things happen.
<Joy> it was mildly amusing to see yoj and yoej in lastlog :) <Joy> YOU'RE POLLUTING MY NAMESPACE EVEN WHEN WE'RE UPSIDE DOWN
To put it bluntly, our regular package maintainers are doing such a bad job that without significant assistance from NMUs, about 6% of the archive fails to meet even our absolute minimum expectations.
It's generally wrong to assume that more email lists will result in better coverage.
And now for something completly different. A man with 3 noses.
And I say this as I currently sit at a customer site in Atlanta working a critical situation, while wearing a suit (but not a tie, so the flow of blood to the brain has not been impeded :-).
Even the single unanswered question I had after the last announcement was answered by today's message.
I read the application form, and it reminds me of the hoops you have to jump through if you want to buy a beer in Utah...
If it's already gross, making it hugely gross is not much of a descent.
Gosh, so many topics, so much to say, so little time...
One of my client companies recently paid $50,000 for a 20-year-old Data General computer because they have a homegrown business critical software application that runs exclusively on the DG hardware.
Don't worry: In my state, hurry isn't an option :->
I think the world needs another announce list like I need a hole in the head.
Q: What's the difference between the Weekly World News and the New York Times? A: The Weekly World News tells you that it makes up its stories.
The worry is that if someone wanted to be malicious, they could change core software and users could be using corrupted packages.
It is one of those things where you have to hope you are not next and try to be one step ahead of the bad guys.
As long as no-one is interested in making kernel-patch packages for PaX the chances of getting it in the default Debian kernel source is exceedingly low.
It's all in Java. It's good stuff though.
I advise to put the effort into general basic information to start a new digital Aufklärung.
We work on dependency resolving while bootstraping the system. Parsing the whole Packages files needs at least 6mb additional memory at this time.
Perhaps PowerPoint is uniquely suited to our modern age of obfuscation -- where manipulating facts is as important as presenting them clearly.
Do you consider being curt with the public to be your exclusive territory?
I am putting my work where my mouth is.
<wiggy> why use %7E isntead of ~ ? <Manoj> wiggy: I am, umm, old fashioned
Maybe they'd prefer Debian GNU/KLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZABCDEFGHIJNetBSD most of all. One can't get too far away from those pinkos in Boston!
It's much nicer to get ENOSPC than a kernel panic.
Most people think of Gimp as powerful but difficult. When viewed from the right mindset, Gimp is incredibly easy. Just think layers. Lots of layers. If you mess up one layer, just redo it.
Open source developers are no longer generalized as individuals who stay up late at night, drinking Coke and hacking.
If you want to cooperate with Debian developers then you have to find some area of mutual interest.
Many developers also believe that NMUs are an hostile act or that dpkg2 will get ready some day.
<joshk> Would you guys say that being involved in open source
development helped get you into college?
<Oskuro> joshk: No.
<Joey> No.
<joey> It's rather the other way round...
<Joey> It keeps me from leaving the university.
The release will remain a joke so long as people don't consider RC bugs to be serious.
Better to educate people on ways to remember long passwords.
The code does look like it ought to be taken out and shot.
The quality of bugs has been pretty high recently.
<Hydroxide> Is any listmaster there? <doogie> probably. <doogie> You really should ask if one is alive. <Hydroxide> true <Hydroxide> Is one alive? <doogie> They are all alive. <doogie> You should better ask is one awake. <Hydroxide> Stop leading me on :) here's a better question: <Hydroxide> Is any listmaster paying attention to this channel?
At WSIS, in a climate of suppression of dissent, the score is 0-0.
<jbailey> I have a dream that one day Ulrich Drepper and
Linus Torvalds go into a room, and only one comes
out. Then maybe glibc would be easier to work with.
w_NumArgs is signed integer, so after you've sent 2GB of ';' characters in escape sequence it wraps to negative and the < MAXARGS protection fails.
Sorry for posting twice. I shouldn't send mails with a low coffein level.
I've had an impression that Windows does not allow overwriting of files when files are in use, making dpkg essentially impossible.
I wrote them [ctype.h] (and looking at the original ones, I'm a bit ashamed: the "toupper()" and "tolower()" macros are so horribly ugly that I wouldn't admit to writing them if it wasn't because somebody else claimed to have done so.
Congratulations on not subscribing to debian-security-announce.
If you have nothing to say, maybe you need just the right tool to help you not say it.
woody is starting to rot in hands.
The important thing to remember here is that customers don't buy operating systems, they purchase solutions.
Kermit is dead. Zmodem is dead. The argument died ten years ago! Get over it!
Civil society was offered the chance to speak to a dead Mike.
It is unfortunate that the section is called non-free, which carries a lot of implications, rather than read-the-license, since that is what it means.
People should contribute more. I would, but I have no time to.
I'm going out for dinner this evening; I'll be back around 9pm.
Why don't you fix actual problems instead of fighting the windmills?
I'm being appalled that Anthony is using his BTS powers as a substitute for technical arguments, that's all.
I think what IA64 needs more than anything is just more users trying stuff. I switched to it as my main desktop recently and started finding things to work on almost straight away...
Makefile.PL is the root of all evil.
I really love trying to work with people who aren't even willing to offer the benefit of any doubt in assuming the worst of me.
Python, OTOH, is a dependency nightmare.
In light of that, what can I recommend to upstream? "Use a real video api instead of hacking one yourself?" And if so, is there a clear winner?
The right way to get rid of non-free software, in my opinion, is to write better Free Software.
Are the people using the Debian infrastructure to support non-free helping to prevent the problems from being solved?
So the palatibility of this proposal depends on the premise that our release schedules will continue to get worse?
You seem to be thinking that the useful thing we're trying to do here is vote on something.
Windows applications use the chance of rebooting to copy files that are previously used; thus dpkg and apt will probably need to use Windows reboots to get applications upgraded.
Due to that fact, we should rename Sid to Buzz. Since that name had already been used for Debian 1.1, this would give the term "release cycle" a really interesting conotation.
We don't ban morally-bankrupt fuckwits for being morally-bankrupt, but we really don't want fuckwits.
Debian already sucks.
<wiggy> Ah, Joey is continueing my tradition of typoing advisories <wiggy> 'locate root exploit' * Joey sighs deeply .o O ( will visit the doctor tomorrow for a cure of the wiggy-desease )
Automatic creation of debs from CPAN modules is in a poor state and is getting poorer.
Debian must be equally Free for all.
The thread continues because you responded to it.
hotmail.com is a good service if you want an email address for controversial things.
Debian does not have a monopoly on trust.
It is also cool to see people coming to Debian because of practicality, and then discovering this cool libré software thing.
I don't think removing packages people rely on for cause is a show-stopper in any way.
So the list of disadvantages of removing non-free is growing while the list of advantages remains small and almost unstated.
If you are going to argue with me, please at least argue with what I actually stated.
I don't believe that people are using non-free to prevent problems from being solved.
I'm pretty sure neither of us felt we were doing anything morally questionable.
You get a sense of things in this job, when things are not exactly focused, when patterns don't make a lot of sense.
Logic is great, but its results are meaningless unless you start from a meaningful position.
<Nathanael Nerode> X Windows: <Andrew Suffield> May you burn over a slow flame.
I don't know about converting, but if you mess with my carefuly crafted printcap, I will hurt you. :)
Without knowing what you are talking about, it's hard for me to answer.
This is confusing. non-free is not in Debian, so it cannot be removed from it.
The most typical reason for things to be in non-free is that the copyright terms don't allow us to fully support that piece of software.
I hope you do not think, that non-free software is a healing water.
This is going to be a hard sell. In fact, this is a job for Superman.
Hacking is a normal activity of the human condition. It is the effort of bending reality to conform to one's needs.
I don't make any claims about what the rest of the world would do.
<Kamion> I WISH JOY WOULD STOP SAYING STUFF THEN IMMEDIATELY LEAVING
I always go for a second opinion, even if it's my own...
The joy of X - I've always hated compiling graphical shite. You have a 10 line program, and it ends up depending on the entire known universe.
The most typical reason for things to be in contrib is that the software is mostly useless without some other component which we can't fully support.
However, if the security team say jump, I won't even ask how high.
Ah, the first refuge of the incompetent and the bogus - you can't argue with the points raised or the facts provided, so attack the person.
Trust me - writing kernel code in C++ is a BLOODY STUPID IDEA.
If you want to run untrusted Perl, then don't use mod_perl.
My impression is that a lot of the recent Red Hat moves (charging for updates, Fedora) are driving away a lot of customers and that's resulting in a real spike in Debian interest.
Anyway, in case you guys feared that you knew about this but hadn't communicated it to me, fear not. It was all me. :(
However, we can be fairly confident that a DD won't introduce a deliberate security flaw into non-free.
Das ist die glibc, das Rückrat so ziemlich aller GNU/Linux Programme.
It all depends on how many of those 64 bits are 1's. 1's are a lot heavier than 0's, so too many of them will slow your program down a lot.
This reminds of "back in the day" when we ran a token ring network. When end users would complain about net outage we'd simply tell them that the token got stuck or, worse yet lost. Fortunately, we have a backup token on floppy back in the systems room.
Interfere with my personal life, get a kick in the head. Ask anybody who has broken an application I use frequently.
The whole C++ exception handling thing is fundamentally broken.
Where's an MS patch when we really need one?
I think that non-free software is dangerous and mostly evil like a narcotic and should be immediately dropped.
Please stop replying to spam, at least on debian-devel. Spam is best left in ignored single-message threads.
Also, SCO has apparently several times mentioned how copyright notices have been removed. Just for the record: Original Unix doesn't have any copyright notices to remove. They were added after a lawsuit [between the Berkeley developers and AT&T, which was settled]. So SCO would be wrong again..."
I see all these Ask Slashdot articles about unemployment these days.
They're a cornered rat, and quite frankly, I think they have rabies to boot.
A Debian email address means you have a Debian email address. Nothing more, nothing less.
I guess we can live with that little shortcoming, but it has to be documented.
We regularly find stuff in the archive that shouldn't be there. It's usually a mistake.
I've got a whole bunch of viruses that didn't make it onto this list which I would be willing to forward to you. (See! The listmasters are useful for something!)
And the fact that we are even having this discussion is a proof that you are wrong.
Any compiler or language that likes to hide things like memory allocations behind your back just isn't a good choice for a kernel.
Maintaining more codebases is potentially *good*, not bad.
Andrea, being a kernel hacker, wants bugs to be detected and does not want redundancy in kernel source code.
Too many pronouns error.
I, er, need to release 4.3.0-1 to unstable before climbing trees.
Some people probably think it'd be useful if they could take the Linux kernel in main, rip out a bunch of subsystems, then include it in the next release of Windows.
Where is the "Peter Palfrader is not only my friend, he's my religion"-option?
In May 2003, the University of Wisconsin - Madison found that it was the recipient of a continuous large scale flood of inbound Internet traffic destined for one of the campus' public Network Time Protocol (NTP) servers. The flood traffic rate was hundreds-of-thousands of packets-per-second, and hundreds of megabits-per-second.
Any known examples of source packages build-conflicting with their own binary packages? (Would this be considered pure EViL?)
Sometimes you have to choose between two evils.
Recently, after some sort of an incident that I know very little about, it went from bad to oh-God-please-throw-an-iron-and-don't-miss.
The package has already undergone Xuification which means two binary packages are created.
Stop wasting entropy - start using predictable tempfile names today!
<Joey> DAMN IT! DO PEOPLE THINK I WASTE MY TIME JUST FOR THE FUN OF IT? <asuffield> We've never been able to figure out why you waste your time.
Let's nip that in the bud before people start wasting time over it.
In gettext, I was close to add a build-conflicts with itself because of a libtool problem: libgettextsrc ended up being linked against the previously installed version of libgettextlib, not against the libgettextlib to be included in the .deb which was being created.
I'd wager that there are more gay developers than there are developerettes.
Auditing is needed not just because some developers refuse to read or follow such standards, but also because humans make mistakes, and may fail to completely or correctly follow all rules perfectly.
For the record, roughly 1-2% of the spam sent to a Debian mailing list actually makes it through to the list.
Interesting...I had never tried LFS with C++ iostreams until gcc 3.2, and so I assumed it had never worked. I didn't realize this was a regression.
Let's make sure we don't make the same mistake as Red Hat of making UTF-8 the default in advance of good software support for it.
So if there were no "real reasons" for the upload to be delayed any longer, why didn't *you* do it?
Oh the horror. I have to install Emacs in order to build Python.
<taggart> WARNING: This IRC server is going to be going away for
about 15 mins while I move the machine
*** The time is 01:30
*** The time is 02:00
<taggart> Ok it's going away in the next couple minutes and will
be down for <15mins if all goes well
*** The time is 02:30
* taggart is an idiot
<taggart> The IRC server hasn't been moved onto the box he moved yet
* taggart adds another thing to the list to do, "move IRC server"
Don't blame yourself for the negligence of people who don't bother to write proper manpages.
At first I tried Perl, it was horrible.
I am afraid I am lost in the volume of email backlog that has accumulated in my two week vacation (and the obligatory week of illness that visiting the mother country always induces in me).
No developer can control their incoming mail. That's why it's called "incoming", as distinct from "outgoing", the mail which they control.
What makes you think you have any more right to expect help from the buildd maintainers than the release manager has to expect active support from the security team?
K&R is a veritable tome of bad advice.
Wow. News from the EFF that isn't depressing ...
Complaints are completely off topic for announcement lists. WTF were you thinking?
In a thread about circumventing access policies... The access policy of the list has been "worked around".
My subscription seems to have been accidentally changed from debian-devel to debian-nm-buildd-flamewars, is something wrong with murphy?
Funny, this thread started with claims being made about people who spend almost all of their free time to Debian, which should be replaced, as if their contributions weren't considered useful.
It's a common misunderstanding that automatic tools would be able to solve every problem.
This resolution would make every developer in violation of the DMUP for receiving spam. It is insane.
Thank God we don't have to address the actual contents of Ingo's mail!
FOSDEM is chaotic. Very chaotic. Talks often appear not on the programme. Audience size varies from about a dozen to uncounted hundreds.
Mac OS 9 and earlier are completely secured against computer security problems, since they do not have a command line, like UNIX systems do.
Pain is defined as this: building d-i images for both sparc64 and sparc32 on a Sparcstation 10 with 2 SM61s and 128MB of RAM.
* Joy sees what wiggy sees <Joy> and it's not "Being Wichert Akkerman"
I have personally negotiated with several hardware vendors including Matrox, Nvidia, and Compaq about making drivers and other support software 100% DFSG compliant. The success has been mixed, but in every case, they are beginning to "see the light".
I've modified Bob's hash to be useful in the Linux kernel, and any bugs present are surely my fault.
Joey: in sarge we have 11 kernel-source packages Joey: *ELEVEN* We will release with 11 kernel-source packages over my dead, decaying body.
-> *Joey* 7query *Joey* command not found
Now that I'm unemployed, I feel more secure knowing that I have no money which can be scammed from me because of a "Patriot" Act.
I mean the good old boot-floppies.
We are the Ogg family from Terry Pratchett's Discworld books. We prefer to fight amongst ourselves, but we'll become an army if an outsider opposes us.
And, if we were a cult there would be more sex and money involved.
We have had sex in Debian for many years now.
Whoa, Matrix flashback... "It seems that you've been living two lives. One life, you're James Troup, systems administrator for a respectable Linux distribution. You have a @debian.org e-mail address, write hairy katie scripts, and you ... help developers upload their garbage. The other life is lived in IRC, where you go by the hacker alias "elmo" and are guilty of virtually every crime against buildd admins and new maintainers we can flame you for. One of these lives has a future, and one of them does not." (With apologies to the Wachowski brothers, Hugo Weaving, James, and anyone else who needs to be apologised to).
We just made it up, and it sounded about right?
Automatic tools are inhumen. And the worse way for newbies.
A guy in the FSF booth was saying: "What does Linux World have in common with a computer chip? -- Each year it gets smaller!"
People that do not understand that this is ONLY AN E-MAIL ADDRESS need to get a life.
I want to get rid of Perl from the base system. Not that I don't like it, but I prefer shoop. Everything that is written in Perl in our base system, should be rewritten in shoop instead.
I think James is an excellent contributor to the project.
Lawyers do not necessarily share the hacker fascination with endless email discussion.
It has proven to be difficult to impossible to get people to do any real work towards doing things in this "obvious" way.
It's awfully damn hard to be all things to all people, after all.
Argh! This blog has not been updated in a while because the hours I don't sleep I work.
I think we all agree we want to see more women involved in or using Debian.
I love building 2.2.x security update packages, it takes only 5 minutes or so, over the 5 hours of latest 2.4.x packages.
Damn, I've tried to write the next paragraph to this response about 4 times... it's not working.
You have bloody well proven it. One woman comes in, says she is nervous about participating in a overly aggressive, male dominated forum, and you proceed to call her a flake and mentally unstable, nicely proving her very point.
I think this provides a good opportunity for XFree86 to cut out the middle-man, and go back to a stronger emphasis on providing our software directly to the end user as we did in the early days.
You just can't get 660 people in an irc channel and have it be generally usable.
Why are you, a man, more likely to know what experiences women face than the women themselves?
This seems like a solution in search of a problem.
I've worked on code for more projects than I can count, let alone remember.
Wow, I did not know they have computers in Iceland yet.
Should we point irc.debian.org at a service that is out of control?
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
Look beyond the decisions that were already made years ago.
Absence of evidence is not justification for inventing evidence.
The KDE people really impressed me. At one point one of them wanted to show me how you can write simple javascripts to create full KDE apps or dock applets. He didn't have it installed though, so he decided to download it from the net; there was a compatibility problem with the binary, so he pulled the code from CVS; he didn't want to wait for a long compile, so he decided to use the other processors on the LAN, but to do that he needed icecream; he pulled that from CVS... All this was done at a fast and furious pace, he had 10 or 12 shells running at the same time, was bouncing between them; other developers stuck their heads in: "which shell is patching...?" Development in action. It was cool.
The bullying that goes on in Debian is off-putting to a much greater percentage of women than men, and we must fix it if we want to increase the number of women who want to participate.
I've always wondered why so many threads in Debian ended up being flamewars about correct debating etiquette, style, and reason.
However amongst the non-developer population, Branden is the leader by a "significant" margin, a clear Schumacher choice amongst the non-DDs.
Interesting that 2 days after a member of a Debian irc channel complained of chronic harrassment, posting web logs as proof, the ops of a related Debian channel decided to adopt polices that would make this a violation of the channel policy, and laible to get you banned.
A new buildd system is a good thing at all, because there are several drawbacks that can be solved this way. Implementing a new security model is one of the drawbacks.
Thankfully, I have doogie to flirt with on IRC...
Microsoft Windows has a 100% Free subset too. I don't think having a 100% Free subset, alone, is worth much.
Acting like a gentleman is an antiquated notion, much like "acting like a lady."
After so many bugs one starts to see ghosts.
Ah, what I love about Debian is just how _rewarding_ it is to contribute.
Even a package with over 100 open important bugs might be well maintained.
OK, so after email spamming, IRC spamming, and referral spam, we now also have LiveJournal comment spam. Someone actually created a LiveJournal account for the sole purpose of creating comments with spam content.
I am willing to be a gentleman.
Say, Andrew, are you playing Devil's Advocate here, or are you just plain wrong?
Somebody suggested on IRC yesterday that we indeed should submit a new GR immediatly if this one should fail, as it probably would take another four years to get to vote on it.
Diversity will lead to better solutions for the users.
Bugs are bugs and we fix them but we do have to prioritize.
Beowulf clusters are irrelevant.
This is hopeless nonsense.
Does it make sense to talk about allowing people to shut up?
This feature is meant to be implemented seriously and not just for experiments. That takes some time.
<tbm> I still find it starnge that he didn't respond to my mails <Alfie> I think it's always a good idea to put the DPL in the blacklist. <Joy> quite ;) <tbm> yeah, otherwise you might get random requests to do stuff <tbm> actually, Joy, I need you to do something ;)
In my own case, I know that I'm a good coordinator by nature.
Well, I don't think I'm saying something pedantic or idiotic.
Delusions can be so comforting...
This time the complete distro is based on Debian/sid (even XFree) - optimal for HD Install!
Ahem. We grew out of the "..., or I quite!" argumentation a few years ago in Debian. dist-upgrade your mental pathways, or get no support. (Funny how our release logic applies to other things :)
Committees don't lead. Individuals lead.
Configuring properly or patching sources is mandatory whenever needed. -- Francesco P. Lovergine
If you don't shut down squid, inn, postgres, mysql properly (and wait for them to be terminated) you might as well just turn off the power - the result could be just as desastrous.
If I recall correctly, devfs went straight from being marked as EXPERIMENTAL to OBSOLETE in the kernel config.
Of course, I didn't mean that, which is why I didn't say it. What I meant to say, I said.
One question I have for you is: where were you the past several months when this was being discussed? You should have no reason to be shocked.
Basically, I admitted that Wichert and I suck.
There is no active m68k buildd which has less than 9G of hard disk space, which is even enough to build X.
Poor, poor horses. Even dead, they are never left alone.
<jejb> Although my eight way p66 still beats most modern UP machines
<jejb> They go up to 32 way, but the largest
I can build in my basement is 10 way
* neuro files a bug on jejb's basement.
* dannf reassigns the bug to jejb; who probably
just needs to throw out some other junk
<tausq> argh, /me accidentally rebooted his gateway instead of the pa box
I hate to burst your bubble, but IRC is not real life.
Debian looked like (and probably is) a boys club.
Hard to get any "good" news from vendor-sec, isnt it?
At Debconf @ Toronto, Bdale used grannies as examples of the worst kind of clueless users Debian should aim at. Susan happens to be a DD and a granny, so he stood corrected, but refused my proposal to use Bush as an example for that.
<Joey> I'm here, but I usually don't respond to 'hi Joey', 'are you here',
'ping', 'pong' and other crap, but respond to real issues if I
notice somebody's talking to me. /msg is highligted or mailed,
depending if I'm around or not.
<wiggy> </the manual of joey>
Modification is expressly prohibited by both groups, so unless there's something we're not seeing, that's about as non-free as you can get.
You know how people make fun of us geeks because we make up all that jargon? (WIMP, GUI, IDE, SCSI, ATAPI, RS232, ...) Well we do it because we need words to describe the things we're talking about.
Its pretty scary when you need a map just to navigate the documentation.
I mean, come on, Python is the language that will change the meaning of 7/3 because people had problems with integer division.
A key shared by several hundred people isn't very private.
As someone said @Debcof[Toronto], "Debian is a big, disfunctional family".
Hey, think positive! It would require so much effort to follow these flamewars that there will probably be fewer of them.
The fact that it breaks your package just shows how intrusive your patch really is.
Silly. Weird. More coffee.
Would improving ease-of-use make Debian usable by the dead?
It is horrible discrimination that my pet dog is not allowed to vote in the US presidential elections.
A leader can't really lead a project as huge as Debian wherever he/she wants to, unless the project agrees and supports it.
The attribute tables (and only the attribute tables) are labeled in Chinese or Japanese or... (excuse me, I cannot tell exactly).
I realised that if search engines failed to work one day, or I was unable to come up with good keywords, then I'd be up the creek without a paddle.
Sad to see that Debian is not about free software, even among Debian developers.
One of the difficulties in leading Debian is making sure you're going somewhere people want to go.
Debian isn't used only by hackers and Debian developers.
Ensure you don't install too many un-needed packages. Keep system services down to a minimum.
Let me get this straight: are you really comparing having female DDs to letting a dog vote? Like, one is as ridiculous as the other?
Support for the V-class isn't going to happen until some really masochistic person who has access to a V-class is, uh, challenged by this.
<wiggy> sendmail does funky things when it encounters CNAMEs <Mithrandir> s/when it encounters CNAMEs//
I prefer my fellow Debian brothers to develop rhinocerous hides.
YaST and 'improving user experience' are definitely parallel; they do not meet at any point, neither in past, present, or future.
It's not rewriting history if the changelog didn't document history in the first place.
These malformed changelog entries are definitely a part of the package's history.
All they need to say is "Orphaned package.". The rest is just confusing noise.
It's a bad license. It's a non-Free license. And it's OSI certified.
It's the iwj-perl. It strikes fear into people.
As Debian grows we'll have more posts and it will be harder to follow. That's probably unavoidable.
Who are those Slashdot people? They swept over like Mongol-Tartars.
This package contains more than one licence and they stand in conflict with each other.
I just spent two months adding 2.2 and m68k support to d-i. I'd be a bit upset if we didn't release with any 2.2 kernels because it's aesthetically pleasing.
Roughly estimated on the current release speed, this means you will be personally responsible for security fixes in kernel 2.2 until 2008 or 2009.
This is not a personals advertisement list. Move along.
Debian was the first modular distro by necessity.
I suppose that for large sites there are good reasons for using something more compact than bash to process each incoming email.
I don't think real means what you think it means.
I reassigned from Debian over two years ago since I was not happy with the speed of Debian releases. Since then, I have the impression things got even worse.
Debian and short release cycle are currently incompatible.
It just takes a different kind of mojo to get Debian releasing.
Regarding to popcon.debian.org we should then first drop hppa, mipsel and s390. There are apparently much less users than on m68k.
I checked the buildd logs and it appears that a mis-configure buildd is to blame. (The build was apparently started 1970-01-01...)
Is it bad when you are setting reminders to setup reminders?
Without an installer, we don't release.
We need some way to differentiate between "default value" and "value the user wants, which happens to be the default value".
Minorities are always annoying.
Beware the sysadmin with a hammer in his hand!
Don't drink water while reading Moray Allan's ITP messages.
And then there are the mechanics of swallowing a largely-undocumented 4,600-line patch which touches 60 files and tosses 30-odd rejects across 16 files.
Please do not be alarmed by anything you see or hear around you. We will be restoring normality just as soon as we are sure what is normal anyway.
Heh, the S/390 machines are named after Dinosaurs.
Don't tell Overfiend to get a grip. He'll start grabbing nearby dicks.
/me wonders if he can secure the rights and turn this channel
into a soap opera for geeks...
I can envision a few different types of hijacks.
Ii's kinda scary that a hobby will become a job. Does this mean I need to invent a new hobby? I guess sports wouldn't be bad.
Couldn't sleep tonight (sinus congestion), so decided to close a few makedev bugs. Well, I'm not sure 18 still counts as "a few", but...
Never expect IRC to carry information around.
Uploading a new source to just fix a non-important typo (somewhere in the docs or similar) is just insane.
Well, in medical science one of the standards for being "dead" is brain death; so maybe we should evaluate dropping the i386 port, too, on the grounds that it's a brain-dead processor design?
Debian becomes the nemisis of unjust licenses and non-free software!
Developers wear their hearts on their sleeves.
Painting my concerns as a "scare scenario" is just the kind of behavior that concerns me.
Can you do me a big big favour? Can you manually archive 130883? That bug receives regulary spam that doesn't allow the archive script to go over the 28 days.
I made my head smaller today.
Packages in sid should NOT have dependencies on packages available only in experimental! Ethereal maintainers, are you listening?
Context switches eat into those machines' cache, thus two compile jobs in parallel run N times slower than the same compile jobs in sequence.
Parallel compiler runs tend to be faster even on a UP machine with enough RAM, because the disk I/O is scheduled better.
I don't know if I have publically stated that I don't care about releases.
Developers who state openly that they do not care about releases are in violation of the Social Contract.
Who said RM is a lazy job without work?
Last time I tried the kernel pppoe my DSL was baned for a day.
To be consistent with the rest of the user interface, I strongly suggest to reimplement tetrinet in debconf, in order not to break the user experience.
But we should be happy about his mail, because it shows us that every distribution gets the users it deserves.
I think it's often better to use the most common compilation settings if you just want things to work rather than debugging applications and compilers.
Was this thread an early attempt at a 4-1 joke?
Making a fool of me? I don't think I need anybodys help with this.
<willy> E10k *still* uses rarp?! <willy> wtf? * willy would like to be able to welcome Sun to the 90s <willy> even my granny doesn't use rarp any more
Poor, poor horses. You'd thought everyone has forgotten them when they're six feet under, but their suffering won't stop.
Many Microsoft employees are active bloggers, but the practice has gotten at least one worker in trouble. Longtime contract worker Michael Hanscom was fired last year after his blog ran photos of Apple computers being delivered to Microsoft's main campus.
The only conspiracy plan I have is one to make SPI operational and effective.
Speaking for myself, I certainly find I'm able to be motivated by others.
Hold onto your shorts. It is going to get worse.
Please, if you want to make a point, do so, but stay close to the truth.
Let's try to get productive here people!
As far as I know, before yesterday the jigdo images were using a mixture of debian-installer versions that would not work.
Um, whatever happened to the fine art of trolling with wit and finesse?
How GNUstep people decide on the name is their problem. But whether they can corrupt name space or not is everyone's problem.
You actively *refuse* to understand what everybody tells you again and again.
I comprehend; I don't agree.
I believe it is unacceptable for an upgrade of a default install of woody to sarge to ask dpkg conffile questions.
Please don't crosspost flamebait to multiple debian mailing lists.
A m68k MAC with OC-3 ATM interface would be a cool hack IMO.
After installing a fresh sarge on a Sun (dual Xeon) [..]
Don't diss the people, people.
The Free and Open Source Communities are legendary for their debates over licensing.
I see Debian operating systems as being fully-capable platforms that can also serve as a foundation for more specific tasks.
Actually, I would like to hear how the candidates deal with a rant.
Wooohooo! The first time in Debian's history, a candidate was beaten by none of the above! That's how I'll enter the history books!
ICANN costs at least $5000 just to file your complaint.
There are programs without missing features. Mutt is one of them.
It's unfortunate Evolution & Co. don't have an embedded vim as editor.
At the worst, it will delay the release of sarge by weeks or months as we design and put together an new infastructure to support non-free drivers in the installer.
Linux's strength is that you can customize it the way you want it. Its weakness is that you have to customize it the way you want it.
Subtlety is fine. It might warrant a comment, though.
I seldom ask purely rhetorical questions.
d-i with the 2.6 kernel is so close I can taste it.
Me man. Ugg. Me no need science. Oog. Oog.
Microsoft is looking at it constant court costs and anti-trust fines as simply 'the cost of doing business' and has no intention of changing.
The format of the configuration file is described in the radiusclient library sources.
It seems that Vera, my co-worker, is capable of liking Lisp after all, if she's under enough medication.
I learned on Wednesday that my laptop's CD drive can survive being covered in water for hours. This is a nice ability, but not one I want to try again.
wow. I am a dork.
Any idea how to do that? That's beyond my kernel hacking skills.
Debian distributes the kernel. Debian does not distribute the hardware.
To maintain integrity with both itself, and with its' users, I see the migration away from non-free in all aspects as necessary.
In a perfect world, you face the visitors and don't turn your back on them.
I voted to keep non-free, but not to merge it into main.
Are we hackers or debaters?
Firmware is just another piece of junk^W^W^W data for me.
In a perfect world we would release every 6 month.
I should take a photograph of my stapler, the maker of which is "RAPESCO".
Let's just say that I am a smidgen tired of uploads that have not been tested one ioata.
FIFO is a named pipe, not a Disney character.
Good grief... more good news...
When it rains it pours, or something like that.
Do we really prefer talking to our lawyers than our users?
Releasing sarge without the Linux kernel is somewhat... er... awkward at best.
It's fascinating how often they just don't get around to notifying anyone.
Maybe the problem is that we have so many young, straight, lonely, and socially awkward male developers that potential women developers are, well, flirted to death?
Klingon function calls do not have 'parameters' -- they have 'arguments' -- and they ALWAYS WIN THEM.
I glanced at my inbox in mutt, and saw the C flags indicating CCed messages as svn up conflict indicators.
Twenty years. They went so fast. I wish I had taken the time to do something important.
<wiggy> [haydn;/org]-4# du -hs ldap <wiggy> 17G ldap <wiggy> holy fuck <wiggy> a 17gb ldap directory?? <weasel> you can probably expire 16.9gigs of logs again <weasel> like last time haydn was full
I suspect most samba developers are already technically insane... Of course, since many of them are Australians, you can't tell.
"hysterical" is actually an interesting word, it basically means "having a womb". Psychologists once thought it was something women did naturally.
For once I am ashamed to be a member of such a narrow minded, bigoted group.
This code has been duplicated in at least 5 extensions.
Female hackers are like unicorns. They're mythical.
Just because you say something, it is not necessarily reality.
As I recall, the concept of an "editor" virtual package has been discussed on debian-devel several times over the years, and each time rejected as useless.
My opinion is that binary-only firmware files in the current situation actually *help* free software because they let vendors ship free drivers.
If a significant amount of machines needs stuff from non-free for a working base install, then non-free becomes a part of Debian, no matter what The Debian Project chooses to claim about it.
Well, you're allowed to make bad choices, I suppose.
I'm stunned that this GR passed.
I'm beginning to wonder if Marillat didn't actually orphan all his packages, but instead hijacked Np237's brain.
Oh, people who call me morons get paid in kind.
Heh, the list archives seem to get more SPAM than the BTS these days.
Fonts are firmware. They are little programs to be loaded into the printer (especially true of Type 3 fonts).
Wtf... JoeyH with short hair and no beard?
Debian is about freedom, so we should
struggle to not distribute non-free items.
-- Jochen Voss
Debian is the distribution that distributes the largest chunk of non-free software.
Helen, please accept my apologies; we are not quite grown up enough to be able to interact with women yet.
The first newbie question I asked on a Debian list in 1997 was answered (quickly and accurately) by Susan Kleinman, one of the [few] female developers.
The GPL is a DFSG free license but a not a DFSG free document.
I find it amusing that we have people who were horrified how hard it would be to change a foundation document when that GR was proposed, and now we have another set horrified at how easy it is change one.
I think we should work on freeing the documatation instead of changing the social contract to match current non-free documents.
If people are not interested, they are not interested.
A stack of paper is not the preferred form for modification.
Yes, we should put the GPL itself in non-free, and all the rest of Debian in contrib.
How do you make a soundfile part of a text document?
I was amused the other day to find abiword, when I asked it to save a document as html, offering to inline the images in the document in base64 encoding. I'm not sure what browser can display that.
All the general resolution did was make the language explicit.
You are not interested in anything besides "back me or smack me"?
In short, I'm worth suing.
Squeak was abandoned by Apple because the entire Squeak team left Apple when Alan Kay did.
The best way to predict the future is to invent it.
Some People usually disagree with almost any statement of substance one can make.
Patents destroy the internet by shutting it down in anti-patent strikes.
I propose not proposing actions not requiring proposition in future.
I don't believe I have the moral authority to tell aj that he's wrong to follow the Social Contract more strictly than I would. Do you?
You won't be able to get information on the impact of some hypothetical change in the past.
SuSE probably wins on GB, but not on packages.
All software in Debian should have the freedom to use, study, modify and distribute.
The license accompanies the work, but is not part of the work.
In that situation, if you want things to change, you may have to consider altering your tactics somewhat.
Just because we can't clearly define something, that does not automatically imply that it doesn't exist.
>>> from animal import horse >>> horse.status() DEAD
You cannot censor my right to participate on debian-vote.
Or are you implying you are not a man? That would be entirely possible, I suppose. In which case I retract my statrement, you, as a woman, would obviously know what experiences women face in Debian.
Telling the truth does not make someone a cad.
I was pretty interested myself and followed board meeting until I realized my time is better spent fixing bugs.
Due to it's ever changing and rotating nature, it's about dead opposite the rock solid Debian distribution.
If you can't get along with eachother, well, tough; but there's no reason to bore the hell out of anyone else.
I don't seperate contrib and main via non-free.
It's nice if prominent people such as Joey Hess seem to agree with you... except if they don't.
So, essentially, Debian will remain 100% Free Software, except where it doesn't.
If I were dead, I'd be rolling over in my grave right about now. The founding goal of Debian was to create a better distribution that could help bring free software to the world. Let's get on with it, shall we?
<Joy> oh my god <Joy> has Nathanael Nerode missed a mail? <Joy> he replied to like every fucking mail in the big thread
You guys keep turning this into some kind of UN multilateral legal agreement.
We also have our fair share of people with an excess of the polar opposite of meekness.
That's one of the wonderful things about the U.S.A. Anyone can sue anyone for anything.
Today was the first time I heard that not having a backlog can be a serious problem.
We should not underestimate Longhorn.
We should hand the kernel hackers a copy of the GNOME release process.
My plan is to replace the morning can of Coke with a coffee.
If you can't follow the current volume, and are unwilling to give it enough time, then don't even try, and just unsubscribe.
<luca> apt-get install pedantic-vrms <luca> (is that redundant or extra scary?)
Never again will I write a piece of software for which configuration variables are case sensitive.
Free software extremists I can live with.
<surge> God damn Austrians... They dont get jokes,
and they're never there when you need them.
There has got to be a great joke out there, seeing the two of you discuss meekness. (about Branden Robinson and Craig Sanders)
I feel terrible that while trying to get more females interested about Debian I may have managed to scare off some of them with the flame I originated. I was just asking for candidate's input.
So, for example, I should be put through n-m again immediately because I haven't been doing regular maintenance of cruft or ifupdown?
I have no interest in doing more work than I absolutely have to.
Quick-fixing one problem often leads to a new one.
If you can't prove something, that doesn't mean you should lower the standards for proof, it means that you can't prove it.
Please create a new mailing list: debian-braindead-flamewars-about-licensing-non-issues
I shall not, however, try and dig a hole next to yours out in the sand.
Psychology and sociology are fuzzy "sciences" for the most part, where very little is proven.
I can "donate" around 28.000 SPAMs and 8700 viruses...
You do of course realise that -devel without the flamewars would consist purely of people sending "unsubscribe" requests to the wrong place and spam, right?
Meekness isn't harmful, nor does it ever justify your bullying.
Posting to debian lists is like hitting your head against a brick wall. It feels good when you stop.
I find it funny to think that James wouldn't have noticed the personal attacks or stay indifferent to them. Just because he does not respond to personal attacks does not mean he would be immune to them.
The channel is called #debian for a reason; it's not called #debian-flirt or #horny-debian-geeks. #debian is about user questions and communication related to Debian; if you want to flirt, don't do it on #debian because you're off-topic.
Writing only short messages, reduces the probability of typos.
I just played around with GIMP and it looked like it could be nice if done by someone experienced.
You're confusing science with math. Science uses math as a tool of thought, but they are very different.
My suffering in this case was mostly caused by your posting, so probably the best you could do to ease my pain would be to stop contributing to this thread.
Your mail fairly much appears to say nothing.
# If you have the "driftnet" program installed, webcollage can display a # collage of images sniffed off your local ethernet, instead of pulled out # of search engines: in that way, your screensaver can display the images # that your co-workers are downloading!
I'll try to give everyone something else to discuss besides DFSG and license issues.
Last I looked, Debian's world domination plan did not include censorship.
I don't think having a 100% Free subset, alone, is worth much.
That sounds like NetBSD's attitude, and in my not-so-humble opinion, it's one of the reasons why the *BSD's became irrelevant.
House rule: anybody who wishes to distinguish between software and documentation must provide a method for distinguishing between software and documentation.
I suspect the costs and inefficiencies that would be introduced by skewing the release cycle on a per-architecture basis would hurt us more than help us.
Debian stable might not be known for short release cycles, but it's still known for high quality packages and easy upgrades.
Posting to debian lists is like hitting your head against a brick wall.
<ifvoid> ah <ifvoid> a bug
Are these bugs which have existed for a while, or does ethereal continue to introduce new overflows with every new dissector?
The GPL is good enough for pretty much anything.
Wouldn't it be nice to not call people "fuckheads" just because their choice of license doesn't please you?
SUSE Linux originates in Germany, unlike most of the other Linux distributions, which have homes in North America. SUSE therefore contains a few Germanic touches, such as German text in comments inside configuration files.
Not only Debian admins/users should be protected from the evil beast.
I think we need to start saying just "MIT" or "MIT/old X11". We can't really say "MIT/X11" any more. Much like you can't say "BSD license" any more.
What I want to avoid is creating a machine, lovingly set it up exactly how it needs to be, then have some yahoo say "hey, this YaST thing will help me out" and demolish the work I've done.
From tests conducted at an observatory overlooking the skies of Los Angeles, researchers have concluded from the gathered data that the sky is indeed red.
I volunteered to write the d-i support so that I didn't have to mess with boot-floppies.
I'm no longer at the age where I think "my idea is the only possible solution", and although I'm not a fan of testing freezing testing is definitely a possible way towards a new stable release.
Statistics and numbers in general can be thrown any which way to serve the purpose of the writer.
Even servers sometimes require recent software.
<Sir_Ahzz> /me wonders if he can secure the rights and turn this
channel into a soap opera for geeks...
<elmo> Sir_Ahzz: It would be derided as being entirely unrealistic
May I gently remind you that our country just closed a public newspaper in Iraq?
<liiwi> Never expect IRC to carry information around <Overfiend> Unless Manoj is in the channel
People are happy to argue for dropping "doorstop architectures" or "dead platforms" to get us to a release, but there's no real evidence that any of the existing ports meet objective criteria that would justify excluding them from the release.
Sometimes, wasting time is nice.
The most dramatic thing from my point of view is that SuSe, Red Hat, Mandrake and community based Debian all got together to formulate a common reply. This is the BEST news we could ever hope for - a common on unified front - no forking when it comes to security.
Nobody said it. That's what makes it "de facto".
There's obviously a difference; stare at a circuit board. Now stare at www.kernel.org.
Microsoft has 2 critical vulnerabilities which they have known about for 209 days. Another one they've know about for 182 days. I don't know of any open source security holes which have sat for 209 days!
If the blobs were *BSD-licensed*, then your argument would be a lot more convincing.
Nothing will become more convincing by repeating it again and again in a public forum.
Since it is commercially benefical for vendors to detach the firmware from their hardware, we will see an increasing number of such drivers in the future.
I think the people who keep saying "Most people will need this firmware!" are smoking crack or something.
Perhaps I'm right, perhaps I'm wrong - the future will show.
When it's burned into hardware, it doesn't matter what the license is, because you can't change it without a soldering iron. When it's software, it's worthwhile to have it under a free software license.
My English is broken. Could please somebody from Oxbridge or Camford try to repair it.
I'm beginning to see a pattern: when non-free stuff is found, some people go "Oh dear -- we must remove that." Some people go "Well, *this* non-free stuff is *so important* that we should keep it in main, because Debian will be *useless* without it, and besides, it shouldn't have to follow the DFSG because it's in thus-and-such a category."
Fortunately some of that work is already done which should save you a couple of years of effort.
Please keep us IRC-users in mind: The slim one has not enough space for the full name and the nick, I'm afraid.
Popularity or principles; your choice. I know which I'd choose.
A formal hardware definition most definitely is software, empirically so when such a definition can be compiled and put into real hardware.
Oh no! Debian isn't installable on my toaster! Debian is *violating the Social Contract*!
How many times are you going to resign?
We could tar and feather the old treasurer at some future conference, but that won't make anything better.
It's always a bad idea to get people to focus on doing things they're bad at at the expense of things they're good at.
Software: That which isn't hardware.
Failing to provide non-free firmware in Debian will not reduce the quantity of firmware in the world.
Yes, people try very hard to be able to call their software "GPL" without actually using the GPL.
Maybe the release manager was being deceptive.
If you can't choose what you buy, you have much bigger problems, well beyond Debian's ability to deal with.
A command doing something else than you expected is worse than "command not found".
Fonts are firmware.
If something can become non-free because someone writes a free editor to edit it, I do not think it was free in the first place.
Software that violates the GPL isn't distributable. It can't even go in non-free.
The reason I can maintain that the title was correct when the issue was voted was that, unlike you, I am not telepathic.
I don't know if you're confusing yourself, but you're certainly confusing me.
If nothing is said about it, then it is not allowed.
Get a grip yourself, Schulze.
Policy decisions always make someone unhappy.
I've unsubscribed from all Debian lists and except for some activity in the BTS caused by both using Debian and maintaining some backports I'll be quiet until Debian 3.1 is released and when I'll check whether my predictions were right or wrong.
Luckily, XFS makes ReiserFS irrelevant.
We pledge to keep Debian 100% Free Software, not read the DFSG as narrowly as possible.
Requiring that the name stay the same is non-free. Requiring that the credits remain visible when a non-derived front-end is used is non-free.
I am walking with an extra cell phone battery in case McNealy or Schwartz decide to call me up over the weekend to discuss potential agreements.
I am rather concerned that we have developers who are anxious to express concern over others supposedly having disregard for honesty and truthfulness without actually having carefully read the basic texts that we are discussing.
Please let us in to this telepathic device you have with you.
Flame wars can be quite fun to read, if they're waged by intelligent people.
Not voting is holding an opinion that the vote isn't worth yours, and that you agree with whichever side wins.
That ship has sailed and now we'll be dumping all the GFDL docs out of Debian.
You have no points. All you have are lies. Generally very tiresome ones.
Ironically, the essay "Free Software Needs Free Documentation" is included as an Invariant Section in the libc documentation!
After all, I am still convinced that the vote was a minor editorial clarificatrion of what the SC has always meant.
What's stopping you from doing all your music in some XML format, anyway?
Some people feel that the FSF is violating its own definition of freedom with the GFDL, and that Free Software needs free documentation.
The people who did not vote should not be trying to pin the blame of their apathy on any and everyone else in spitting distance.
Christoph has a degree in theology, so maybe he knows something about RMS that we don't.
Now that the Knights Lunar have proved that they are Holier Than Stallman, can they just get on with the job of killing Debian quickly?
You, Sir, are treading on thin ice.
Aieeeeieee! I'm trapped in a Franz Kafka novel! Help!
I have little tact for people who accuse me of dishosty, and deceptive advertizing.
Really smart people with reasonable funding can do just about anything that doesn't violate too many of Newton's Laws!"
Since you have shown yourself to be an unprincipled cad, the notion of you lecturing decent people about ethics is ironic in the extreme.
I just think you are quibbling in hid sight because you do not like the vote results.
Eat shit and die, you worthless low-life verminous bag of pus.
Could the personal attacks please be toned down?
I'm sorry, but you can't just wait until the issue goes away.
At least at one point, the size of the patch file for the Debian PAM package was larger than actual tar.gz file of the original unmodified sources.
My contention is that action is better than no action.
I have licensing rights to all of reiserfs in all versions.
This is off-topic, but from my limited (i.e. two years) experience "no school" might mean more time for Debian, but "marriage" usually doesn't. You have been deceived.
Given that his previous project was named after his SO, I don't think Mrs. Murdock will be overly happy with your idea of starting a /new/ one.
I find Debian's aggressive behavior toward myself, and especially Richard Stallman and his GFDL, to be inappropriate and ungrateful, but I also understand that Debian is striving to define its morality, and that much of the world shares its rather asian attitude towards whether it is acceptable to not credit others for their contributions to science.
Desperate times require desperate measures.
Can you please all stop being so damn hostile to each other?
Rewrite logging was turned on for lists.debian.org. In a short time, it had produced a >2g file.
Hm, I didn't want to imply that I expected everything would become better as soon as I leave.
<niklaus> Doesn't Debian have a Modula 2 compiler <Tolimar> niklaus: Sue it has, I think it is called mocka. <Tolimar> +r <OUTsider> Sue it... lol :P <OUTsider> nice typo
Not removing LaTeX because you've got a broken IDE connector is one of the most brilliant idea I've seen in decades. One would be surprised by the amount of people owning a portable with a broken IDE connector who use LaTeX.
We work like jugglers. The trick is not to let a ball (=task) hit the ground.
Frankly I think you should worry more about reiser4 destroying your home directory than about such artificially constructed scenarios....
<dansan> Mozilla doesn't just try to be a browser though, they want to be the
Internet technology or something of that sort... kinda like Emacs...
I'd rather go with a solar cell on top of the batch to demonstrate the technical advance of my batch and fight them with my nuclear powered laser sword if they do not care.
The idea that "glue code" makes it ok to combine GPL-covered code with non-free code has no basis in the GPL.
Included in the fun is watching me answer technical questions with "Uh, I don't know" and "It's still early". I'll be largely addressing the organizational elements and well as purpose. There'll likely be some "Uh, I don't know" and "It's still early" there too, but I have a much stronger grasp on this than the version of vi to be included for example.
Sorry for the delay, during the last weeks I was very busy converting tea into theorems. Maybe I should have used coffee instead.
You're basically trading the interest of 30 million people against that of 1 billion.
If I were a DD, I would second it to get it on the ballot -- because I think it's a clear proposal worth voting on -- and then I would vote against it because I think it's the wrong way to go.
If I would have known before that it doesn't include any decent usable documentation explaining how to make it use the framebuffer/directfb in graphics mode instead of only X11 I wouldn't have bothered downloading it.
Putting firmware in in "contrib" or "non-free" IS the only solution.
A problem with dpkg development is that it attracts a lot of people who insist on a specific feature or even a specific implementation of a feature when it doesn't make sense.
The question was, why is calling Taiwan "Taiwan" controversial?
Personally, I'd rather have some spam make it onto the list than block any valid emails.
One simply has to realize that country names in English and French are written using imaginary en_UN and fr_UN locales, and can be translated to any language (including common English and French, for those who do not speak *_UN variants).
Free software extremists I can live with. But this is too much. I will resign from this project in two weeks time.
Resistance is futile, you will be confused!
If I have to choose between insulting 30 milion or making 1 billion a bit unhappy, I would definitely choose to insult nobody.
How is "periodic-exec-daemon" more generic than "cron"?
I do not really see where is the interest of 1 billion people when we maintain strict compliance to a standard that we know has no single justification.
When we can't use the word "Viagra" in normal conversation, the spammers have already won. -- Evan Prodromou
* libpng2 no libpng3 no why ? because no yes no yes no yes bullshit no yes no yes no yes stop ? no when someday beep beep beep beep (Closes: #157011)
How many bits could Mandrake chuck if Mandrake could chuck bits?
If this is your attitude, then I shall resign this project. I do not wish to be associated with people who're actively working towards the independence of Taiwan.
SPI is a job.
Apart from that, the coffee pot is almost empty. That means I've been drinking almost a litre of coffee in just over an hour. Dunno how that's possible, I'm not doing any sysadminning...
After everything, Xu quits Debian because of *nationalism*! Excuse me now as I go away and laugh my ass off.
You suck. I mean, have you ever coded a serious web application using your worthless little class? If you had, you'd rather earlier than not encountered a case that required more than one submit button per form.
Only software has source. Numbers and strings are not software.
Had you made your own list of locations from scratch there would be no complaint by me. However, if you use the iso name for every location except that of Taiwan, then I do have a problem with that.
What you don't ask, you don't get.
We do the community no favors by encouraging authors to misunderstand copyright, particularly through the ritualistic duplication of old errors.
If your action is to change a list from the ISO/UN in a way that appears to appease the people in favour of independence, then I have no choice but to resign from this project.
<Kamion> There's one common coding mistake that produces
infinite loops on unsigned char machines, e.g.
<willy> Kamion: the while(char c = getchar() != -1) { ... } favourite?
I hate apps that try to outsmart me.
Whether I find it acceptable is no longer relevant as it is already too late for me to back out of this process.
Spending a whole evening talking english with someone I never meet before and that I knew only via email makes me think I am not *totally nerd*. Just a little bit.
We will not drop a proposal simply because you disagree with it.
Don't think in terms of just one architecture; your job as maintainer doesn't end when you get the stuff into the autobuilder system, it ends when everything's in unstable and working correctly for all architectures.
Ok, I admit it. I was just a front-man for the real fathers of Linux, the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus.
If I am not allowed to have a holy cow, I shall quit the project.
Something seems wrong today. Email took less than 10 minutes this morning. Reading web sites took less than 10. Has everyone died or something?
SPF is a solution looking for a problem.
In my case it is a rather trivial Perl module (I18N::AcceptLanguage), to write it was probably less time consuming than this discussion.
That is a stinker.
Gah, xterm has gotten too smart for its own good. It overrides its own resources depending on locale-environment settings.
Debian users learnt about the concept of periodic execution by using cron!
There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies. And the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies.
I am not one of those folks and I do not speak for them.
Oh, I think at some point people would be ashamed of their lack of due diligence, and stop making everyone else work harder to redo their own lack of a modicum of effort to educate themselves on issues that rate a GR.
3.5% of messages or so that are sent to a list actually make it to the list.
At this point I was still thinking he might be a spy from SCO, but if he was, SCO was not getting its money's worth.
How retro.. It takes minutes before something I type shows up.
You have privileged access to insider information that nobody else has, and you are asking everybody else to act in *absence* of that insider information.
It seems like kind-of a stupid question, and it hadn't been asked. Pretty amazing I didn't answer it, hey?
I agree, of course, that Herbert should have patched the driver to remove the usually-unnecessary firmware rather than just removing the driver.
Miguel's response I would summarize as "any software could infringe patents, so we should ignore patents until they become an issue, then work around."
Welcome to the real world.
If our users are never told how this great software came about, they won't understand that we need the freedom to continue making it.
P.P.P.S. Please don't quote the P.P.S. outside of d-p.
Those technologies are not invented by and driven forward by _the single most powerful and open-source-hostile company in the tech industry_.
You are forcing everyone else's votes to be based on imperfect information.
First, prove that the blob is not the prefered form of modification. Second, prove that the blob is executed on the host hardware plattform.
Miguel uses the Gnumeric analogy, of moving forward and ignoring the hard problems for a while rather than letting them slow you down. Great advice for technical problems.
In today's lunatic world, there is no way to write a complex or interesting piece of software without possibly infringing someone's patents.
I'm not going to follow arguments that are clearly erroneous.
I think a good programmer can write a 12,000 line kernel in a year.
Not that that statement has any particular relevance to the problem at hand, or that it's necessarily true...
Being a mathematician, I feel unacceptable to support a statement I do not hold for true.
If Novell wants to use Mono that's great. But GNOME should not, and neither should any of the important desktop apps.
Did you even bother reading the email you're replying to?
Tmda challenge-response is not an effective solution against SPAM.
The datestamp are displayed using a textual representation instead of something more obscure (such as the number of nanoseconds since the Tasty Freeze guy drove by).
There seems to be some opinion that the social contract forbids the release policy desired by the people wishing to overrule the delegate in question.
Anthony is not the one who decides whether or not a GR overrides a decision he has made.
Back to the drawing board!
If you want to question other people's actions, you need to expect your own to be questioned likewise.
You seem to claim Gnome 2.6 is too broken for unstable because it is not yet in unstable.
We can shut down the mailing lists!
Answering FUD only trashes your carpal tunnels and gives the FUDder more attention.
If you continue to focus on me, and continue to ignore Debian, you'll end up like the dog with the bone.
Are you deliberately using both "software" and "programs", and do you therefore mean different things by them? Could you please define them?
I get damn near as many bogus bounces as spams.
Both automaticaly send out unsollicited messages to innocent 3rd parties. That's called spamming in my dictionary.
All my kernel are belong to Herbert.
> Or are you saying no one in Debian is allowed to have any "holy cows"? If I am not allowed to have a holy cow, I shall quit the project.
Think of x86_64 as i786.
It's his cross to bear, not Debian's.
This is worrying, but not insurmountable.
So? I don't reply to Viagra spam either.
You are officially a funny guy.
I think you just gave Santiago Vila an orgasm.
And anybody who thinks that was a flamewar... good grief, grow a skin. It was downright civil.
Thanks for this stunning display of the "...or I quit!" mentality. Do come back at least as often as Adrian Bunk and keep reminding us of it.
Since when is giving two week's notice worthy of jeering?
We're not "RMS groupies".
Should we help this research group from Microsoft, Austria, or not?
Personally I hate forums, but unfortunatelly people love them.
My package is my castel, oh how wonderful.
For Debian to be "100% Free Software", it first must be "100% Software", right?
Editors can change the meaning of the texts they edit.
There is no way I can just use common sense anymore.
That's the whole problem: not all of us are mathematicians.
ACHTUNG! Joey may actually be a spider-human hybrid.
Did I mention recently that I love the Debian tools?
I must say that I am Romania (that is Eastern Europe in case somebody doesn't know).
I am willing to trust that people implementing the release policies are reasonably competent
With all due respect, but waiting for the tech-ctte in order to *speed up* the release of sarge looks like a flakey plan to me, given the committee's track record in the last couple of years.
<Overfiend> "PHP 5! Now with Zend-enhanced multicrashing!" <Overfiend> "Reserve your copy today1" <broonie> Exploits in half the time!
Is anyone alive, or are you all enjoying yourselves in Brazil?
Impressive, its amazing how just getting some artwork done with the project name on can turn from just being debian with fewer packages to actually feeling like a proper OS and not just a selection of certain packages.
It just booted up into CDE, and my eyes were assailed.
I really like the Enlightenment Desktop, but it doesn't seem to be developed any longer. Is E still being worked on? [..] Of course, it's rumored that "E17" will be the official front-end to GNU/Hurd (with a corresponding release schedule), and may incorporate elements of Duke Nukem Forever.
I tend to be more of an initiator than a sustainer.
Why is quitting worthy of jeering then?
It's more like the usual harassment of Joy for speaking his mind.
I'm here at DebConf4 and I've had some firm feedback that I am not as funny as I think I am.
Why not work around problems in obsolete tools by modernizing the input?
I've heard comments such that "Pfeh, Debian is just getting rewritten to Python", but I've never extrapolated that Debian is being ported to C.
Personally, I think your responses in this thread provide a pretty good example of why people don't need more than 24 hours to decide it's not worth trying to have a rational conversation to change people's minds on Debian lists.
Its a lot quicker in C than in shell.
There is a difference between Free Software and plagiarizable software.
I think Debian is just being ported everywhere.
Blast, which evil mind chose to hide documentation in /usr/share/doc/ ?
I would really like Debian to understand the difference between credits and ads.
Trying to do anything d-i release related at debconf was a collossal mistake. I have not particularly enjoyed myself here or been particularly engaged because I have to crawl into a hole to get a d-i release out. This bites.
Fuzzy lines in a license are not a new thing.
If there are no credits, the prohibition on removing credits is null.
<infinity> Land line: 07 4055 2619, Mobile (usually my girlfriend
is carrying it): 04 0063 7386.
<infinity> La la la!
<infinity> I'm a tab-deficient retard!
<infinity> <cough>
You seem to enjoy working against free software.
Debian wants software to be both free and plagiarizable. XFree86 and I want our software to be free but not plagiarizable.
It's definitely very non-free to try to force people to look at the credits.
Common sense is what tells you that the world is flat.
You seem to understand the difference between modification and plagiarism as plagiarism is a modification that you dislike because it doesn't praise you enough.
Threads on debian-user don't mean a damn thing.
I assume that cyclic Build-Depends are acceptable in Debian.
Why did you HACK into my computer with this GNU/Linux stuff??
The buildd admins must be incompetent or on crack.
The difference between macromedia player and swf-player is between working vs. inexistant on non-x86 though.
Please realise that there is nothing more frustrating than sending messages into a black hole.
So, just in this very moment you made Reiser4 undistributable with Linux kernel by making it GPL incompatible. What an achievement!
"Clearifications" are modifications to the license and thereof not relevant and incompatible to GPL.
There is truth to this, let me acknowledge it.
I phrased that so poorly it's almost funny.
I'm shocked, that I need to mention most of these points on my list.
IBM holds *so* many software patents (all invalid on their faces, of course) that if it decided to enforce them, and was successful, most of Debian would likely have to be removed.
Ok, that concern was invalid. Time for open the window and get some coffeine.
SourceForge - too many eggs in a basket
Random credits are the elegant answer.
Maybe if you'd watch more television instead of trying to be a lawyer this thread could have died long ago.
After meeting you all at debconf now I need 2 1/2 weeks to recover...
Displaying only the distro name at boot time is morally wrong.
How can you expect to reach consensus when some people made the DFSG a religion.
This is a stupid idea, and you're a stupid person for suggesting it.
As I said, shutup and talk with a lawyer.
I look forward to your entertaining contributions to the Debian trademark discussions when the trademark committee reports.
I think it's odd that they [US Congress] think it's your God-given right to reverse-engineer your car, but not your XBox.
Let them win, I don't care. This is not a race.
But, it eats your CPU, your RAM, your disk space, your bologna sandwich, and, if you're not careful, your small pets.
How is "periodic-exec-daemon" more generic than "cron"? I suspect that most Debian users learnt about the concept of periodic execution by using cron!!!
Nobody on a desert island can be requested to do anything.
Please, try not to give such black-and-white responses.
I've broken those links before, and nobody complained. I guess it's not surprising that people are willing to sacrifice random links in random old editions of the weekly news.
I don't think that DFSG-free is a superset of FSF-free.
There is only one thing more useless and annoying than a bug or list archive that does not contain the correct mail addresses, and that's one where snippets of perl code have been destroyed by mindless obliteration of strings containing @ signs.
Maybe one should develop a secure commit protocol.
What if Orkut evolves into the Internet's address book, much as Google has evolved into the Internet's memory?
He aims at world domination while I just aim at getting some sleep tonight.
In my opinion, the conservative rules for updates to stable are a feature, one that should not be touched, ever.
I would not like to vote on a speculation.
The ambiguity makes it impossible for tools to behave intelligently.
I object to the Release Manager's decision of choosing a military-related term ("sarge") for the next release of Debian.
Please don't top-post, it makes the baby Jesus cry.
If you think letting the leader handle this is the right solution, why would you still want to second this inflammatory general resolution?
There's still time; after all, as long as we don't get rid of woody, we can still rename it, can't we?
It's funny how an addict's mind works.
We can't know what the ftp-masters believe, since they refuse to communicate.
Hey, I don't mind if you find my petition ridiculous, but don't put Toy Story at the same level as Tolkien's work ok?
Whatever happened to my decentralized net with no single point of failure?
Most teams actually communicate with each other.
Please don't SuperCite outgoing email. It is difficult to follow.
It's a good thing these aggressive spam-dropping policies don't cause any collateral damage!
I have a concept of stable version and development version.
Filesystem users want conservative release management.
Another part of the problem was, that people were sitting in the back, showing visitors their back, and one showed them (while wearing a to short shirt and bending forwards to hack on his notebook) parts of his body, which didn't saw the sun recently.
Well, perhaps it should be made perfectly clear before LinuxTag that people who are not on shift should not be inside of the booth.
Is anyone else having a "bowl of petunias" moment right about now?
If recent experience has shown us anything, it's that votes HURT Debian.
I don't think you can really overrule a future decision.
P.P.S.: Don't you hate to have to explain your point to avoid unneeded
flamage when you already think that your point was crystal clear?
Why on earth is it soooo difficult to have 'mplayer' in Debian?
Perhaps we should just take the lack of a response as their response?
I apologise for bringing up things of the past.
After all, communication should be in the foreground and not other people's asses, breasts, clothing style, hair style or beards. Lets try to keep it that way.
Do Debian Swirl costumes look as sexy as BSD Daemon costumes?
The perfect is the enemy of the good.
I don't say it is not funny, but if you really need to play games on a mailing list, use debian-curiosa or something like that, please.
It is sad that the only way to avoid sales calls is to make yourself unavailable to most people.
NON! FREE! NON! FREE! Because Linux is what you use until you grow up and have enough money to pay Microsoft license fees.
Refusal to act is a decision and a rejection.
Okay, so I request LinuxTag to organize a girlfriend for every geek before LinuxTag starts. This way they don't need to.. well... This way they might don't need to... well... at least in this way, they will get slapped in their face by their girlfriend, if they stare at other women's breasts.
It really sucks that we reached this point.
This would, of course, be the most Unix-like way of doing things - provide an incredibly powerful array of tools for solving problems, but don't go 1/200th of an inch towards making them do the right thing by default.
Perhaps I should start a society for victims of bookstore molestation.
Simply not acting is not a refusal to act, it's just a lack of activity.
If the uptime gets to high, my brain doesn't work very reliable.
<dilinger> Wow, I haven't gotten any spam from @debian.org addresses
in the past 3 days
<dilinger> That's some kind of record
* pasc wonders if that was the most useless conversation in here
ever and goes back to work
You cannot write a GR to order somebody to do something.
Pseudo-tradmark restrictions in copyright licenses routinely prohibit perfectly reasonable things which are simply allowed under trademark law.
The Open Source and Free Software communities are *all about* licensing.
The bowl of petunias' only line in the book is "Oh no, not again".
Free software, and the DFSG, are entirely compatible with aggressive and restrictive enforcement of traditional trademark law.
Or maybe I'm reading you backwards - too many negatives in one sentence for me after a long day.
<daniels> It's sexy <fabbione> If daniels says that it's sexy, it must be pure braindamage crap
These people are generally more interested in being told that their fonts look better than they are in having fonts that look better.
When you accused me of interpreting official documents "pedanticaly", I wondered what you meant exactly with being pedantic.
If anyone thinks Debian in general is good at communication, they're deluded.
Refusal to act is a decision to not act.
If the person in charge doesn't act, someone else must be allowed to do it.
I won't even consider this proposal until you or someone else explains to me why we should use the voting system to decide an issue like this.
In my eyes, voting on technical issues is still better than no explicit decision at all.
The people actualy putting amd64 on hold are ftpmasters. And I don't think he can include any discussions with ftpmasters since all the mail sent to them on this issue made its way into /dev/null.
If anyone thinks this GR will actually achieve anything positive, they're mistaken.
SCO is like a toe fungus.
I just realised that if you try to write 'fsfe' (3733) in a program for writing sms with T9 active, you get the word 'free'. I never noticed that before.
Ah, but James is the catchall-address for problems in Debian, anyway.
Have you ever used the setup you're advocating?
It doesn't seem to make a damn but of sense either, has anyone got any justification for this ugliness?
Every minute spent thinking of this fuckwit makes me lose one month of life.
Out of personal experience, I can say that it was easier talking to him *before* having met him. Afterwards, he was just calling me names...
We don't seem to fear the laughter of others when it comes to AMD64 support.
If anyone thinks that trying to decide technical issues through voting is a good idea, I pity them.
When Nerode is on your side, you know you're doing something wrong.
MySQL is a terrible non-SQL compliant 'database' which barely has ACID. We don't discourage linking against it for these reasons.
<vomjom> Anyone know if PHP5 is currently being packaged? * Overfiend laughs at vomjom
You seem to be answering a question I'm not asking.
Votes don't happen in a vacuum. If people are unaware of the implications and consequences of their votes they shouldn't be voting, sincerely or otherwise.
If a fork is what is needed to get a useable Debian-based distribution, then a fork is necessary.
It is not abuse of the process for the project as a whole to decide that it disagrees with a decision that some part of the project has made.
If you are communicating with others in your circle of friends, you should speak the same language.
We don't need another GR, we have to prepare a new release.
Please accept that most people doesn't like to get private communication cited in public.
Everything has bugs, except TeX.
I have been told that debian is not a democracy. It just votes sometimes.
Vaporware can do anything.
Releasing a CVS snapshot is likely to be far more trouble than it's worth.
If anyone thinks that abusing debian-devel-announce or GRs is the best (or indeed "only") way to force through their pet issue, they're very much mistaken.
I was going to write a piece about Debian flamewars, but I came to think that it'd be useless.
I'd say the process is working okayish, but it's only because of James.
I wonder why the NM queue is not handled in FIFO mode.
I believe anyone proposing, and possibly seconding such a resolution should have the self-respect to resign themselves if it fails.
In my egotistical opinion, most people's C programs should be indented six feet downward and covered with dirt.
Don't you know that using facts in this discussion is deprecated?
Tell upstream that their versioning scheme does not make sense.
Not every package with a RC bug has to be fixed and released with sarge.
Now the Debian project is apparently reduced to using the voting system to decide about issues like what architectures to include in the next release.
We make decisions based on technical merits.
Obviously, flaming people whose cooperation you need doesn't necessarily speak volumes for your ability to cooperate in the project, but that's a separate issue...
I've filed bugs that haven't see any communication in over 4 years.
You want a release manager who is a mere rubber stamp for a large group of people who can't ever agree on anything unless beating each other on the head with a GR? And you think this shall somehow result in the best OS in the world? What planet do you come from?
Did you read what you're replying to?
Please do not interpret a vote in favor of an option as support to an unrelated thesis. This defeat sincere voting.
It is technically allowed. If you try to do it, you will discover that it is a monumentally bad idea.
You're talking out of your anus.
Hopefully the desire to release immediately has not thrown every other consideration out of the window, like standards conformance, quality, and policy compliance, and so on, that makes Debian a desirable OS.
Maybe you're unaware that the debian-installer project has created an installer for Debian that does full hardware detection (except X).
Whatever happens to Debian every few months, I don't know, but it surely sucks.
I don't let anyone tell me what I have to say or to do (or not).
Er, before heading down this road, I think you should attempt an objective demonstration that we seem to give a damn about wasting archive resources in the first place.
Anyone who thinks I didn't try hard enough has a flame war with their name on it.
That text is explicitly non-normative.
That doesn't make sense to me. An image viewer isn't useful without images, an interpreter isn't useful without scripts, nor is a library useful without some program that links to it.
That's ok actually, my port of Debian to the abacus is going pretty well. Does anyone know what I need to do to get the ftpmasters to include it in the archive?
I would be a bigger fool when I let people abuse my donated service against myself.
I am not asserting that we don't give a damn; I invited you to demonstrate that we do.
I don't think that the basis for a package's inclusion in main should be the packaging in main of appropriate content.
I encourage you to encourage them.
It's quite interesting to note that there is no agreement at all among the amd64 porters whether the port should (in their opinion) be included in sarge or not.
When I was but an egg in the Debian Project, back in early 1998, I *asked* where xtrs should go.
New marketing slogan: SPI. Consistently inconsistent since 1997.
devfs went straight from being an experimental feature to being deprecated, so I'm not sure who decided to make it official in Debian.
I will not be blackmailed into doing things for people who have public tantrums to try and force stuff through.
The discussion on the debian-devel has largely conflagrated into a flame-fest of near-epic proportions.
the XFree86 leader decided that GPL compatibility was unimportant to customers and developers, ignoring all those who tried to explain otherwise. Customers and developers got fed up, established a competing fork, and switched en mass. In the end, the customers and developers got GPL compatibility, just as they demanded.
Companies that require certification are generally extremely clueless.
There's a difference between being paid to do Debian developer stuff and becoming a Debian developer to get paid.
If someone wants to make "GNOME for geeks" then great. Not that I think this particular project will succeed, but anyone is welcome to try.
Why do you insist on repeatedly trolling about this subject, instead of actually doing something about it?
Don't fuck up my mail.
If you are trying to keep this package out of sarge, please file an RC bug first with the explanation of what problems it has. Otherwise, the package could get back in when we weren't looking.
Debian is not an island with no interaction with other systems.
Find a better alternative. One which actually sucks less, rather than differently.
So you want to take over the package? Look at its changelog first.
Currently, this discussion is nothing but vapor.
Oh wow, a bastard child of the MIT and 4-clause BSD licenses. Somebody was on the really good crack when they did that.
<Joey> aj: We cannot support both potato and woody
<Joey> supporting 17 architectures... I don't want to think about that...
<aj> Joey: so does that mean you'll be supporting none, or a select "n"?
If the latter, which?
<Joey> aj: The current answer would be: no potato updates, and no woody
updates, probably
[Mon Apr 29 2002 (two days before the designated release date)]
So, for me, this GR wouldn't conflict with the constitution, but I doubt very much that this draft is part of solving our problems.
None of the open source desktop projects will _ever_ depend on ReiserFS or similar features.
Even a CEO might smell a rat if two DDs present Debian certificates of radically different appearance.
I have a wonderful secretary who looks at the incoming mail and separates out anything that she knows I've been looking forward to seeing urgently. Everything else goes into a buffer storage area, which I empty periodically.
Right, there's at least two or three of you running around and trying to undermine the project. Cut it out. This idiotic attempt to create discord is not productive; it's somewhere between trolling and deliberate sabotage.
It has become a paper crown that people wear to prop themselves up.
So, for me, this GR wouldn't conflict with the constitution, but I doubt very much that this draft is part of solving our problems.
What does Amaya's website have to do with anything?
"None of these other things worked, so this one must"? That's not actually rational...
I don't even have an e-mail address. I have reached an age where my main purpose is not to receive messages.
Just because Eray made up till the DAM stage (back in the days!) doesn't mean the whole process is flawed.
To be fair, having 'fuck the krauts' or something turn up on a Wikipedia page about Germany is far less damaging than having 'rm -rf /' turn up in a glibc preinst.
People are surprised when something comes from amateurs because not many people recognize what they can do.
The fact that you think a debian package is comparable in terms of risks and requirements to a wikipedia page kinda disturbs me.
A determined idiot could still get through and cause damage.
Flamefests do not build mindshare.
I don't really care about this package and have quite enough stuff of my own that I don't have enough time to do.
When a NM joins I doubt he realises the self-destructive "mindshare" battle that goes on within Debian.
I'd take a bullet for my wife, my mother, my sisters, but never for a feminist.
The best way to get something changed is to make it clear to everyone, in a quiet and yet compelling way, why the change is in their best interests to do.
I meant what I said.
Debian is more a "team of champions" than a "champion team".
Let's build a database.
A culture is always built on the people implementing them.
Debian has a goodly supply of crackpots.
I used to hold individual developers accountable for percieved problems within debian. However, im starting to realise those individuals are only partly to blame, its debians culture thats warped them.
If you meant nothing, then why did you post at all?
It's mostly apolitical, except when loudmouths such as yourself come along and start shouting your shit from the rooftops.
Being open doesnt have to mean less secure.
When I saw that most of the debian/rules file in debian were long and complex and hard to understand and maintain, I didn't start a flamewar or even send and argue about a lot of patches, I just wrote a good tool to improve them.
The GNOME group is a pleasure to work in.
We have poor communications, it's not a constructive team environment.
If we say that Debian is not apolitical, will you FOAD so that people can get back to working on releasing a distribution instead of being drawn in by your trolls?
Last I checked, the only (psuedo) religious texts Debian were based on were the Foundation Documents, and the Torah is not one of those.
We should have a button on every computer marked "?", and connected to twenty pounds of semtex, and then let evolution take its course.
* Kamion has pretty much the same attitude as vorlon - if it needs to be more formalized then we'll get somebody to make it more formalized when it becomes important; until then, the work's more important.
The manner in which you attempted to defend your reputation, you simply enforced your image as a troll.
Why do I even attempt a dialogue with morons?
You know, this is a pretty good idea; it's a pity that the rest of your message paints you as such an jerk that it will be ignored.
The manner in which you attempted to defend your reputation, you simply enforced your image as a troll.
<eigood> Manoj: your skin isn't thick enough if what
Clint just said pushed you over the edge.
<JHM> I don't think the size of a final drop really matters.
Remember: There's always someone smarter than you somewhere in the community, and she may have a better idea than yours.
Being less confrontational can lead to a more productive dialogue.
For me working on d-i has been a continual challange and a delight.
I feel you are now mostly posting riddles and occasional trolls.
Debian culture? Isn't that an oxymoron?
I object to using Condorcet because I always lose that way.
This works because so far, none of the packages rebuild against libgpg-error0 *use* libgpg-error0 -- it is a spurious dependency.
Free Software and the Idiots who buy it...
There were SMP systems based on i386 CPUs from Sequent, and 486-based SMP systems both based on the Intel MP spec were aviable from various vendors, as well as stranger designs like the NCR Voyager (also supported by Linux)
It is a moral duty for the secretary to bash morons.
Don't try to NMU for bugs you haven't filed yet.
The reality of adding software to an operating system is that every application you add makes it more difficult to keep your installation secure, stable, and up to date.
Your answer isn't constructive in anyway. What are you trying to contribute, or are you here just to spread doomsday fear?
* wichert imagines master without a MTA <james> wichert: Ehm? That might hinder peformance of the BTS
If you do not want a deamon to be active then don't install it.
Removing log files without asking is unacceptable.
Linux distributions have always been very good about including a great number of packages in their repositories.
Linux repositories aren't perfect, but they are miles ahead of competing proprietary commercial offerings.
If you do want to keep the files, then don't purge it.
This is all very nice, but now I need three monitors next to each other to see anything on the package overview page.
Since when is there communication in Debian... Sorry I couldn't resist.
Could someone please hijack KDE?
The release managers are going to kill me.
There is no need to "hijack" KDE, I have been trying to give it away for years now. It seems no one else is insane enough to take it.
Patching, and forking, is the way GPL works... and works great.
The current freeze date for testing is 28 August, and while there may be some slippage yet, it's not likely to slip by more than half a month.
<weasel> note to self: mkswap on physical extends of an LVM considered harmful.
I can't be nasty when leading the open-source movement since it's all built on trust and teamwork.
Trolls are the most efficient way to convert anything into shit.
Windows may add adventure to your life... But with Debian you are livin' on the Etch!
In general, reducing the complexity of our package dependency graph is definitely in our best interests from a standpoint of being able to release in a timely manner.
I find white noise in package descriptions very anoying.
Fundamentally, Debian is vulnerable to anything that is actually a better Debian.
We don't do binary hooks in the kernel. Full stop.
Debian infinity (...and beyond) - is the way to go!
We cannot take something away, you never had to begin with.
I'd really prefer not to step on original authors toes.
A Spanish-language version of Windows XP, destined for Latin American markets, asked users to select their gender between 'not specified,' 'male' or 'bitch,' because of an unfortunate error in translation.
Nobody cares when you do something right; it's expected.
Umm, just because he's pissed off we shouldn't remove support for hardware.
If you run AWStats, you will need quite a lot of technical knowledge, such as the skills to run a UNIX program.
If Linux would work the same as Solaris, then there would be no problem.
You relied on a binary, closed source driver, and so you relied on the whims of the owner of such a driver. It's a tough lesson to learn, I realize, sorry.
What you will encounter in Debian, and free software development in general, is nothing like you will encounter in the mundane world. There will be an endless stream of accusations and recriminations from other Debian developers, from upstream developers, and from users, who will turn out to be the single most stupid and ungrateful group of people you will ever encounter.
Open source is about more than "rabid zealotry" like some people seem to think.
Lisp is too much of a mystery to me.
Compliments where compliments due, I always say...
Ick ick ick! No, that's not the way to fix this.
Debian is not a social club and will never be one.
Because of course "Cancel" is obviously "Back", and not "End configuration".
I am not a lawyer, so please do not use this as legal advice.
At work we didn't have network access and finally we discovered that the firewall is gone. In the sense of the box that served as fw has been stolen.
Cross-compilers do not really work in practice. They're only useful for bootstrapping.
We also "won't have mailing lists anymore" if people continue to send parody to development announcement mailing lists.
Expecting people to clean-room reverse engineer GPL source is a joke.
Alioth is the number one unstable, most complained about service in Debian that I know of.
I now realize that. So I've ripped that hook out, as it's only used to load a binary driver, which is not allowed.
The advantage of this move is that we can release sarge without melting murphy.
We cannot release software that we are unable to support.
We don't have a good way to deal with maintainers who do a bad job.
Welcome to the world of "VIA Linux support", where instead of reverse engineering Windows drivers, we now have to do it with Linux drivers.
When the author GPL'd it he gave up his rights to remove it.
Vim AND emacs? Why both, when we could live with just... Oh wait, I'm not going to start THAT thread.
As far as production machines go, I have the policy to only run Debian on them.
We can't go around throwing out drivers because the author had a tantrum.
I'm disgusted by how many people have been complaining, yet when I ask people to step up and actually _do_ something about it, people suddenly become very quiet, or continue complaining about it ignoring the fundamental issue.
*please*, this is debian-private, not debian-who-wants-gmail-invites.
Until people turn from whiners to doers, nothing will happen.
Keeping drivers against the wishes of the authors in the tree would be very troubling for the future.
You appear to be seeking to hurt your userbase for your own ends.
It's amazing how long it took for this to be fixed.
Besides, format conversions _are not allowed_ in the kernel. They belong into userspace.
The GPL is very careful to explicitly grant rights in the text.
Heh, we've discussed this already in private, I'll be glad to discuss it again, any time, in public on any mailing list.
It's not like the driver suddenly stops from working because it's unmaintained.
If you value a working binary driver more than anything else, have you considered switching over to a proprietary OS including said driver?
Unfortunately it's what happens when people rely on binary drivers and promises - they get shafted.
Bah, time to mark the driver broken again...
There's tons of drivers that have no maintainer.
At 640x480 the QuickCam 3000 is an awful blurry mess.
Inflating the hyperbole isn't productive.
We don't keep hooks that are there purely for binary drivers.
Right now I can't even install Debian on some of my hardware because the must-have bleeding edge kernels we've upgraded to are buggy.
The kernel policy for video capture has always been that format conversion belongs in user space.
It's not a technical problem. It's a guess.
Open source is important from a technical angle.
Something is changing, arguably for the worse.
I wouldn't trust [Jörg Schilling] to interpret the meaning of a bowl of oatmeal, much less EU authors' rights law.
Binary-only drivers are supported on one architecture, for one specific kernel version, for one combination of config options.
The fact is, Linux has been a hell of a lot more successful at moving to things like x86-64 and ppc64 than Windows will ever be. And the reason is open source drivers.
I think my position is isomorphic to yours.
Security is the one issue that could stand in all our ways.
I guess it was just one of those days, but I started off on solving one problem only to encounter new problem after new problem until I was popped so far down the problem stack that I couldn't find my way back out.
A binary driver SCREWS OVER users on other architectures.
As a general rule, the purpose of a "press release" is not to document internal processes.
We're really in danger right now of people losing concentration on the release, because the release is effectively stalled.
I think those poor schmucks on the "Enterprise" were running closed-source software, possibly even a derivative of Windows!
It's been a while since I pulled my last allnighter. That wonderful feeling at 4am, as the mind goes lucid again, shaking off the drowsiness. The cold sweat, the realization, that A/C air isn't made to be inhaled for more than 10 hours straight, the cold glow of neon light.
I'm ready to be done with sarge, please.
We should not sacrifice the needs of our users to make political statements.
While I have seen several arguments for Sender ID on this list, none has really made the case that it is a vastly superior technology.
It is good to ask upstream, but I don't think we can require a DD to convince upstream!
Do we have any high quality fonts in Debian?
I don't need to be a DD to NMU something.
You'd find people a lot more willing to work with you if you offered more help and agreed to more compromises than you threaten with NMUs.
You are aware that many buildds are run by non-DDs and thus need sponsored binary uploads to get the debs into the archive?
I find you to be a giant pain in the ass at times, but the same can be said for dozens of developers.
I definitely do not think that any binary upload should ever be sponsored, full stop.
Looks like what I was fearing has already happened. We have lost about a third of our buildd network, thus moving sarge behind even more.
Since when have we placed arbitary deadlines above quality?
Trust is only loosely related to quality.
It's rather more important what people *do* than what people say.
If a third of our build network was not trusted by the delegates in charge of Debian's buildds, the solution is to get more trusted buildd machines, not to shove packegs in wily nilly.
Hey Ingo, please don't stand in front of that passing truck.
Being able to work with others is a major part of working in Debian.
Sometimes the subject line is a really awful summary of a thread.
PS: If you want to talk about the good old days before the great Usenet renaming, drop me a line off-list.
How do you know the source matches the binary?
I offered as well last years autumn a few MIPS machines for the mips port. They were rejected for very obscure reasons such as "You have no knowledge on mips", "This machines are two slow...", etc... Note that the very same machines helped to bring down the backlog on mips withhin two weeks now.
How much drool are we allowed to produce?
1. 0 2. 1 3. 2 4. 3 5. 4 6. 5 7. 6 8. 7 |-) What sort of FTP proxy firewall do you have?
Those who enter a discussion with the mindset that "The person I'm going to discuss with is going to treat me like shit" get treated like shit.
How do you know the binary was created from the source they sent you?
If you don't trust the machine's operator, then even root access isn't good enough. If you trust him, the DD/non-DD distinction is moot.
Personal trust exists even outside the Debian web of trust.
I won't blindly upload a binary package supplied to me by anyone.
I hate CDs. They're so completly the modern floppy, except they manage to suck even more.
Transitive trust should not be encouraged.
It saddens me to see that donations of accounts and free CPU cycles to DDs are no longer appreciated by Debian.
Free Software works only in a web of trust.
I've had enough lists turn into Gmail market machines.
Free software is founded upon the principle of many eyes, not a web of trust.
If I ever do join I would definitely want all comments whether good or bad known
Trust doesn't imply secrecy.
True Free Software Heroes don't read Slashdot.
Writing a compiler that takes C source and generates a working binary is easy.
Who is Amanda and what is her role in the backups?
It's six o'clock in the morning where we are. So don't expect a pong any time soon. Also his idle time is indicative, he went to bed at 1 in the morning, probably normal pattern so he likely won't be up in a couple more hours. See, i know everything about normal biorythms, I just don't practice them myself.
I'm on some lists where there are more than 10/day Gmail-related messages -- it's gotten ridiculous.
Are you really asking for people who objected to your application to come forward publically on this mailing list?
If you can avoid running auto*, please do.
I would say it is an absolute requirement if you are not willing to state your objections in public then you have no right to make any.
Congratulations, you have successfully created a situation when there need not have been one.
Not only do we need to release sarge, but we need to release something that can be supported after it's released.
*sigh* I wasn't aware the procedure for becoming an official Debian subproject was to announce the project on slashdot.
There's no reason why anybody should ever implement anything.
I find it unacceptable that debian.org machines relay spam.
Bottom line: If you use Windows, you're asking for trouble.
In general, we respect the interpretation of licenses that the license author and copyright holder wish to enforce.
Let's all sit around and look at computers that do nothing.
Sorry, but if policy disagrees with common sense, then we need to apply common sense, not policy.
I think we should ship as many DFSG-free fonts as we can responsibly maintain.
You cannot reject a user because you don't like them for some reason, and say that they do not deserve the same freedoms as everybody else and therefore it doesn't matter that the software isn't free for them.
I would not trust a CA that hands out certificates for free, that's pointless and does not give any more security than a self-signed certificate.
You can almost fit two Joey's in Joeyh.
Debian provides Free Software not Free Services.
Just because some lunatic has objected to something in the past does not mean it isn't right.
The MIT license is in no way a copyleft.
I'm still pissed about the LSB tests mandating multibyte support when POSIX requires multibyte support only if you claim support for multibyte locales.
We can note that Microsoft made very clear that they prefer no standard to a standard they do not control.
Update: Yes I am dumb and the book is actually called Fahrenheit 451. Tune in next week for my review of George Orwells' 1983.
<Kamion> Let me guess, alioth is slow <joshk> It's down
Such trivial tasks such as "Add 2.6 d-i for hppa" balloon nicely into "Holy CRAP, this 2.6 code is ugly!" I now know what I'll be hacking on the rest of the time that I'm here.
I'm not staying on a network where opers are free to kline anyone based on personal tantrum.
Importance is relative.
If it's so hard, why do we insist that every new Debian install include Exim?
You have a right to consider whatever you want a bad idea.
When direct email fails you respond to a mailing list that the person is likely to read.
The Oldenburg developer's meeting is like that, old hardware, wacky sleep schedules, and an informal, relaxed, and very productive atmosphere.
There is a tendency to do everything at boot for convenience of the users running half their system off ramdisks.
Bugs like that should be closed and replaced with new bugs that have better-edited contents.
Debian is a not-for-profit organization, so there is no point in talking about "financial loss due to false positives" here.
The bug report isn't about whether the package *should* be built for m68k and arm, it's about whether it *can* be built for m68k and arm.
Uploads that don't actually change anything in the package, just to have something in the changelog, are wrong as well.
I'm not really convinced it's practical to generate a free license by modifying the GFDL.
The interesting thing when it comes to feeding back values from a configfile into debconf, is when the file is a shell script that gets sourced (which is quite a common case). In that case, there's no reliable way I know of to keep all local changes. That's why I find it stupid when people try to do that.
I might send the list an announcement whenever a new GNU program is written. That happens less often than babies are born, it does the world a lot more good.
My preference is a simple editor that gets the hell out of my way when my fingers are flying.
Hmpf, KDE reminds me of GNOME applications a couple of years ago insane amounts of warnings and debug output on the tty.
Too bad I can't get a faster brain.
In an ironic twist of fate, Slashdot suffers from the wiggynet effect.
So I know i'm upstream, but this is the only bug tracker for nwall that exists!
I am certain that I would love to have you running any ISP I'm purchasing services from.
<madduck> Joey: ping? <madduck> Joey: unping.
Everybody repeat after me: "Shared libraries need versioning."
This flux of fresh and new ideas around Debian is nice, as very interesting projects can be cooked in it.
Damn, a friend just pulled a Perens on me.
If running an SMTP server from a dynamic IP host is so wrong, why do we insist that every new Debian install include exim?
* helix just uses the keyboard for everything. <helix> which nearly backfired on me earlier when I spilled water on my keyboard
I would have no problems using code from anyone as long as they were competent and produced good code; and the license was acceptable.
I have, however, a problem with using software from an author who is widely known for his "creative" interpretation of RFCs and his refusal to improve his software's interoperability.
Those people who always claim that Debian stable is not up to date might note that at the same time it is not old enough.
Of course, this is Larry E. we're talking about, so don't expect rational or good decisions to come out of that steaming pile.
Doing manual work is refreshingly simple.
The current implementation is a horrible kludge that only works in some circumstances.
It may be that the office's Consumer Protection Division doesn't let bogus complaints die -- they just fade away...
I guess I need to manage my time better, and sleep less.
Thanks, it was really dumb not looking at the source. I used to do that, before Google deformed my analytical thinking skills.
With Microsoft, failure is not an option. It is a standard feature.
Debian developers require 28 hours in a day, as opposed to the normal 24.
Looking at Planet Debian, you could say many Debian developers don't get holidays or spend the whole day kept out from sun.
* Changed libtiff3g-dev's section back to devel, since graphics was, according to elmo, "hysterical raisins". :))
Frankly speaking, the question whether to include clamav or not in sarge is IMHO not a question whether volatile exists or not. Either clamav is stable enough to be part of a stable release or not.
I plan to completely rewrite these scripts in Python soon.
Clamav can be as stable as a rock but be completely useless...
Didn't the RMs say something about 'no major new upstream releases', in order to be able to ship sarge this year?
Debian stable is about providing a stable platform that people can build upon. It's about providing something that can be trusted to work, rather than one where upgrades break things.
The problem is not "find an archive"; the problem is not "find a team".
I think that every upload to the security archive should be accompanied by a security advisory.
<Marco> We are talking about unstable. <Andreas> We are talking about a package aimed for next stable.
Really? Not updating virus information makes my machine vulnerable all by itself? I dispute that.
Methinks we need something like wwwconfig-common, but for databases...
It's a James-is-a-moron problem. I broke (read: deleted) experimental's overrides by mistake.
I think this was one of the most relevant posts to debian-devel-announce during the past months.
There are more packages that I consider rather useless than that should be included in volatile.debian.net.
Jörg Schilling is damage; the community should route around him.
A site that covers legal topics should include both sides.
<madduck> weasel: does deborphan make any attempt to use the atime
of files to identify unused packages?
<weasel> no
<madduck> would this be worth to consider?
<weasel> no
<madduck> fine then.
<madduck> just a thought.
It remains to be seen how the Ubuntu development evolves.
Is there really a developer out there that doesn't do even the most rudimentary version control by keeping copies of all the source packages he has uploaded/worked on?
I */HATE/* IRC. Most folks type so slowly, it's like pushing my head slowly through gelatine to get anything done.
<weasel> madduck: are you totally crazy!? <madduck> weasel: yes. why?
* helix just uses the keyboard for everything. <Manoj> So do I, for the most part. Except when I use the mouse.
Putting the blame on others can relieve some stress but won't solve the real problems of SPI, I am afraid.
I am now in favour of msmtp simply because it provides for cryptography. In the long run, I would rather like to see ssmtp and nullmailer removed in favour of msmtp, because in the long run, unencrypted SMTP should not be supported.
There's just a hunk of hex.
We *could* have meetings using ytalk. Then you don't have to wait for everyone to press enter.
People (aka scum) who harvest addresses only care about a numbers, not "target markets".
I'd guess that most of us can read (with an ordinary level of attention to detail) at perhaps 500 WPM and type at maybe 50 WPM, very roughly.
The semantics are very different for any non-trivial scenario (and for many trivial ones too).
If you've been wondering how long it takes for an email address to propagate from the Debian list archives to spammers, here's one data point: less than 71 hours.
It is GPLed. This is why it hasn't been put in non-free.
I also find IRC is fine for more informal settings.
<bubulle> Hihi... Timezone default for Catalan is Europe/Madrid.. * bubulle is sure that the people in Barcelona will *love* that...
You know, this is part of our "privacy policy" for the mailing lists: "We do not sell email addresses, we give them for free" This is of course not written anywhere but it's sadly true.
Is the entire world on crack and I just failed to notice until now?
So, it might even give you a larger window, but obfuscating the archives won't save you from address harvesting.
You can't violate your own licensing terms.
Debian does not require source for non-free.
Fixing a problem around maintainers may be necessary sometimes but should definetly be avoided.
The copyright holder cannot logically be in violation of his own licensing terms.
It's yet more spam. Why would we respond or care?
Discover should not try to load drivers for PCI devices AT ALL, we have hotplug for this.
I hack, therefore I am.
First of all, I Am Not A Lawyer, so don't sue me if your trial goes bad. It's all your fault for believing me.
Hotplug is automatically up to date to the installed kernel. This alone should be a major argument in its favour.
Is that a spammer or is this a legitimate request to get all the Debian Project spam from now on?
I strongly disagree with that, as I do with anything other than a set of words being called a name.
[..] trying to avoid extra dependencies on gnumeric is like trying to plug one hole in the Titantic with a bit of tissue paper.
devfs is dead, deal with this.
Linux takes shit and turns it into something useful. Windows takes something useful and turns it into shit.
This discussion about 'efficient board meetings' has already eaten up several board meetings worth of man-hours of time among those of us discussing it largely to rehash the same arguments, when it's unlikely that either of us, at least, will change our opinions.
There are only so many buffer overflows you want to tolerate in your life.
I believe some things are better served by e-mail discussions, but I also believe some things are better served by IRC discussions.
It seems to me that you have misunderstood my question. Or I do not understand your reply.
Sun is not proprietary, just as IBM is not bankrupt.
And there is the difference of philosophy between OSS people and FS people. The latter care about freedom, the former care about marketing and software quality.
I don't honestly believe any board member will change their behaviour in the long term because of a resolution any more than any members of the board who drink or smoke would stop doing so simply because we passed a resolution stating they should stop.
Perhaps most don't consider d-i betas to be true Debian releases, but I do.
<joshk> People tell me there is a module missing in sparc kernel udebs <joshk> Exactly FIVE hours after I upload a linux-kernel-di * joshk shoots murphy -- #debian-boot
WHAT? Sarge might be RELEASED? Isn't that one of the signs of the Apocalypse?
Perhaps being annoying is my natural state; your post didn't help.
<[u]> Anyways Debian seems to have a new and energetic Security Officer,
he keeps mailing
<[u]> I get more mail from Joey than from my mistress
<joshk> oops, I need to read the Rime of the Ancient Mariner
before I lose consciousness
<vorlon> the Rime of the Ancient Mariner is more fun to read
if you're already unconscious.
<joeyh> semiconcious works fine.
Face it. There is currently no security support for sarge. We all know why. Maybe it's time to force some things...
<p2-mate> ths: Ah. Does Linux already have R12k support? <ths> p2-mate: The R12k is just a shrinked R10k with some bugs fixed.
It is our right to hide things. We do not hide problems, we hide possible solutions.
<liiwi> /dev/cciss/c0d0p9 19G 18G 0 100% /var/list/junk <liiwi> lalalalaaa
The social problem of "people don't like it when we freeze unstable" was solved quite well by the technical solution "we don't need to freeze unstable any more".
You are trying to force developers to work on item x, which they dislike, by forcing them to not work on item y, which they like more.
Erm, now, after I've killed it, someone tells me they have been happily using my editor for many years.
In the past, when we did freeze unstable, it never forced me to do anything but twidle my thumbs for months until things got moving again.
Sometimes I could almost believe there is a libfoo.
Work that doesn't serve a useful purpose should not be done. The effort should be expended elsewhere.
Just because I make not money from Debian does not mean I am willing to sell out to non-free software.
Sending 63 patches do not really qualify as massive bug filling.
Proposing a change that will tend to making it harder to have most packages up-to-date, and then justifying it by saying you hope your scheme will result in a shorter release time does not seem very wise to me.
It is never ever my intention to be part of a flame.
This rapidly turns from a plain 404 error script into a somewhat nontrivial Perl-or-Python-or-whatever doument handler.
Are you volunteering to go out and learn how to do it? Or is this yet another time wasting rant?
My guess is that the release team would go insane having to approve every upload to unstable.
Come on, this is ridiculous. Of course, you can always cheat if you want to.
The Open Source community works through communication.
A program designed for inputs from people is usually stressed beyond breaking point by computer-generated inputs.
Are you volunteering to go out and better educate yourself to take on this work?
I think it is premature to declare that Ubuntu's model works any better than what we're currently doing, in the long run.
Now, somebody please give me a month that isn't in the calendar...
NB: you're not making things easier by posting on d-s-a
Did I mention that I "hate" custumers who reply "thank you" into our ticket system and reopening the cases?
Time to put a Python layer on top of it.
In any case, I'd appreciate other eyes looking at FHS 2.3 and comparing it to what changed since FHS 2.1 -- and which bits we may decide not to implement.
An editor that can't keep up with a pressed down down cursor arrow is nowhere near fast enough.
Message incomplete because your OS sucks.
<Manoj> calc: seen my note on -policy and -devel? <Manoj> calc: as it stands, we probablyy won't pull 2.3 into policy like we did 2.1 <Manoj> calc: and no, that's not how things work
Having a program asking the user "do you want to violate the FHS?" does not make it not to be a violation.
While the mirrors have the (network) resources to feed downloads to 100s of users, they don't have the (CPU) resources for a few dozen rsyncs.
I figured that it was spam, as it was addressed to "Dear Business Professional", which is not my name.
<Manoj> pasc: It is past 2am, and I've been fixing policy bugs for 6 hours now <Manoj> My humour quotient is low at the moment
It's just, that there are days where you don't have time for anything, not even for sleeping. And October was such a day.
The benefit of conducting Debian as openly as possible is that you don't have to get particular people's advice to come up with good solutions -- you can just troll through the archives for all the data you need.
Hmmmm, that's ugly.
I am not surprised because the corporate ways of Linux vendors are starting to override the Linux idealism.
/*
* Nice work Convex people! Thanks a million!
* When STDC is used feof() is defined as a true library routine
* in the header files and moreover the library routine also leaks
* royally. (It returns always 1!!) Consequently this macro is
* unavoidable.)
*/
Debian is the old grandfather of Linux.
I just wonder why, if a lot of the Debian guys are working on Ubuntu, that Debian is behind.
<Joy> Subject: [SECURITY] [DSA 585-1] New shadow packages fix unintended behaviour * Joy shudders at the thought of security bugs in shadow packages * Joy has Solaris flashbacks
Releasing with a hundred known security problems in the kernel is worse than releasing with a dozen unknown security problems in Priority: extra packages.
Here in OpenBSD land we really care about licenses.
* TCP/IP Take Court Proceedings over Intellectual Property * DNS Darl's Not Sinister * DHCP Devise Hazardous Corporate Patents * LPD Lawyers Paid Double; and, finally * RIP Our IP
The maintainer of sysklogd have a problematic relationship with NMUs.
Everything within Debian is ultimately a human task.
Free software works by people simply doing things and contributing them to the community.
KDE in unstable is not a good model to follow.
You should try to not ask questions for which you already have the answer.
Looks like these are solutions in search for a problem.
<helix> gee, I hope I make it through :) I wouldn't want to disappoint
<stockholm> helix: try flirting with your AM!
<helix> umm
* helix is fairly shocked by such an inappropriate comment
coming from stockholm of all people
Ubuntu is like Debian but with few tweaks to make it more user friendly.
<wiggy> I'm somewhat scarred by the devfs fiasco though.. messy to setup <wiggy> and once I had it all sorted out it was deprecated again
I'd assume that all storage can come and go 'at whim'.
C is like shooting oneself into the left foot, the right foot, the left foot, the right foot.... continously.
The release team is running out of objections to GNOME 2.8 in unstable.
You cannot have a rapid deployment with urgency=low as a priority.
It is a cheat. But it proves that that condition in the license isn't worth the electrons it's written on.
<eigood> Some male should take on the name 'helix' as well.
<eigood> Then, when the 2 helix's get together, they will
be a double-helix, and life will continue
<helix> Yeah, that was lame
Free software works by people simply doing things and contributing them to the community. If other people are interested, it will be picked up.
/** Note: '!' delimits Usenet nodes, '@' delimits ARPA nodes,
':' delimits CSNet & Bitnet nodes, '%' delimits multi-
stage ARPA hops, and '/' delimits X.400 addresses...
(it is fortunate that the ASCII character set only has
so many metacharacters, as I think we're probably using
them all!!) **/
If you want a theoretical discussion of ISO procedures vis-a-vis free software this just isn't the right place.
<liw> I see no topic, has the world ended?
There are only two kinds of productivity applications
which feature skins as a requirement:
* Programs written by and for 13 year old boys.
* Garbage
<joeyh> well, until it's properly buttered, it's in my top 10 <joeyh> post-butter, it's fine <joeyh> you still using butter or did you find some margarine? <markos_> no still works on butter :-) <joeyh> new every day? <joeyh> I'd think it would get rancid <markos_> i miss the pre-butter times though :-) <markos_> no, i haven't buttered it since Oldbg <joeyh> (this man used _butter_ to grease his cpu fan) <markos_> yeah and it worked :-)
Well, my wife and son (who's, uhm, 2) have physical access to the buildds in my house. I suppose I could lock the racks that they're in but for some reason I'm just not all that worried.
Here's why computer programmers shouldn't be physicians: "OK, we're going to shut the patient down and bring up his systems one by one."
<marcus> I killed a werewolf, a black unicorn, a kitten, and I have excalibur. <marcus> The kitten was an accident.
With Service Pack 2 Microsoft introduced a couple of new security features. However, some of them suffer from implementation flaws.
Can you be a real package maintainer if you haven't broken your package at least once?
KDE 3.3.1 is now in about as good a state as it can be without outside help.
It is common for licenses to demand impractical things.
I'm developing Srivastava's Syndrome -- that makes me a Developer, right?
You can steal my car, my money, my shoes, I don't really care, but don't steal my damn laptop!
I always have the impression that those packages having "powerful" in the description are the least deserving it...
Debian, the distribution of a hundred window managers and a thousand text editors...
Please note that I am trying very hard to be reasonable.
We have no way to force developers to take bugs seriously.
If theory doesn't match practice, then it's not a particularly good theory...
Without those files, these devices are just bits of metal, plastic, and sand.
<Manoj> I guess we could have Sean Penn play me
<lamont> Is there a tag for "won't be fixed until sarge+1"? <sam> Depends whether the BTS is year 2037 compliant
Martin Schulze informed us that our previous sudo update did not fix this problem. This update does.
<liw> In the good old days, Debian had sex
I'd rather tell people to use $ANY_OTHER_LINUX_DISTRO_AT_ALL, than to release Sarge without security support.
Excuse me? Please go and use Fedora.
If you compare Microsoft's practices with the definition of Free Software, you'll see that they have very little in common.
Money is nice, but integrity is everything. So, I have resigned.
Torvalds orchestrates thousands of Linux developers distributed around the globe, synthesizing and arranging the bits into the masterpiece that disrupted the software establishment, crippling Sun, reviving IBM and giving Microsoft a taste of mortality.
Why are there never enough hours in the day?
Just put enough pressure on me and I'll fix it right away.
When Ubuntu revealed their original cleavage-enhanced splash screen, I knew the world was ready for a Triple-X operating system.
If there's anything I hate, it's software that tries to be smarter than me.
I belong to the class of 6 March 2004. These are the 61 final candidates who since 6 March 2004 have fully completed the New Maintainer tests and have earned final recommendation from everyone involved except the DAM, the latter of whom for inferable but admittedly unexplained reasons has deep-frozen the entire class.
Compared to RPM hell dselect is easy to use. Of course, once shown apt I saw dselect in a new light.
I find dselect usable and straightforward if a little ugly and basic but aptitude and synaptic are impenetrable to the casual user.
The Debian website has many undocumented URLs. Each query illuminates it more. Zork lives?!
I also find dselect a useful and easy to use tool. I was beginning to think I was the only one left who thought that. Visually it's a bit clunky but it all makes sense to me, familiarity is a useful thing, I guess.
Debian has the institutional memory of an ADHD nerd.
In my world, dselect is a front-end to apt, not an alternative to it.
GNOME does not, and will not ever know about X resources.
Installing new applications and configuring old ones in Debian GNU/Linux is a breeze.
There is no doubt in my mind that we have to consciously nurture the conversation.
While it may seem like a senseless requirement, it's extremely useful when we are dealing with the number of lists we are dealing with.
I'm strongly in favor of releasing only for the 2 or 3 most popular architectures and whatever other arches happen to be ready.
I'd love to help with auditing the archive, but I'm washing my hair that decade.
Hiring developers away from a project, so that they no longer spend time on it, is not normally considered a good solution.
I can't imagine any situation when there is no rationale to have a system policy on what /users/ should use to execute commands as root.
It's funny that m68k comes up so frequently in these discussions, since in practice this architecture rarely lags behind.
According to the press and the FSF, GPLv3 has been due to release any time from 'real soon now' to 'next year' for most of the past decade. It will also contain everything from the BSD advertising clause to the MS EULA.
Handwaving and FUD are no substitute for facts.
Sounds like someone is ticked off that there's somebody out there who cares about regular releases of an Arch client, and making one that's usable by someone other than revision control gurus...
In short, money attracts the wrong sort of people.
Debian made a release in the stable series (woody) on Oct. 24, and Woody has been around since 2002, so it's about the same age as WinXP.
I was bored last night (not enough funny mails in the Hot-babe thread :) so I went off and played around with gimp a bit.
Fork and forget is Canonical's modus operandi (despite all the PR claiming otherwise).
Maybe I should stop filing bugs and just go to sleep, nah.
Don't ask for a dpkg expert. Ask for what you really need. Whoever can provide it may step up.
The newer firefox icon appears to be a gigantic red panda that is humping South America.
So, let me get this straight - fakepop will allow people to log in (using their username and password) in the clear and THEN tell them that they should have used POP over SSL instead. Quite how is this better than "connection refused"?
So Emacs is effectively non-free, because I don't speak Lisp.
The advantage of using glastree over pdumpfs is that it is implemented n Perl rather than Ruby (this is in fact the reason that I encountered it in the first place).
Just dropping on the floor is not appreciated.
Low-Memory systems are unlikely to have USB.
So it is broken until I understand this better and can fix it.
Most computers can do Debian; it may take some effort and persistence though.
A two-day shutdown resulted in 97.5% decrease in spam traffic!
Debian is full of very smart people.
Man is sexist, please remove all manpages or also provide woman pages.
Well, it is not the fault of the menu system that gnome-panel has a bug which prevents displaying user menus.
Debian is the first organization in history to have more single points of failure than actual personnel.
<marcus> wolfgang: problem is, if I do not follow up with another
key press, I actually want history to change
<wolfgang> marcus: Don't we all want history to change?
<marcus> wolfgang: I want the future to change
From package management to system dependencies, I have found Debian to be second to none.
How do you differenciate between users of unstable, and users of testing?
A girl offered me root on a sun box today if I would dance. It was the most amazing thing ever. PS: drunk
Why is /var/log/syslog named syslog, and not sys.log?
Nonetheless, while people often complain about the difficulties of using the Debian installer, I've found it to be quite usable.
<aba> Great. elmo has done a round of cleaning up the archive. <Rhonda> Well, ubuntu is released.... Now he has time again.
Extensions are a different matter. How they are organized is up to each extension more or less, depending mostly on the maturity of the extension.
In this context all I see is a rather negative corrupting effect of money.
I am just playing journalist and analysing everything I find.
Do we need to look like every other starving .com site?
How in the world does changing the names of core system libraries serve the technical goal of providing better *compatibility* between distros?
If no money changes hands, I would see this as a good thing too.
Say, perhaps a "Date:" field could be added to Packages files. I mean even dog food has the date stamped on it these days.
It's not clear to me that having ads [on webpages] would make them commercial.
Can't I just stay inside and fix bugs? I hate cocktails, and it's -10C on the nearest beach.
If I search for "Debian Linux" on Google, a Microsoft ad is displayed next to the results. Maybe this is useful, but I don't think we want that on Debian's web pages.
Perceptions count.
You have clearly been taken over by aliens.
?!??!?!?!?!?!?!"PO!(*"!$*_(!$*"($*!("*$_*!"*$(" That is all.
For most users, web ads are much more annoying than for us who can apply all kinds of filters to get a relatively ad-free (and popup-free!) browsing experience.
Debian has an Image (not just a bootimage).
SPI is a corporation. That does not make it a business (just attend a few board meettings...)
I guess sometimes I'm not paranoid enough!
If this development continues, the only ad-free space on the web will be Microsoft's web site, a few obscure government sites, and lots of orphaned web pages which haven't been updated for years.
When you bring money into the equation, then motivations change.
There are exactly zero LSB-certified applications.
I plan to submit myself at least to two days of Gnome torture, then two days of KDE torture... If time allows, I'll even torture myself again with xfce, although I tried to do so in the past, and never liked it.
When you bring money into the picture, everything changes.
"Free holidays for developers" doesn't seem like something we should be doing.
The fact that Debian doesn't 'exist'...
Do I really want to make any more contributions to the Emacs manual? That's not just a rhetorical question.
Organizations do not need to be incorporated to have legal existence.
The GPL was designed for software, not for books.
Nobody in the project can tell me what to do. That's written into the constitution.
I think punishing students that have actually found security holes does not make the world a better place.
Hmm. a) put Google adds on web pages, b) put hot babe on web pages, linked to clickthorough volumes, c) profit, d) hire all Debian developers full time.
The GFDL is designed to reduce the benefits to free riders.
This shameless attempt to turn Debian into a puppet of the US corporate government will not be permitted to succeed.
Putting it on a mailing-list accessible to nearly 1000 people comes pretty close to making it public.
I think the GFDL says more or less what it ought to say.
Sorry for the unusual high count of writing mistakes in my email, I am typing over a slow line here, but this is no excuse.
There does need to be a time limit, at least for some sign of progress.
I refuse to believe they are delusional enough to think they can just ignore us until we go away.
For every three new members who name you as their inspiration for joining, your choice of FSF founder and president Richard Stallman or FSF counsel and scholar Eben Moglen will record a personalized greeting ready for use on your answering machine.
Most people like to be right.
Your mails read like what stupid people think smart people write.
Inappropriate holiday cheer is also allowed, but please refrain from inappropriate NMUs induced by inappropriate amounts of holiday cheer.
All mail clients suck. This one just sucks less.
However, the trouble that I had indicates that Thuban is fragile.
Most people tend to be highly defensive if they have some core issue that they don't feel is being addressed properly.
It certainly wasn't my intention to give the authors an extra day of self-delusion.
Yes, I know that all of this is documented. The software shouldn't misbehave if the user doesn't read or obey the instructions.
Is the class on responsible disclosure next semester perhaps?
Actually, it's just proof that Debian is mentally ill.
Why after sarge? Nobody knows when sarge will be released.
When a baseless claim of mental illness is made I think that most hope of a non-adversarial resolution disappears.
This is the argument that says Free Software is impossible.
I think it's impossible for Debian to be meaningfully involved without first having a clear understanding of what would be expected of us
Are you implying that James is exercising mind-control upon Ryan Murray?
Manufacturing an operating system involves NRE (non-recurring engineering) costs of hundreds of thousands to millions per revision.
The number of archs introduces some additional work, true, but it's usually no showstopper.
Do you have any actual hardware design experience to draw on here, or are you just blabbering?
I request that you be replaced from your 'Official Debian whiner' position.
In fact I'm using Debian exactly because it doesn't try to apeal ISVs, IHVs, OEMs and other business-driven three-letter acronyms.
People who cannot think and write logically are flamed.
It took me some time to read all those mails, in particular because some new threads were created in reply to this one creating a giant thread in my Mutt view.
Why do you persistently insult those who are trying to carry on a reasonable conversation?
S/390 is a little special, because it's neither a desktop nor a server architecture, but rather a mainframe one.
I thought the FSF had a big campaign a few years ago about how Free Software needs free manuals...
When dealing with code out in the wild, however, you have two communities to consider -- the programming community and the user community. Hmm. OK, three -- there's also the cracking community.
Look, this is Debian. They don't release things until you have to fire rockets at the thing to stop it working.
In theory, theory is just like practice. But in practice, it isn't.
Limiting free speech for list contributors is probably not what the Debian project should do.
Free Software is a development against domination.
This concept you have proposed horrifies to me.
Anything on a Debian list that looks like a single large 'thread' is invariably several dozen threads, mislabelled.
I am not a TeX parser, and no physician either.
If you agree to the GPL (or LGPL), you do not lose any rights you would have had if you hadn't agreed to it. It strictly increases the things you are legally allowed to do.
Debian is essentially an eclectic anarchy.
If I let my wife decide when I sleep, I'd probably never get anything done...
Assume it's the end of 2007 and etch has been out for a while.
The GPL is more of an *offer* than a contract in itself.
Indeed, being unable to uninstall a package is RC.
We do not practise the tyranny of the masses around here.
This is embarrassing. In the summer I added warnings to experimental grep-dctrl that numeric comparison semantics will change. But now I have no idea how I intended to change it.
You never sue someone for violating the terms of the GPL; you always sue them for copyright infringement.
We have release cycles, that's why it takes so long to get a release out. If we had release race cars, things would go a lot faster.
<helix> asuffield: well, you need an updated picture <asuffield> I can't be bothered <helix> that one isn't going to get you any babes <asuffield> do I look like I want them? <helix> you look like you NEED them
Well, it seemed evident that you didn't even understand your own words.
Well, would Sunday be complete without a Rob Enderle article on Linux to have a laugh over with you?
Maybe the real point here is that no one has come up with a spam control solution yet that involves killing spammers.
An Italian company is threating European redistributors. They collect royalties for a patent which was filed by France Telecom which covers a digital transmission system involving compression.
Tests are supposed to be a "here be monsters" type of thing.
Unfortunately, when bogus claims are repeated, it is necessary to repeat the refutation.
You cannot patent software, but the EPC doesn't say that software cannot infringe patents.
That's the usual mindless fluff patent, which applies to just about everything, like the (now expired) patent on linked lists.
SCO has been able to extort some substantial money for its supposed copyright on Linux code. We should remove Linux.
I faintly remember that somebody was running autobuilders for experimental, on a limited set of architectures. Google tells me, however, that I must be dreaming. Who is right?
"Not totally broken" might be a suitable marketing strategy for Microsoft, but I'm not convinced it's a level we want to be particularly aiming for.
If 'failing tests == broken' then we wouldn't have a working compiler for any architecture and/or for any release. I think there's a small flaw in your logic.
Debian already has four levels of version: stable, testing, unstable, and the new expiremental. Adding any more levels or options to the process will only slow down the release of stable.
This is a common misconception about stable and unstable. Unstable does not mean that it's fragile, going to break, or unsafe for use. Instead, it means that it has not been verified as stable.
The test results have to be interpreted by a human being. There are about twenty thousand tests and most architectures fail maybe a few dozen.
Common sense would suggest that tests that have to be analysed by a human being after every test run aren't particularly useful.
Debian will continue to distribute GFDL manuals in its archive anyway. No replacements are needed as far as most of our users are concerned.
<azeem> Eh, this is discomforting. A firefighter ladder just appeared <azeem> next to my office window with a lamp shining into my eyes. <flamingcow> Umm <flamingcow> Is your office on fire? <azeem> Dunno
I think Debian has already lost its defining role in software freedom.
Anyone who can put up with an entire SPI meeting deserves to be allowed to join
May we discuss this in another thread, please?
There is no necessity to attempt to make everyone happy.
<Overfiend> demonishi was my fangirl???? <Overfiend> somebody should have told me at the time...
For Debian, software is everything that is stored or transmitted in digital form.
We probably have to cater for license texts in documents as well.
I don't use words that i don't know the meaning of.
I am not against secrets. I am against non-secrets held secret.
Only because it is acceptable does not mean it has to be there.
A group of Amiga OS programmers is currently assembling on the AmigaWorld.net forums to port OOo to AmigaOS 4 (And thus potentially other AmigaOS compatible systems and older releases such as ARO, MorphOS and the AmigaOS 3.x series)
Copyright law does not inquire into the quality of a work.
I think my greatest talent might be reading and writing emails. I'm not the best I've ever seen but when I'm in a zone, I think I can hold my own against some of the better emailers out there.
If you want to keep shooting self in the foot please do so quietly.
Suggesting that Debian should use tools that are not part of its distribution to present itself does not make sense.
This should, of course, have been there all the time, as a bit of defensive programming, but hey, I'm only human.
Please! Trust in my magic CEO powers! I never leave my home for more than three hours without my Debian mirror!
Debian isn't lowering priority on Linux 2.4 work but individual people are.
Go tell Mozilla fellas to make their stuff more modular.
Splitting hairs like this is partially responsible for insanely long release cycles.
We've spent most of the past year thinking a release might be just round the corner.
Boot floppies and security infrastructure have been delaying woody for multiple months as well, and if we don't have security and installer delaying etch, I am pretty convinced that there will other stoppers this time.
If you can't play politely, other people will not be inclined to play with you.
Why don't you guys go to psychology class before telling people not to be rude?
<lool> Argh my girlfriend asked me to do something before she left <lool> but I can't recall what. Something with cleaning somewhere. <HE> Wow, that's better than "doing something somewhere". <lool> Indeed, but she should've filed a wishlist for that one.
A license that is not even granted to us, let alone the rest of the world, is of no use to us.
Sorry, but a package can't install a brain.
We can only cry wolf so many times before the world stops believing us and finds an option that actually works.
92% of the archive is not an insignificant amount.
It's impossible not to be rude on written media.
Make something damned stupid up and attribute it to me, that's okay.
Opinions are like arseholes. Everybody's got one and nobody wants to see the other guy's.
fortune: Too many open files in system.
"Export" means crossing the US border in the outward direction.
I love the name of the upcoming Fedora conference -- FUDcon.
AIX doesn't need dpkg, it has brain damage
3. Ian, I cannot reach you via email (everything bounces), please get in touch with me and tell me under which address you can be contacted.
Apart from that, of course, it makes him and his program look bad, but he should write better code then.
I need to compile libc4 on a brand-new unstable Debian machine in order to run a 10-year old executable (it only needs /libc.so.4).
8,920 source packages in Debian unstable main. 8,254 declare a build-dependency on debhelper = 92% of packages build-depend on debhelper.
Someone was injecting hallucinogenic gas into my apartment and made me think build-essential is spelled debconf.
I see no reason to complain.
This stuff is getting too easy...
The purpose of the changelog is to document history, not be an indelible document.
Sid is definitely usable by a power-user able to stomach the occasional bump in the road.
It is no use criticizing without offering any constructive suggestion.
I wore coconut lotion in spain and apparently everyone there hated coconuts So I offended their good "I only like the smell of hacker body odor" senses.
VoIP appears to have officially become boring and tired.
Time is irritatingly unforgiving.
I've no ambitions to become famous for hacking the Debian server a second time.
<Keybuk> so "A Preseeds B" means the same as "B Pre-depends A"
In the process of making shadow one of most babelish packages in Debian as well as break the record for the number of successive NMUs to a given package, a few translations have been added in the 4.0.3-30.8 release.
We're not going to destabalise d-i by beginning to make large changes to it, like not using devfs, until sarge is released.
Hint: This isn't Windows. You don't need to reboot your system every time you move your mouse to "update the changes".
Maybe the first thing to learn, when trying to enter the Debian community, is to be patient and respectful.
I suppose, that in the GPL sense, non-free *is* part of Debian.
You seem to be effectively diluting our list.
Please stop turning debian-legal into a pissing contest.
SourceForge also offers paid hosting for proprietary software. I'm pretty sure that appearance on the sourceforge.net site does not imply anything WRT licensing.
People have bickered over licenses since the beginning.
Remember, if you break Debian, you get to keep both parts.
SableVM so technically inferior that it must compete based on faulty political arguments rather than technical merit?
Personally I'd prefer a sample (just working, no matter how hackish) to get a better idea.
It just isn't fair that Windows users get all the viruses. I mean really, shouldn't Linux users be in on the fun as well?
What do you mean? Think I will visit you in your office for a coffee.
God bless the new DAM!
<Overfiend> Ugh. Singular they. Death to iwj.
Documentation is not software. Software is not documentation.
I need atleast 1 of those seemingly totally useless, but intellectually challenging problems each day, to call the day complete...
I didn't understand what you wrote, so I questioned its meaning.
<peterS> This is a channel of idle-worshippers
<infinity> Nonsense. This channel is a flurry of babble. <infinity> You just need a secret decoder glasses to see it.
Archive key management in Debian is suboptimal. Very suboptimal. Sorry.
For a company that most Slashdotters would say is on the decline, Microsoft sure has weird financial results!
I know, most ppl don't need this reminder, but Geekmummy likes to make sure, you're all prepared.
The quantity of untagged data (especially in emails and text files) is so high that using UTF-8 as the default encoding is inappropriate in many locales.
I can confirm, Sir: It is cool!
If a novice user wants to get full use of their system, if they want to be able to diagnose and fix problems, then they *MUST* be willing and able to learn.
Nobody asked you to spend time on this.
What is needed is a Debian package that instead of storing the files to /usr/share/doc infuses the knowleged straight to the users brain.
Testing is released once every hundred years (or so) and is called stable then.
If you don't want to get flamed, try to make a point of reading the thread you're replying to.
I apologise for entering this discussion without doing my homework.
The current release is called woody and dates back from 1882.
The last thing Debian needs is more ignorant assholes.
Not every possible bug is written into policy.
Then again, role keys are difficult to get right...
Not all open source users are necessarily creating malicious software.
The release notes currently recommend to use aptitude, not apt-get, for upgrading from woody to sarge.
I want to play by the rules, but the rules say executables should go to /usr/bin, *not* that everything in /usr/bin should be executable.
Oh look! You've managed to move the security problem a little to the left!
This is a community project. You are not a dictator, you are not some all powerful all seeing all knowledgable master, and I don't work for you.
Is there any reason why grammar, porn and spam debates are attracting so much traffic?
<weasel> Or the DAM could run for DPL <peterS> elmo is not believed to exist by enough people to vote for him, though
The DAM is creating too many accounts! Let's demonize him!
Some people are (in)famous for nothing in their lives apart from flaming a good Linux programmer.
<peterS> Is the Hurd ever going to make another release <Overfiend> What the FUCK do you MEAN, "another"?
Sorry for trying to be productive.
"Groupware" is all about things like "workflow", which means, "the chairman of the committee has emailed me this checklist, and I'm done with item 3, so I want to check off item 3, so this document must be sent back to my supervisor to approve the fact that item 3 is changing from `unchecked' to `checked', and once he does that, it can be directed back to committee for review."
Sometimes the best misdirection is unadulterated honesty.
Has Craig just walked off the map by allowing restrictions on the intended purposes of derived works?
<Overfiend> I've got Alzheimer's *AND* Manoj's Syndrome,
and I'm coming off better than you.
So, the nature of the Debian Cabal is that its existence, if it exists, is only known to its members, should there be any members.
One thing I have learned in the last 24 hours is that people do not bother to read available documentation, regardless of where it is stored. You have to hurl it right into the user's face.
We no longer make releases. We provide the basis from which others make releases -- Ubuntu, Progeny, Knoppix, Custom Debian dists etc pp.
Blaming operational failures on emotional factors is a recurring theme in both Debian and SPI.
* vorlon loves the bizarre claim that Xouvert is named after the "Babylonian goddess of open windows."
No one lets me touch code anymore.
While 2.6.10 is looking much better its long period meant the allegedly "official" base kernel was a complete pile of insecure donkey turd for months.
I think throwing it away would be constructive.
Ignoring bug reports is certainly a bad idea and prove your intelligence. But do you have one?
So Joey is a malnourished weakling that Debian has locked up in a dungeon, forced to work on Debian 24/7?
I will apologise for every single insult I have spoken iff you pinpoint it as being an insult and not a statement of fact.
Hurd is a toy. No need for useful things like IPC.
Linux is not ready for mission critical computing.
<aj> What makes you think members of the cabal actually know they're members?
<peterS> A cabal whose members don't realise they're in a cabal isn't much to
speak of
I begin to understand the blurb of rants that cdrecord prints on invocation.
Scepticism is such a wonderful device.
<aj> helix: (YM "they seemed annoyed" right?) <helix> I will not be gender-neutral-language trolled
On occasion, nastiness can be very efficient no matter how much you wish it weren't so.
Hah, Kysh shacking up with SirDibos? Someone put together a proposal to harness the resulting explosion for grid power...
<Joey> s-s and s-p-u use the same buildd chroot as well <elmo> [argh acryonym overload]
Flaming competent coders can be a quick way to become infamous.
<aj> "In the process of preparing to release sarge we have discovered
some inadequacies in the woody security infrastructure. As such,
and in accordance with our "when it's ready" policy, we are
officially unreleasing woody. We hope to be able to once again
release woody as stable in the next few months, sarge should be
released approximately six months later."
Windows Server 2003 is able to deliver on any level, from file and print duty to 5/9s availability.
In Debian, configuration utilities can do anything, no matter how stupid, without it being considered an RC bug.
Open Source web browsers are causing untold damage to businesses around the globe.
The bigger pity, however, is that all you can voice is "it sucks, throw it away".
If you don't have patches, don't tell me how to do things.
Traditionally, Debian is more concerned with maintaining the lifecycle of your system with incremental package upgrades rather than painful release upgrades and operating system re-installs.
Linus has this bad habit of fixing security holes quietly.
You certainly seem to get people motivated. I've never seen Debian developers as united as in some of the threads you've been involved in on d-private. The difficulty I see is that they were all united *against* you.
<jvw> Eh, 1635 leaving at heathrow, 1805 arrival vancouver <jvw> That's 1.5 hour <helix> Haha <helix> Hooray for timezones <jvw> Oh... Dammit
Any maintainer who believes that trying to release "doesn't matter" is invited to file serious bugs against all his optional/extra packages so that the release team can remove them from testing outright rather than worrying about whether they're in a releasable state.
Receiving a flame that you can display at a conference dinner is something to be proud of!
If changing a program makes it better, Debian should do it even if upstream doesn't.
Any cross platform software cannot rely on interface names anyway.
If I dig out a pile of work, the pile comes chasing after me... No need to dig back into it.
If there wouldn't be funny people from time to time, this business would be much harder to stand.
Client-side, we just don't believe Linux is there today.
Debian is about an Operating System, not about DFSG-freeing all the world's copyrighteable items.
Release candidates will pick out a lot of the stupid bugs, and what are plain stupid ideas.
If you are a business that uses Internet Explorer and other businesses are using Firefox, when the next worm hits it's you that suffers. That's directly the fault of Firefox adopters.
<wiggy> Anyone here familiar with dbus? <bob2> wiggy: the Two Daniels <wiggy> 2? He replicated? <StevenK> Jesus, I hope not.
I love it when people answer to "Asshole!"
A BSP means that many DDs and other mere mortals get together to play xroach. Sadly, that package was removed from Debian some time ago, so they have to squash other bugs (preferably RC) instead.
<Joey> Gnarf, Joey and I have reported the same bug. <Joey> I can only pretend that Joey's bug was't visible when I wrote my report. <helix> You're confusing me * helix reminds Joey that he's Joey
I'm just following Debian's philosophy. Debian differentiates between free and non-free stuff; we try to convince other people to change their non-free to free stuff; if we cannot even manage that with the Debian conference, then, well...
I'm stunning we are even having this argument.
I have had my own computer since I turned two. By the time I was nine, my computer ran Debian...
Just do not look at it and it will not bother you.
There's no label saying "if you don't like these wires, remove them".
If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were invented and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete standstill today.
And cars never grow unwanted wires.
Just like any delegate, DPL candidate, or $WHATEVER, I reserve the right to represent myself independently of any official position I have chosen to occupy.
You obviously need to run "apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade" on your car more often.
Basically, upstream is kaputt.
I have no friend nor fans because I don't want to give Google my personal details, life is so unfair.
So we've got this big pile of code we're going to release, and we're going to build an open source groupware system! It's going to be awesome!
AFAIK a lot of the autobuilders are fairly old and laughable machines by today's standards.
We risk breaking lots of programs, but it might be the best option.
The usual sources of problems are slow or broken buildds, broken toolchains and buggy kernels.
madduck: I can give you a week of Ubuntu Love if you like...
So if you've got read access to a 2.6 raw block device you can reformat your oracle database.
If I wanted to hurt Debian users, I'd become a mirror admin.
Referer spammers, however, need to fixed somehow, they make it difficult for me to get my daily dose of egoboosting from reading where people actually link to my pages.
The density of people with a key inside the web of trust should be bigger than the DD density.
I am not sure a key needs to be revoked, it should just have an expiry that forces us to release in time.
I am coming back from the vacation, and it seems all the work that have not been done because of my vacation is right here, waiting for me. Unbelievable!
<wiggy> At least I got some mail for valentine <wiggy> Unfortunately it was a bill
At this point I can't remember the topic anymore and I have no idea what I really wanted to say in the first place.
Violence is the first option of the stupid and the uncivilised.
I feel out of touch with the project. Fortunately elections are starting up again and I can read all the dirt.
A future start-up with no patents of its own will be forced to pay whatever price the giants choose to impose.
If you're going to be a patronising hippie, at least get it right.
Jesus Mother of Fuck, what are you thinking! Do not strap the 'Groupware' albatross around your neck! That's what killed Netscape, are you insane?
I bet most developers have no reason to believe you guys are even real.
If you believe there are legal issues, and you as a member of the board of SPI are not willing to help resolve them, then you should resign from the board.
A race is a race, no matter how small the window.
Honestly, I'd love to talk about these sorts of things more publically; but I'm not willing to do that in an environment that's actively hostile.
Hackers are special; normal rules of human interaction don't apply to them, didn't you get the memo?!
I find it somewhat disturbing that the cabal even exists.
Solaris is, like, the exact opposite of 'optimised for my machine'.
I'd go further and say that if we don't allow hot-babe in while it is *unproven* to be illegal, then we should remove all the patented stuff that are unproven to be enforced, and the stuff that is said patented with unproven patent claims.
Writing an open source dating system is like opening a vegetarian steakhouse.
Because Debian is a volunteer project it is always possible to shed responsibility, but the way to do it is to resign one's position.
(Un)fortunately I lack the time to develop an exploit code.
Why can't art be pornographic and porn be artistic anyway?
If you spend money out of your own pocket to help Debian and want to be repaid you are an evil idiot.
Sorry, but that really sucks. If you are not interested in helping but just want to have your domain name advertised, than please say so, but don't start throwing your sandbox moulds at others who work.
What "Freibier" is for Germans, "keysigning" is for Debian-Guys.
Below a non privileged version of your favourite setuid /sbin/halt command.
"Justice" is an excuse used by people seeking revenge; the universe has no real interest in it.
A promise from SPI to pay is not the same as a check in hand.
If there's one thing I know about the security business, it's that it's FULL of extremes.
Try this if you don't understand: awk 'NR >= 258 && NR <= 278' /usr/share/common-licenses/GPL
Moria is a game I wrote some 20 years ago. Hard to believe anyone would still be playing it.
This abomination should be thrown away and rewritten to do as it promises, and not to generate broken configurations.
If you're just going to curse about our work without having suggestions how to do things better, kindly jump into the next lake.
This business of supporting 11 architectures and making sure they're all 100% right before releasing is just about the worst idea ever.
These days, Debian is "infrastructure".
The more people believe that releasing does not matter, the longer it takes the rest of us to pull off a release.
Which is clearly a nonsensical interpretation, which means that you should probably reboot your English parser, as it seems to have been contaminated with some kind of rigid programming language semantics.
Yes, born within 60 miles of Oxford, my English is as English as it gets, except when I talk dialect. Try another tactic.
Doesn't this rather make it seem like you're pissing in the wind?
DRM in media sold to customers is increasingly looking like a noisy, pointless sideshow to a real infringement problem.
Guests can bring their own food, Ganneff will to a gogo-dance showing his beautifull legs, and I will sing songs.
Murphy's law applied to buildds: It's always the arch you don't have access to that fails. If you eventually get access, another one will randomly fail.
BGP is just a misspelling of borg, you know.
I always care about other people's pain. I spend many hours every day ensuring that it continues.
I can be combative, irrational and mean tempered.
The DPL should do everything possible to ensure that a decision is reached, and that people agree with that decision.
Taking care of the social aspects of Debian is important to the health of the project.
Someone needs to slap a huge "you can't treat va_arg like a random pointer" sticker all over gnome upstream...
However, since this appears to be the year for total failure to comprehend how the process works, I would like to take this opportunity to nominate 14 kilos of mature cheddar cheese, the entire population of Swaziland, and a dead camel, as a single candidate for Debian Project Leader.
I must admit, I spent enough of the weekend tired, drunk etc. that I don't remember who exactly was in charge of the Debian booth.
Giving someone a shove down the stairs isn't a real winning strategy to starting a journey.
The cabal recognizes its peers.
Regardless of original intent, DWN is currently the Debian tabloid press.
I'm very sorry but attempting to measure cabal power by frequency of discussion in public news forums is obviously naive.
Your web site certainly was controversial. The evidence for that is the controversy.
Linus is a good developer, but is a terrible engineer.
The DPL exists in order to ensure that the developers are able to make appropriate decisions, not to make those decisions himself.
I'm just waiting for someone figure out that Ubuntu doesn't have to manage a world wide net of mirrors and then jump up and yell that we should drop the mirror network so we can release amd64.
Debian developers are perhaps the strictest adherents to open source and Free Software development methodology due to their Social Contact.
There are certain things that we simply cannot release without.
Apparently Debian works just fine without me, which is how it should be.
Support that is not actively advertised and only offered as response to a request of a _big_ customer is non-support.
There are small KDE applications that require most of the KDE dependency chain to be installed, while on the other hand XFree86's build dependency list is (relatively) small.
Ubuntu should not be used as an example of an alternative way to make releases before they actually demonstrate that they can do it, at the very least.
The DPL needs to ensure that discussions happen.
Let's call it the "reality gap" which we are facing here.
Godwin's Law isn't invoked if the content it refers to is on-topic.
I'd love to see groups like debian-chocolate-lovers, debian-nudists (gnudists?), debian-corporate, or debian-world-domination emerge.
One of the benefits of starting a project is that you get to choose the name.
Dammit man! It's a list of women in Debian! Men are not women! Get a hobby!
Things don't have to be in main to exist, you know.
Krooger is like Debian's dirty little secret.
As long as the major vendors say "Linux" and mean "SuSE and/or Redhat", there is no support for Debian.
As usual, it's not a good sign when you have to create explicit exceptions for commonly used products like these.
Traditions like that aren't easy to change, though (that's why we call them traditions).
It seems to me that the roughest porn on sale and display on the streets of Amsterdam is tame by Internet standards.
Note that Ubuntu's legislative makeup is somewhat different.
I'm really a technology whore.
Any definition of source code, to be useful to the Debian Project in applying our Free Software Guidelines, has to be broadly applicable.
I would like Debian to show more respect for me, by removing Emacs and KDE.
Remember that the buildd queue is not FIFO at all.
Every time you use Tcl, God kills a kitten.
If you expect DPMS to work right, don't.
It's seems that the actual teams found they are overloaded, so as they don't want to share their powers and call for help (even worse, they refuse help), they prefer to drop architectures.
It's simply not fair, distributing a picture of a nice looking meal like that, without the source.
Stop inventing bogus arguments to justify your point.
I'm personally more in favour of mips* as release archs than some others because you're doing such a good job.
When you have to have 10 buildds running to keep up with unstable, it's very difficult to get a big-picture view of the security of your binary uploads.
Never give permission to do something you do not know what it is.
Debian doesn't have to be mirrored anywhere.
Thanks for confirming that cluestick waving can have results other than lowering the waver's cholesterol count.
Looking through kernel IPv4 frag code doesn't give me any warm fuzzy feelings about the safety of the code.
* liiwi prefers dselect * Joey too, it was so intuitive.
What would happen if someone made a DFSG version of Leisure Suite Larry!
That Linux kernel is so stable and reliable that seems so obscene and offensive to me.
Debian can be used to draw a picture of naked people.
frozen-bubble is a menace to society.
If the GNU Manifesto was under a Free license, then Debian would distribute it, without any coersion.
If you live in a country where you could be thrown in jail because someone gave you a CD-ROM containing almost 650MB worth of software of which less than half a meg contains nudity cartoons, I think you have a bigger problem than said nudity.
Only in a free society we can have this debate.
The majority of porn sold in Amsterdam might not be considered to be porn at all by standards of the "Internet community".
Australian beer is a fantastic catalyst for dpkg development.
A significant number of packages in Debian are not integral to Debian.
Most of the people in the US were Christians. Most of the slave owners were Christians, and used the same Bible to provide justification.
Requiring gender equality is obviosly pretty damn sexist.
For the vegans we'll make a Bob The Angry Flower theme for hotbabe.
I wonder how could text be written such that the question whether it invites to kill someone bloodily is open to interpretation.
It is much, much worse. There is a picture of naked animal there.
Gender is a choice. You just offended a whole bunch of transsexuals.
Some of my friends are missing since 9/11 and they are Iranien. FBI, CIA and Homeland Security has done a good job to recrute new terrorists...
Pornography is widely regarded as being demeaning and insulting to women.
Debian is not Project Gutenberg. Debian is about software.
It's more complicated than you think.
This is a non-flamewar about a non-case about non-photographs of non-pornography
I hereby declare that there may be some jurisdictions which prohibit files that contain the string "perens.com" anywhere in them.
I love how Debian has no sacred cows.
Go away and don't come back until you have read the mailing list code of conduct.
Once in a while I have the right to ask someone else to take on a problem.
So are you saying I should take my web pages of my naked dogs down?
How does "a picture of dogs copulating" get morphed into "bestiality"?
Just because people vote in a way that you might not does not mean they are uninformed.
Aren't men people too?
The female body is beautiful. Why would drawing/displaying a picture of a woman be insulting to anyone?
Ad hominem attacks don't bring value to your sayings.
tech-ctte has no jurisdiction over non-technical matters.
Reality check: There are no photographs of women in this thread.
<zobel> Wah, vorlon did a mass bug filing on php4 and I
can't find the announcement on debian-devel@
<vorlon> Would you like me to post-announce it?
I'm a one-man cabal, so everything I say should be regarded as propaganda.
I have an eggplant and two zucchinis here, which I intend to cook in tonight or tomorrow. Want me to take pics?
I'm afraid Xprint is a political football.
If there was a perfect solution to spam, we'd all be using it already.
You didn't report the bug, you aren't the maintainer, and now you are playing BTS wars.
Just look to buildd.d.o, if the package is uploaded, it's uploaded. building is building, and installed is installed.
You know you've made it in life when someone on Slashdot compares you to Bruce Perens in an unfavourable light.
I'm amazed at how little people seem to have done to inform themselves about all the candidates, myself.
Both a senior Novell executive and a prominent open-source attorney told me that if Microsoft ever tries to push too hard with its patents, other companies are more than ready to counter-attack with their own patent portfolios.
It's hard to take an anonymous entity named "foo bar baz boo deb" seriously.
<nobse> 2.6.11 doesn't build on alpha.
<nobse> Same shit every new kernel release.
<ths> Normal. Fix all the subarches and 2.6.12
will be out in the meanwhile (and break it again).
When you vote, remember, code is more important than commercials.
ITPs are for trying to prevent duplication of effort, they aren't exclusive locks over the packaging of something.
Maintaining a package requires a fairly serious time commitment.
The milestone that included the start of the official security support for sarge was only 6 days after the announcement, but is was missed by more than 6 months.
Yuck. Didn't we learn "anything" from shar files?
Fair use is an American perversion.
Where's the warranty disclaimer? This can't be the full thing.
Without public information, there is no discussion.
Soon in Debian has its very own special meaning.
Rest in peaces!
I was forcibly exposed to statistics during formal education.
Sundays are all about using the free time you have to procrastinate about doing the things that you never had time to procrastinate about doing during the week since you were far too busy procrastinating about the far more important things that you were going to put off until Sunday when of course you have much more time to procrastinate about them.
Do not make the mistake of thinking the boot-floppies were maintainable.
Patching debian/rules sounds like changing shoes while running the 100 meters track.
I wonder how you seriously can assume that burning the bridges was a great idea.
Many of our users come to Debian because they want a community-developed, binary-based distribution.
m68k doesn't have ten buildd boxes just because we feel like it.
You can still buy new Amigas.
Pinning is such a powerful tool, and nobody seems to really understand it.
Well, I had never heard of anyone crazy enough to patch debian/rules at runtime... You're the first.
<Yoe> what filesystem is gluck running off of? <ths> A broken one. :-) <Yoe> Apparently
I do not consider the firmware itself to be a derived work at all.
Where do fully automated bug preventing techniques really work in Debian?
A survey is the worst possible way to answer any question [..]
Politness is optional.
Debian explicitly considers the ability to modify and reuse a work to be crucial and fundamental.
It only took 3 upload attempts to get it's build-depends building.
The best way to combat off-topicness is by encouraging on-topic discussion.
Don't pester the developers so much that they don't get any work done. They are already aware of my problems.
May the Fo...err... Source be with you!
That's such a great idea, that it has already been implemented.
A free project can't go insolvent and can't be taken over.
I do not see any dead trees here. Only software.
So the Inquisition was a bug caused in the execution of the bible?
At least you all are missing the point in amusing ways.
Bear in mind that people outside Debian might not be familiar with our usual linguistic gymnastics.
You can compete with me, but you can't do so by riding on my coat-tails.
Manuals are not software in the broader sense.
Free Software does not guarantee the ability to make others accept the changes you make to your copy.
I have this terrible allergy to unsubstantiated assertions.
I feel the difference of productivity by programming languages.
Lots of non-free stuff is useful and important.
Standards documents, even if unmodifiable, are useful.
That's an organizational null pointer.
I'm always highly suspicious of technologies that have thousands of fanboys and developers of questionable competence.
It doesn't take much time to think about a removal request I myself suggested.
We'd rather have a big happy Alpha compiling packages and making its space consumption a useful phenomena.
<Alfie> Debian is doomed..... <Alfie> Upstream Author: Microsoft Corporation <Alfie> Package: pptview
Also, just because a sentence has the word "copyright" and "notice" in it doesn't mean that the sentence is a copyright notice (otherwise this sentence would be a copyright notice).
I have this thing called a day job which sometimes take priority over reading debian-legal postings.
<Manoj> Well, dvt was _supposed_ to be simple <Manoj> It only took 2 weeks to write <moshez> It requires a *diagram* to explain what each part does.
Discussing legal issues is all cool and nice for those that appreciates such sport, but it doesn't really make sense if it is not applied to acts later on.
Does anyone knows a solution to let packages FTBFS on buildd's which architecure are not supported by the software?
I've gotten along with elmo from time to time. We're just both ashamed of it.
Isn't it part of the ritual that when you burn the maintainer, you send his packages with him into the afterlife?
<wiggy> not a real surprise afaik <luca> wiggy: insmod sarcasm.o
Debian has nothing to do with Microsoft or SCO. Please don't put the three in the same bucket.
You know, Richard [Stallman] is in many ways a walking advertisement for the advantages of not compromising - when you have a long-term goal whose achievement requires dogged long-term effort over decades.
Debian may not be much fun any more, but at least it is predictable.
Ability to modify and reuse a work are absolutely fundamental to a work being free.
I would add that, if your system allows random users to replace login by such a program, then you have much other problems than phising.
A pointer subtraction is a pointer addition, of a negative number.
Or is "FSF policy" more or less another name for "the views of Richard M. Stallman"?
When did license incompatibility become a freeness issue?
If you don't want people writing clients for your protocol, don't give the server a "help" command.
Just because something has been used for a long time does not mean it is be bug free.
What I like about Manoj is his desire for simple and small solutions. Like EMACS. Or dvt.
If I was a native american, my name would be Runswithoutswap.
Snapshot just has much better (i.e., existing) indexing.
For the first time in my life, I want to thank Larry McVoy.
Once upon a time, Debian was famous for it's working upgrades.
Instead of replying and beating a dead, burried, and already decomposed horse, just go read the archives.
Ever wonder what COBOL and Latin have in common? They have both been called dead languages but knowing them can be very useful.
I don't want to displace this obviously-useful conversation, but perhaps we could finish with the board meeting?
This has the makings of a train wreck.
Since this is a local hole, we have a lot of control over the evolution of the heap.
Debian's mailing lists are its nervous system, and our list archives our collective memory.
Debian is kinda like office space. Do something right, noone notices. Do one thing wrong, all the big names in the project lart you.
Ganneff looks like a big baby.
Added bonus: If I get run over by a bus, I get millions of mourners.
We do have to deal with php_safemode braindead semi-chrooting somehow.
I erase drives by taking them apart because those magnets work really well at holding photographs onto my fridge.
Itanium systems represent the next generation of high-end computing platforms.
There seems to be just as many people who do not want the mboxes to be available as people who do.
Looking at the bug log, it seems that you had no business increasing the severity in the first place.
As usual I have a pretty good timing writing mails to spread confusion.
- fatal("decode_addr: unsafe IP address"); + self_destruct();
The lightbulb just went plink! Time to set a light coloured background on the monitor instead.
The Enterprise Ready Linux Distributions out there will never EVER reach the quality level Debian ships with.
It is not possible to send mail to a Debian mailing list any more without offending somebody.
Mitre say that to allocate the CVE names strictly according to the rules this would be 65 CVE names.
Sarge: I think this'll be the first release I'll really celebrate. Like by getting very drunk, the first time in my life.
The purpose of the FDL seems to be to prevent debugging or development of selected parts of a manual that the author considers perfect.
<Joey> Hmm,... Did people already forgot what a freeze meant?
<azeem_> It's been five years or so since the last freeze
- we are all getting older
I don't think 1.x kernels are vulnerable.
A DD in Iran will possible make debian-women jump in triangles.
Most performance analysis suggests that hyperthreading is not generally a performance win.
The GPL does not grant permission to distribute under the GFDL, nor does the GFDL grant permission to distribute under the GPL.
Setting goals is the easy part of release management.
That's an innovative way to reach consensus: killfile anyone who disagrees.
Brains. One should use them.
A survey that is sent out to a mailing list in the hope that people will respond to it has a built-in sampling bias that you can drive a truck through.
I don't believe in suicide, and I certainly don't care what Maureen O'Gara thinks about me. So if you hear about my "suicide", it isn't one.
You might as well say that book publishers are contributing to infringement because books are so easy to photocopy.
GnuTLS is for people who are interested in security. Windows is for people who aren't.
I really don't care what you think I sound like.
<eddyp> What in God's name does "degenerate filename" mean in a dpkg context?
<asuffield> Yeah, that's a real dpkg moment. "Worsel the green clear? [K/p]"
<vorlon> eddyp: Has anyone else successfully translated that string?
<vorlon> (in other languages)
<asuffield> This is the point when you discover that the french translation
says "This message is unintelligable crap"
The number of directory entries in /usr/lib should not make any difference to a modern GNU linker on a modern filesystem, unless you have thousands or millions of them.
The quality of software I'm getting from you people is abysmal.
You probably can't mix GPL and GFDL materials (The GPL and GFDL both demand you distribute under their own terms only, and you obviously can't do both, since the terms are different).
How is building the package locally equivalent to infringement?
I apologise for the fact that your crap laptop is crap.
Do people really need a full lex/yacc-based parser in a *pam* module?
<helix> Only with my "fuck off" boots on <Clint> Are those like fuck-me pumps gone wrong?
All businesses based on non-free software ought to fail, and the sooner the better.
Oh, you print your posters on toilette paper?
The rate at which the release team's involvement would have to ramp up again for a 12-month cycle wouldn't leave me enough time to breathe.
Your mail was borderline incomprehensible and certainly not worth the effort it would have required for me to read it. Go and eat a dictionary.
IMHO there's currently too much hurry in the release timelines.
Mark, not everyone who criticises Debian is attempting to destroy us.
If you can't fix it correctly then leave it broken.
Philosophy is strong stuff and has been known to cloud the mind.
<Joey> I plan to cease woody support one year after the sarge
release or at the etch release, whatever happens earlier.
While Debian is certainly about beer, and in some cases may even be about free beer, Debian is mainly about free speech.
No source code was hurt while doing this NMU.
Prior heated discussions somehow preclude the application of common sense?
I don't care how quickly you package it, we're not promoting a totally new package from unstable to stable in the space of a week.
To say that Debian is no longer just for geeks would be an exaggeration.
Open source has the benefit for not fighting against the anti-capitalist concept that comes with free software.
The thing about Bunk which is annoying is the way he is continually searching for reasons to destroy testing by proving it bad, and continually *failing*.
Im not a master, just a slave.
The use of copyright to legislate software distribution is a pain.
<liw> You know, Debian will have really taken over the world when porn
stars start taking on pseudonyms modeled after Debian developers.
<liw> like... Lara Witchnius
Linux has never been about quality.
Sarge is once again proof that communities can do great things -- even communities of irritable, cantankerous, grudge-holding, flaming Free Software nuts.
I have more delay in reading mail than reading IRC.
The release announcement is prepared at the moment. This could take like 3 weeks (with editorial changes at the end).
I have better things to do with my life than remember everybody's preferred name, spelling or pronoun.
Anyone who connects to the Internet will eventually (usually sooner rather than later) come into contact with every form of pornography that the mind can conceive.
<madduck> You know the difference between Debian and MacOS? <fjp> They both run on intel? <madduck> Almost. Debian will run on PowerPC in the future too.
First, Apple switches to Intel, and now, equally shocking: Debian Sarge is released!
Rapid replacements of libraries break local binaries.
The theory is that since we haven't set a date for sarge's release yet, it can't possibly be late, and that therefore adding more people will make it release sooner.
There's nothing wrong with destructive criticism.
It's amazing that there are so many terminals and still none of them gets the actual terminal emulation part as correct as xterm.
If you're helping to ensure that testing lives up to its promise of being constantly releasable, it sounds to me like you're doing release work whether you want to or not.
Official Debian releases have a reputation for having older software versions.
As for ZDnet, you might have a point if their hatchet jobs were aimed solely at the Rebel Alliance but they publish lots of "Experts say Death Star contains exploitable reactor shaft flaw" type stories too.
You can't correct a delay of one and a half years by squeezing a few weeks off the freeze time.
Is the Cabal supposed to be the pendant of the Godwin point for Debian-related discussions?
I don't know which project you've been part of, but this has always been the case in Debian for me. There are certain individuals known to be difficult, but most of them are just as friendly and eager to help. So unless you are very thin-skinned, you quickly learn whom to avoid.
Dovecot is to IMAP servers as icecream is to sex.
I'm trying to walk that fine line of trying to keep our library packages out of the hands of idiots without getting my own name put in the maintainer field.
Reading -announce lists is just another way of submitting to the will of The Man.
Yes. "Canonical" actually means "Cabal". There. Happy now?
Basically, we don't need GPL. It's based on the belief that open source software is weak and needs to be protected. With it, we continue injuring ourselves, cutting ourselves from the economic benefits of BSD license.
We Mexicans are known for taking too long to do things... So, nine days after Sarge stabilized, yesterday we had our release party.
Sayin something like 'this is wrong' in debian-legal discussion smells a bit like 'you're wrong I'm right, nya nya, I can't hear you'.
I forgot that Canonical's business model is to use Ubuntu as a staging area for Debian, so that we're always lagging behind.
To achieve Total World Domination, we need to support every architecture out of there.
Just Conflict with the git package. The overlapping user base is likely to be nil.
I think Debian annoys enough people already without adding more ways.
Remove the stick from your butthole and stop bitching at great length about a few offhanded comments observing that some people have made themselves difficult to communicate with.
The ongoing slang 2 transition has helped keep things interesting.
These days, any moron and their father can set up a mail server with proper queuing.
Why pay someone else to do what I can do myself for free?
I certainly feel this resolution is both foolish and stupid.
I think Ubuntu is a good thing for Debian precisely because it will take away some of Debian's users.
Can we create a debian-thanks-joey list? It would probably get more traffic than debian-security.
OpenSSL The code is the crypto equivalent of Heathrow Airport.
The period just after a stable Debian release has always been an interesting time.
I don't know anything about testing security. Heck, I even don't know about stable-security and oldstable-security.
People find alternatives over time.
Use just a *little* bit of common sense. Oh, wait, common sense doesn't exist in Debian.
Calling an argument stupid is another way of saying you disagree with it but cannot be bothered to adduce your own arguments.
The Debian Policy does not, and cannot, have a rule for every case where some judgement is to be applied while making Debian packages.
It's been suggested to rename "erect penis" into "DPL's tentacle".
There's no limit to what people can be offended about.
I have a penis, I'm not offended by it.
Debugging is unpredictable, since a single bug can hold clueless developers hostage for long time.
You can either keep bitching or move on and try to get etch finished.
Well, woody was 3.0, sarge was 3.1, so the logical next number would be 3.11 for Workgroups.
Dummy packages work, and have the advantage that it's very clear what is going on.
Encouraging people so inexperienced as to post stupid RFSes to upload more things to Debian is not particularly productive.
People brought drinks from all over the world. They are gone
Even if dummy packages fulfill their mission, I believe better solutions are in order.
I prefer a new header better than overloading the semantic of the existing headers.
I know there's a buffer overflow in zlib, I sent the advisory.
Most people do Debian as a hobby but for Joey my impression is that he spends more time on Debian than other people on their job.
Be aware of the fact that diverting conffiles doesn't work.
Nah, Thom's not my type, I'll take James any day though.
When you are soso, you deserve nothing.
<madduck> Could you write a howto? <liiwi> What is this, Gentoo-county?
I refuse to use udev until it's maintainer learns how to properly maintain packages.
StevenK to madduck: I will do anything you say for the next five hours.
Look, I am the libdvdcss author, I do the libdvdcss Debian packages, I am a Debian maintainer, I should know if Marillat butchers my software. And he does.
Ignoring questions about the package (whether machine-assisted or through pure human means) is not a sign of an improperly maintained package.
Perhaps, with the funds being held for us by SPI, it would be useful to arrange for you to have a 'refresher' course in dealing with the media.
It's not exactly normal for things to crash unless you statically link a particular library.
The reason for Joey being listed that often is that he really lives Debian.
The good news about operating systems is that there's a choice. The bad news about operating systems is that there's a choice.
Seeing all kinds of people get naked is some experience that I won't forget easily.
Listen to your computer! It knows better what you should or should not be doing.
At the end, we had found absolutely nothing. I.e. no evidence of any copyright infringement whatsoever.
Shop or hack is the fundamental decision you have to make with a lot of desktop Linux stuff.
Now I'm known as the girl who broke dpkg by looking at it too hard.
The reward for a job well done will generally just be another, probably harder, job.
Receiving huge volumes of spam is a bad idea.
Please wave your weenie somewhere else, please.
If you're pretty much automatically accepting any kind of contribution it's not a Debian package any more.
What I like of you is your reasonableness and common sense.
I fail to see how our social contract allows us to be that arrogant.
It's plain stupid to rely on someone else to get your security working correctly.
I am working on the maintainer on this now.
asuffield: Do you ever have anything good to say about other people?
Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof brings up memories of a horrible night in lovely company
Blogging is a great way to let off steam.
Many people also understand that software without support and maintenance loses much of its value.
Somehow I have the impression that Ian Murdock knows a little bit about Debian - we don't need to explain how it works to him. I think. Maybe.
Thanks a lot and sorry for taking such a long time to come to you.
Best practice used to be to ask questions only when there was no sensible default whatsoever.
If you can link it with proprietary code, you can also link it to code under the OpenSSL license.
I don't know much about the SH port either, except that it's been dead for years now.
Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.
In general you should avoid hard coding paths like this unless you have a specific reason. And even then you should not use hard coded paths.
* dpkg eats madduck, *CHOMP* *CHOMP* *CHOMP* and catches Mad Cow Disease
I think that none of these things warrant a major version bump, and the Debian major version number should be increased with releases of fspanel.
I suspect that any effective trademark policy is going to be inconsistent with Debian's founding goals.
If only they'd redefine pi again while they were at it, we could save even more energy not writing all those decimal places down.
Recently Debian seems to have grown a very large set of toes that is impossible not step onto.
You confuse counting with labeling. Are we counting releases or labeling them?
In general, we don't have to address this with a trademark policy. The wrath of a dozen or so Debian developers is probably sufficient.
It's not like there's not enough spam mail sent to security@d.o already.
The votes will continue until the board produces the Right Answer?
<someone> What happens when we run out of toy story characters? <madduck> someone: then we use types of cheese. <madduck> Debian Gruyère - aged 3 years
Debian is unique in its balance between caring principally about the source yet providing trustworthy binaries.
Traditionally, Mozilla doesn't have any security support in Debian.
It's quite fun living on the bleeding edge of software, until after you apt-get upgrade one day and notice a bleeding stump where your X server used to be.
Ya know, there is exactly one thing that could cause me to sign up for a bugzilla account anywhere: sufficiently large sums of money.
Unfortunately we don't have a good solution to the problem of dealing with a package where upstream are untrustworthy lying bastards.
We could use LiGNUx als a fallback.
Apparently, GNOME is not appealing to women or I'm not, or it's not flashy enough.
Debian-based distributions are an ecosystem now and that's not the fault of nor limited to Ubuntu.
Anyone knows how the caffeine support at ApacheCon looks like?
DanielS: Are you paid to annoy people or you do it for free?
Many free software developers are know to have bad social skills.
<Joey> > clone 247452 -1 <Joey> Bug number 247452 not found. <aba> Aua
Complete idiocy does not deserve any respect.
All involved in the making rock my world like crazy.
Maybe he was thinking about Frankfurt/main and Frankfurt/contrib?
Shall I revoke my signature on your key, so we can happily sign again?
If we use easier tools than the rest of Debian, we are doing ourselves an injustice.
xsupplicant mine attending debconf I am please do not hurt me
One can rm -rf / too.
The one observation I have while doing the booth was the complete lack of females approaching the booth.
A weblog: blogs run by twenty-something Americans with at least an unhealthy interest in computers.
It's much easier to assign blame than to understand what people are saying.
<Nigel> If I had vorlons knowledge of Debian bugs etc,
I'd most likely be worried + seeing a shrink.
<vorlon> I only see shrinks when I mix alcohol with medication;
and they go away when my vision clears up
I will killfile Andrew Suffield so I do not recieve Debian list email from him but only if 100 other people on Debian lists will too.
Do you seriously think that a new organization which hasn't actually talked to Debian at all before being created will help bring some of these closer to Debian proper?
It's pathetic -- as well as amusing -- to watch representatives of multimillion-dollar corporations shell out their hard-earned cash to buy what amounts to bottles of freshly packaged air.
Larry can take Unicode and shove it up his ass sideways.
<mrvn> If computers were spaceships we could fly to
Alpha Centaury and be back for lunch.
<madduck> Yeah, and explode on the way back when it's an odd day, or
full moon, or somewhere in the universe someone whistles wrongly.
<lifeless> Exactly.
Compromises suck, by definition. Seek solutions instead.
The notion of a "pledge to killfile" Andrew is thoroughly juvenile.
What horrors of censorship these killfiles are.
Communication involves not only how responses look to oneself but how they look to other people.
I reject this notion that communication is a popularity contest.
We should permit Debian Developers to be as obnoxious as they like to our users without anything more than hand-wringing or expressions of dismay?
Enthusiasm is one of the most important ingredients a volunteer project runs on.
Vista is evidentally latvian for "hen", and "perating system", that is, OS without the o, means "system for making eggs." So vista is at least useful come breakfast time?
[after the glibc 2.3.5 upload to unstable]
<doogie> /usr/lib/kaffe/pthreads-profile/jre/bin/kaffe-bin: relocation
error: /usr/lib/kaffe/pthreads-profile/jre/bin/kaffe-bin:
symbol __libc_stack_end, version GLIBC_PRIVATE not defined in
file ld-linux.so.2 with link time reference
<doogie> Anything recent that may have caused this to break?
<vorlon> doogie: what, like a new glibc?
<doogie> Isn't glibc backwards compatible?
<vorlon> Not when it says GLIBC_ bloody PRIVATE
What I'm objecting to, and fighting, is a culture which is even willing to consider a presumption of guilt and a vigilante mob.
There is one important difference between FidoNet and Debian however, Debian has a collective aim that involves working together.
Why does expressing disruptive ideas need be rude or disruptive?
I think that IRC would be a much nicer place if people would masturbate BEFORE joining.
Running Emacs as network service. That's something I have always wanted to do.
The programs, scripts and infrastructure that comprise and facilitate the development of a distribution such as Debian are, for the most part, technically complex.
I feel hurt and offended by your anti-sexism. Sex is a beautiful and pleasurable thing, without which humanity could not exist.
It may come as a surprise to you, but listmasters don't follow all posts on all 180-odd lists that we host.
The operating system exception deliberately does not apply when you are distributing an operating system.
After the upgrade we called Mark telling him we found a way to compress RAM up to 50%. He was close to fire both elmo and me.
Perl 5 was my rewrite of Perl. I want Perl 6 to be the community's rewrite of Perl and of the community.
I will no more be able to flame someone I've been naked with in a Finnish sauna.
I regularly say that every form of theft and fraud in the real world will eventually be duplicated in cyberspace.
I find those constant ABI and toolchain changes pretty annoying, this is really killing a lot of productive work.
<Beowulf> Damn, it went out of my mind right now.
I was away. Even I can't be online 24h/7d.
madduck: debconf is a perl program. It is not subject to double free bugs.
Anybody who ignores such errors is truly incapable of intelligent thought.
I wasn't aware that the EU promotes click-through licenses. Is this really an official document?
The concepts behind blogging are not difficult to understand, nor is it difficult to throw one onto the Internet.
A book length document is no piece of cake to write.
I think total cost of ownership studies are stupid.
I'm taking a crash course in parenting teenagers, which is fundamentally different from parenting pre-teens. It's not even like switching from vi to emacs.
The whole point of slashdot is to have this big public wanking session with people getting together and making their own "insightful" comment on any random topic, whether they know anything about it or not.
Linking against openssl where gnutls support seems to be available is at least an annoyance.
We should start using the LSB, not just talk about trying to be LSB conforming.
After a week of Debconf friendlyness, I see that we might easily fall again in our usual flaming style.
If I have been rude in a previous message (sorry) is because I've seen a wishlist item becoming a "RC bug" by way of "unknown" magic.
Do it. Pop the trunk.
Sorta like a Moebius strip, except it involves sticking one's head up one's own ass.
So this license is certainly on the right track. But we really don't need yet another copyleft license which is not GPL-compatible, do we?
How can I umount a bind mount if I've deleted the directory I bind mounted.
Well since you're reporting a bug against a *Web* browser, I don't think it's too crazy to assume you can actually access the web.
A new Debian maintainer is also a Ubuntu maintainer in some sense.
It's rather pathetic that the Debian mentors site doesn't run the operating system that's the reason for its existence.
Actually, I use postfix.
Creating a fork is a means of improving Debian.
On a technical level, udev is too Gentoo for me, it's far from stable, and thus far from non-optional integration into Debian.
As with many of my projects, there was a significant lack of time.
Etch is currently so stalled. I upgraded the other day and got only 5 packages.
Junichi is both amazing and insane at the same time.
You mean David Miller is the only upstream kernel guy for sparc? Hell -- even m68k is doing better.
If you ask me any bug is worth fixing, also if only a single user complained about the problem.
It's still useful to have a package which lets one practically test one's scripts for POSIX compatibility, but it just doesn't make any sense to enforce this level of strictness archive-wide.
<Overfiend> description: The requested resource () is not available. <Overfiend> I like that description. <Overfiend> Very informative.
We can't keep the same ABI and toolchain forever, can we?
#! /bin/sh
# Do the Solaris Dance:
if [ ! -d ~root ] ; then
exec /usr/xpg4/bin/sh $0 "$@"
fi
The Mozilla code is so ugly and intertwined that backporting patches is a battle you can't win without employing a couple of upstream developers.
Microsoft pushes out additional code changes along with security updates to make the task for BinDiff harder.
"Ey" is good for everybody, even the genderqueer.
With errors like that, debugging must be a breeze.
Having had experience dealing with OpenLDAP, I'd be happy to have just /anything/ else.
Of course there are degrees of insanity. Ranging from those who worship Apple to those who think it's a good career choice to stand up in the middle of the exam room and pee all over their final exam.
Freedom is not having to ask permission.
* neuro wonders again why time was spent setting up testing-security, only to never be used by anyone...
It's soon going to be illegal to take notes at all, or gather people in public, for fear of revolution or the spread of ideas in general.
It doesnt matter what you have said or ment. What matters in communication is what the other party or parties understood.
There are lots of reasons not to use Linux. There just aren't any good ones.
Now we need to get Joerg to take the quiz. If he doesn't score as high as you, he must approve your NM application now, no?
I thought NM is "build a hoop, teach ants to jump through it, then write a book about it".
I think I want to fork GCC. Any time a compiler warning or error would be spewed, my version would just say: gcc: somethings wrong d00d
Looks like segfaultorama.
Free software taught me that I could learn and grow without someone telling me that I could.
There was a girl who wanted to win the pun competition, and so she submitted ten. But as luck would have it, she didn't win; no pun intended.
Wouter is annoyed by Gnome. And I understand him.
The idea of losing a bunch of useful historical data when landing a large patch from a co-developer is one of the things about some distributed RCS systems that gives me the screaming horrors.
Go with the MIT license unless you've got a *really* good reason not to.
I try to avoid depending on software written by crazy people.
Using false statements as part of a license doesn't seem like a very good idea to me.
I don't think you can call something programmed in PHP "derived from PHP".
I fail to see how more machines make system administration easier.
Unstable is, first and foremost, the staging ground for the next stable release.
Why the hell would users of "GNU Interactive Tools" use them non-interactively?
Given the context, it would probably make more sense to rename it to IGNOREME.
Inadequate security can be worse than no security at all.
Debian is not a commercial entity just because it also sells T-Shirts and other stuff.
<Overfiend> How am I supposed to parasitically leech cycles off your
neurons if you don't answer my questions? Selfish bastards.
So LWN did this article (subscriber only) and somehow I found myself with tons of mails about Debian and security in my inbox and hours spent on IRC too today. Almost as if I were the other Joey.
A few days ago I installed sarge and found it the worst Debian distro because no new features is valuable to me.
I'll file a bug against Exim, the maintainer is stupid anyway.
Noone ever noticed XFree86.org releasing 4.5, did you? XFree86.org has gone entirely off the FLOSS radar.
<calc> They use GPL code indiscriminantly from what my supervisor told me
<Overfiend> Indiscriminantly? They can't determine how many roots
the parse tree has?
"One size fits all" methods are a bad idea.
I wonder how many of the people who constantly whine about Debian removing non-free documentation have ever thanked the authors of any of the many free docs in Debian for their work?
If I would make my living as an entertainer or comedian, I would have to live on social security or be hungry.
We should strive to increase the quality in Debian.
<Overfiend> #d-d is supposed to be faster than Google, damn it.
If you publish something on the web, you should be prepared never to see the back of it, no matter what desire you express on the site.
You are quite immune to pressure from your peer group.
<ari> are you guys waiting for the FBI agents to raid the channel <asuffield> what are they going to do, confiscate all the stupid? * doogie suddenly finds himself alone in the channel
Contrary to popular belief, this list does not exist to serve as a safe haven for the legally delusional.
Well, I didn't lable it, I don't need it.
We're so free we removed all of our documentation!
<Md> Is there anybody around who owns a ZIP IDE drive?
<asuffield> I am not rummaging in my pile of hardware just to locate my old
zip drive for some hotplug bullshit that I don't care about
<Md> I love you too
Too bad I hadn't done all this sooner. I've already had one visit by the FBI, apparently it is considered bad form to request a senator's head be placed on a pike!
<eigood> vorlon: so, write a library <eigood> like pam * vorlon vomits
Wow, you've got a powerpc-unknown-linux-gnu system!
Making scripts more complex and harder to read for some dubious efficiency is not a good idea in my opinion.
Will udev become an editor and MTA too, maybe after etch?
Are you asking to put FSF's officers in jail?
Yeah, sometimes I'm more right than other times. That wasn't one of them.
I'm unconvinced it's possible to make PHP behave sensibly in general.
Using Mozilla and KDE as examples how woody security support has been dropped while there have been some 40 updates to woody at the same time is a fascinating approach to prove anything.
MySQL aims to become the Ikea of the database market. Good looking but cheaply made and breaks when you look at it wrong?
<dato> a Gentoo user explained to me once what their support
for different architectures was.
<dondelelcaro> That must have hurt
The next advisory on X should just say: New bug, m'kay?
DDs should not steal credit from maintainers.
Power loops are a bad idea.
The reality is that alioth is unmaintained.
Trying to reduce the memory usage of make/sh when building packages is almost always a false optimization.
Please prevent me from becoming a top ten bug reporter.
The package has to build libraries with differently versioned symbols as well, to avoid total app meltdown if both libraries are loaded into the same address space.
* Rhonda suggests to rename security.debian.org to lamp.debian.org because it hosts all the packages these days....
A program that requires documentation is a design failure.
Finnish summer contains quite a lot of sunlight, except when there is heavy rain. Finnish winter contains quite little sunlight, even when it doesn't rain.
* HE dances the broken buildd chroot dance.
Do they really still make powerpc-unknown-linux-gnu systems?!
<vorlon> madduck: or you could pick one of the two, and then you don't have
to wait for me to be at the computer for the decision to be made.
<helix> how does a cpu session get interrupted by debian-women?
When a german kid can cobble together something like kanotix that is much better at hardware detection and installation of drivers then Ubuntu something is wrong with the picture.
<Overfiend> Now that I've met Joey in person, and even slept
in the same room as he has, I can confidently say he's
not nearly as perverse in real life as he is in IRC.
Without links the allure of the web would be lost.
MySQL aims to become the IKEA of the database market. Now my wife will never get off my PC.
If a new machine materializes, the law of conservation of matter and energy holds that somewhere in the universe, someone's head and upper torso have disappeared.
This may appear weird, but you can have a static /dev with udev too.
Is there a way of doing keysigning parties remote?
<liw> vorlon, do I look like I know what I'm talking about? <liw> no, don't answer that!
I should fill in the "buildds" box for sparc and make it flash red and green.
The security server's bandwith saturation is also the sign we have much more users, which can only be a good sign.
<aj> vorlon: would it be less subtle if we replaced red, green
and yellow with black, white and a shade of grey?
<vorlon> aj: "and this is what a necrotic port looks like"?
<aj> vorlon: the arch qualification table, halloween edition?
If you want to comment on someone's blog post, use a useful means of communication to do it.
<__uncached_adi> Hey, for HT connectors you can supposedly pick up a
Supermicro board: http://www.pathscale.com/pr_080805.html
<Bacchus> Btw, wouldn't you run much faster with caches enabled?
<__uncached_adi> bacchus: yes, but __raw_ and __io_ were already taken. :)
<ths> __uncached_adi: __NR_adi :-)
<__uncached_adi> ths: hehehe
<__uncached_adi> return -EADI;
<ths> __uncached_adi: To err is adi^Whuman. :-)
I do not really understand why another distri has been created instead of helping to make the current distribution better.
This is some kind of insulting joke.
<jbglaw> Bacchus: Congrats, Linus took a large bunch of patches from you <ths> jbglaw: A disturbance in the force was noted.
The primary effect of extern "C" is just disabling mangling.
My blog is my own; a mailinglist is not.
I met some really kick ass people and probably drank more then I normally do. My normal is pretty bad. I don't buy food, I buy beer.
I hope there will be no ejaculation of cups this weekend.
<salex> I wonder if ESR is just the universes way of telling
the geek culture not to take itself too seriously.
Manuals are great, especially if they're complete.
Novices to RDF are often confused by its unreadable RDF/XML syntax and overlook the simplicity of the RDF data model.
Why are there never enough hours in the day?
<ths> Linus Skywalker. :-)
<panto> "these are not the patches you're looking for..."
<Kumba> "It was as if a thousand patches cried out all at once,
and then were merged."
ATTENTION! This is a console application without a Graphical User Interface.
OpenSSL *must* version its symbols, it is the kind of lib that ends up linked to libs that end up linked into other libs or even worse, end up in nsswitch modules and thus shadow-linked to every dang thing in the system.
An extern C definition doesn't mean that it needs to be usable from C. It just means to use the C calling convention.
Packages that nobody will install should not be in the Debian archive.
It should be an easy matter not to play the games even when they are installed.
Bugs that result from stupidity or being clueless can be closed.
It takes more keystrokes to enter a windows license key than it takes to do a complete Debian desktop install!
The [Linux desktop] has become a lot like teenage sex.
<marvinalone> Which way does the stack grow on mips?
<marvinalone> I just had a discussion w/ my roommate whether buffer overflows
would be possible if the stack grows the non-x86 way, so i'm wondering...
<iluxa> In that case stack on MIPS grows for the most part horizontally, with
slight curves up and downwards, depending on unerlying terrain
<ths> You have to use it carefully, otherwise you may bump into a call tree.
Debian is slowly sinking into the muck and it's fun watching it happen.
The right answer is, if binary compatibility isn't going to be provided, don't ship a shared library.
An open source license allows recipients of the software to redistribute it, thus an open source license is a value-add.
I am also now convinced I was mistaken in assuming that we label non-free software clearly.
We need a better way to enable LDAP and NIS authentication then to tell every admin to edit the files themselves.
PostScript can be the source, the preferred form of modification, in some cases, because PostScript is a programming language.
Both the kernel and GCC include DRM, but without mandatory enforcement.
I could not care less about hurd or kFreeBSD, sorry.
Your message would seem less confrontational if you would deign to explain why Linux-specific kernel features are important in a ping implementation.
Sony uses rootkit to enforce DRM which incorporates code to circumflect DRM and thus can sue itself under the DMCA. C'mon! If this gets any more convoluted or self-referential, either the universe will explode (and be replaced with something even more complicated) or Sony will disappear in a puff of logic.
In my experience, and with the latest trends taken by linux kernel developers, the latest linux version IS a toy unreleased OS.
The empty packages are useless here. They don't bring you or the users anything except confusion.
It is awfully convenient when people disagreeing with us can be labelled as merely indulging in sweeping rhetoric.
Personally, I'd rather people spread FUD about Debian than have Debian not act with utmost care about publishing private notifications of security information.
Some people have not yet figured out that intelligence and wisdom are independent variables.
Others, myself included, [are] taking the technical way and just making it so damn hard to write and ship a closed kernel module, that they will just give up eventually.
You can do a presentation on your cat if you like, but only if your cat uses Debian.
Hell, the LinuxBIOS people boot so fast the hdd hasn't even spun up yet.
I'm suprised that the execs at Sony... still have feet after shooting themselves in the foot so often.
I can't tell the difference between vi and emacs.
No self-respecting geek would settle for anything less than total world domination.
The Debian QA team is somewhat disorganized and understaffed.
I'm strange in that I like my mail to be reliable.
Debconf7 in Edinburgh: because rain is wet!
Software is there to help users do their job.
The need for gcc-2.95 usually means the source code is broken.
I guess I may never understand all the theory behind proper underwear rotation.
When I grow professionally, I grow personally.
Thank god we have actual users who help us make Debian better as opposed to developers who are too busy running Ubuntu.
Don't expect maturity on IRC.
I personally just encourage people to switch to KDE.
Most of the contra arguments are not applicaple to me, so how can they to anybody else?
In high school I kept a "clothes calendar" where I kept track of exactly what I wore when. I basically rotated through outfits, eliminating the need to make a clothes decision.
Ubuntu is setup internally to circumvent social charges.
Wouldn't it save everybody a lot of heartache and bother if Ubuntu just worked on Debian instead?
If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will use it.
Personally, I think it's cryptographic snake oil, at least in so far as it relates to Debian.
I know this is a contrived use case, but Ubuntu doesn't use any .debs from Debian.
In the world of cryptography, proving security is rather difficult.
This thread, however, is not about a technical problem, so I would propose a sauna meeting.
Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is dig through the Perl code in merkel:/org/bugs.debian.org/scripts and work out how to add this functionality.
Oh god, how embarassing. I'm confusing elliptic curves and knapsacks, my bad.
I don't use GNOME, because in striving to be simple, it has long since reached the point where it simply doesn't do what I need it to do.
What's the chance of someone owning a domain with the intended use of sending out Islamic preaches in eight different languages would be interested in subscribing to -devel with an email address in that domain?
BitTorrent won't overload the mirrors ever.
Don't generalize by saying the name of a country.
Most KDE and KDE-dependent packages have an 'admin' directory with various evil and unnecessary files in it.
Better yet, we should make WindowMaker the only window manager in Debian. Down with GNOME and KDE!
The artwork used in GNOME is probably too dark. On an old dark monitor the details are almost invisible.
In my entire involvement with Debian from the development side, I've never seen the NEW queue being processed as quickly as it is these days.
The whole Debian system is a serious pain and an impediment to cooperation.
Cars and trains are different things, but a tmpfs is a tmpfs.
The quality of Debian is not bad at all.
I'd like to propose a few, uh, editorial amendments.
The reason I don't use GNOME: every single other window manager I know of is very powerfully extensible, where you can switch actions to different mouse buttons. Guess which one is not, because it might confuse the poor users? Here's a hint: It's not the small and fast one.
That tmpfs will not be removed from the kernel just because shm_open() will switch to a different implementation.
Quality is sometimes hard to define.
GNOME is for mice, not men.
The copyright holder can always license the code to anyone, under whatever terms they wish, at any time.
<mpo> Hmm, what's the preferred way to check (in maint scripts)
whether package x is installed?
<jaldhar> Try and remove it. If it works, it was installed.
Our two best known quality assurance tools, lintian and linda, are obviously not used by a lot of package maintainers, given the number of packages that have problems.
The 2005 xpdf bug quota is exhausted.
Somebody please inform Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton's mother that her son needs to actually eat his medication, just having it in his medicine cupboard isn't enough.
Bitte sagt mir, ob man hier bei Euch Erotik sehen und hören kann.
Where does it say that we have to go through the GR process to issue a position statement for something the project has already decided on?
That discussion is unlikely to be productive.
apt-ftparchive is causing a bit too much load for any significant increase in architectures.
Although when you're in the situation that RMS is telling you that you're being too ideological about freedom, maybe, just maybe, it's true.
If we can stop all stupidity from happening, I'd be happy to start doing stand-up or slapstick comedy, or perform native American rain dances nude, or whatever.
One of the specific requirements is that ftp.d.o will /not/ be a full mirror, in order to make it trivially easy for people to mirror Debian usefully without filling up their disk.
If we kicked all GFDL out of main, how many upstreams would reconsider their choice of licence? None? Few? Some? Many?
nameif, ifrename - really, this problem has been solved so many times that it's just not funny any more.
There is no room for discussion here; the binary-only firmware is clearly non-free.
It's sexist because it brings gender and sexual orientation into a context where there was absolutely no reason to discuss it, in exactly the same way as making jokes about lesbians in a professional workplace environment would.
Umm, the fact that the phrase "You like looking at hetrosexuals" is sexist just flew below my radar.
We all know that a good sense of humor is an essential social skill, so lacking it is a clear indication of anti-sociality.
If somebody steps on my toe I do not shoot them to show them that stepping on toes is wrong.
Wow. I'm, uhm, astonished.
There are at least a thousand people working on Debian. Everyone has their own motivation, and the only common goal we have, the goal of the Debian project, is to create a free operating system.
The message that started all this is sexist because it ties into and reinforces a presentation of women as sexual objects for men to stare at in a context where this is entirely inappropriate.
Code jockeys are a dime a dozen. Trusted collaborators who have demonstrated a commitment to the project are rare.
Wtf? I come back from the weekend and try to read up on debian-devel and it seeme somebody must have given out free crack...
I guess JoeyH installs Debian systems with his big toe these days...
<schue> I thought that knuth is basically dodging the DFSG
on 3l1t3 Knuthian superpowers.
<schue> he pointed his algorithmic omni-pinky at us and said "nay, i am knuth".
The Debian version of 'terrorism' is 'anti-social'.
I'm sorry, but I cannot find "Allowed to post to d-d-a" in the list of Human Rights as agreed upon in Geneva.
I'm personally tired of the attitude from Ubuntu users and developers alike that this is Planet Ubuntu.
"more bureaucratic" is a killer argument these days.
Do you know of the concept called "rhetoric question"?
I cannot recall any time when differing opinions have resulted in silence on a Debian mailing list.
Sorry sweetie, I'm not a boy and have no pickle to compare.
Debian seems to be good at motivating people to write their theses now.
The relevance of GNU's four basic freedoms is absolutely zero in a Debian context.
My experience might count as evidence, although I'm not sure for which side.
Given Ubuntu hopelessly complicates everything, pretends there is cooperation where there is none, and merely duplicates the effort of the debian-desktop project, and contributes nothing to the community or society, what's stopping us from officially discouraging Ubuntu's existence?
So please stop trying to paint this as a witch hunt.
You could follow the tradition of kernel hackers optimizing kernel command line parsing in hand-written assembly, stare at the screen for a while and going "ummm", and then finally "oh!".
Would we hold a GR to say "Ubuntu is the Antichrist"?
"Durable"? That seems to prohibit CDs and DVDs, which certainly aren't durable. Do I have to include DATs now?
I don't see how a license that did not permit distribution of paper copies could be free.
Sometimes, coding for the web is like having a co-worker with a body odor problem.
I guess on a good day we might see Ubuntu as another arch for the packages were the same source is used...
Medieval stories and poems are nice, but they're fairly special-case texts, and in any case are not likely to be licensed under the GFDL.
It's disappointing, then, that Debian is so fixed in stone that it's incapable of correcting its mistakes.
Nobody is forcing you to encrypt your filesystems.
Removing the ability to manage things from the shell would not be more organised and efficient unless you're a complete fricking moron who can't operate a unix host.
We use CentOS at work. CentOS is a binary-compatible rebuild of Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Every single package in CentOS is rebuilt by the CentOS team. Every package has its Vendor and Packager field modified. Ubuntu should be doing the same thing.
Are you asking or do you want to argue a point?
We are trying to build the best distribution of Linux on the planet, not the so-so distribution created by the most number of people.
The implications are definitely worth considering; just not here.
When SuSE are doing better than you at publishing the tools they use, it's a hint that maybe you suck.
In GPL v3 it will be very clear that a printed copy is "object code".
How does Debian win from encouraging people to split off saying, "Don't use the mailing lists, use this third-party forum nobody uses instead?"
I have no problem with giving due credit.
It is best not to repeat rumors, or we'll never shut up.
Second hand testimony isn't really enough.
Most people will not confuse the cup with the paper and will drink coffee from the cup and also wash *that*, not the paper.
The Debian Project of course is the ultimate volunteer organization with a democratic community and top notch 'open source' ideals.
The day when working on Debian requires the use of a web interface will be the day that I hunt down and painfully kill the person responsible for doing it.
What IS hard is getting involved in something that does not yet exist.
If you want more Contributions, show the Volunteers how to do things.
We need to promote the easy entry points to contributing to Debian more prominently and should hide the "how to become a DD" in comparison.
I really don't think that having a four months out-dated kernel is that bad.
Ubuntu is not part of the Debian world, because it does not share the values that found Debian.
I believe it is more important to address that directly rather than spending time working around the issue and further balkanising Debian into teams who need to defend their 'turf'.
The amount of disk it takes to carry a complete Debian copy is simply going to be increasing.
What really I don't understand is how a proprietary tool can promote more efficient collaboration on the development of Free Software.
Please consider ALL code written/maintained by me that is present in Ubuntu and is not bit-identical to code/binaries in Debian to be not suitable for release with my name on it.
You're only one inside Debian and you can't generalize your personal opinion on the whole project.
As long as you don't answer again, we did our job and you have the token.
I've spent quite a lot of time digging usefull things out of the dross in Ubuntu patchsets (to the point of exhaustion and extreme frustration), doing enormous redesigns based on needs synthesised from observations of how Ubuntu and other CDDs changed things, etc; and I've observed other DDs doing the same.
Is there something to replace it, completely, in *all* situations?
The Debian archive key does not take part in the web of trust.
I shall upload some of Manoj's pornography immediately.
What we don't need is more of this ridiculous discussion.
I refuse to tie any part of Debian that I work on to a system where the code isn't free.
I expect volatile to do the job that the stable group refuse to do.
Being polite on this list is hardly the path of least resistance.
Free Software is a curtesy of it's authors.
1.13. Will the source package import code be open source? Not at this time.
All this is over my head.
You can tell your opinion where you want, but you must not say untrue statements and present them as facts.
I think Debian ought to have a gong.
Let's face it: Debian wouldn't exist without the FSF.
Telling me I'm on crack is a big insult.
FSF would probably call it free documentation or free essays or similar irrelevance.
/me wonders if there is a way to have a "we don't need a DPL" kind of vote possibility on the ballot ?
HostRaid is software RAID, just like Linux's md.
While I don't like the NSA tracking my phone calls, they are welcome to track Nmap release status.
Er, why is makedev being removed? Please clue me in.
Well, they are no powerpc macs, so I guess having debian running on them is probably similar to running Debian on any random x86 box, with the added hurdle that you will find some closed hardware and maybe hostility from apple.
Well, they are no powerpc macs, so I guess having debian running on them is probably similar to running Debian on any random x86 box, with the added hurdle that you will find some closed hardware and maybe hostility from apple.
As it is, volatile is a great solution in search of a problem.
I would prefer if you stop telling lies about volatile.
shoop never replaced anything.
I do not believe that on-disk co-existence of two udev packages is feasible.
There's actually three classes: "Simple editors for newbies", "not-so-simple but, er, powerful editors", and "religions".
If a circular dependency cannot be resolved because both packages always need each other, would policy not mandate that both packages be merged?
All qa-maintained packages are up for adoption or removal and are only maintained at a "if it breaks too bad".
The correct action in these circumstances is a sufficiently evolved killfile.
Xandros does not employ a significant number of people in important single-point-of-failure-positions in Debian, most notably not the people who are notoriously known for not doing the job they have volunteered for.
I couldn't care less how "clever" the ftpmasters are.
Do we call RMS a Debian developer? Do we call Linus a Debian Developer? Does anyone seriously consider that?
Right, Debian is driven by volunteers and I'm pretty sure there are some volunteers willing to help ftp-admins to manage the archives. So isn't the simple solution to have more ftp-admins?
Come on, it is just Mr. Suffield slowly turning into the Overfiend.
It is supported by all commercial Unices as it is required for the Unix branding. However, the quality and completeness of the implementation varies widely.
Branden looks like Amaya!
Volatile is very useful. It just isn't the right place for your pet package.
The zealots have claimed (repeatedly) that the GFDL is non-free. So far, they have yet to come up with any proof of their claim.
Debian is applying human judgement when interpreting a set of guidelines. Only the OSI has ever claimed that the DFSG are a suitable set of rules that can be applied literally and mechanically to licenses to determine their freeness; Debian never has.
If Debian would really require people to be allowed to sue the author of Free Software at any place on the earth, Debian would be anti-social.
Living in a world where one unanswered mail is "epic" must be very exciting for you.
It's taking up all my time, fighting the etch pool... We've had a lot of trouble, because the Debian community has become so active.
Stop flaming me for answering your questions!
I plan to propose a GR to allow temporary distribution of binary-only firmwares on our official install media.
There are high-traffic mailing lists without many flamewars.
May I suggest giving out more information to leverage your advantage of knowledge so that people could make their own informed judgment.
Anyway, people shouldn't make links to sites about non-free software.
I can imagine hundreds of ways to torture NMs...
It could solve the 'I have overwritten the udev that worked with this kernel with a udev that dies and leaves me unable to function' problem.
Natural languages like English are often not as precise in meaning as you seem to think.
Probably "YaST" means "Yet another Setup Trouble"...
Do you really enjoy stringing words together without concern for their meaning?
I used to be a flag-waving FSF patriot, but for reasons people familiar with the present GFDL GR debate will appreciate, the FSF has lost my trust.
The FSF has the great merit of having built the Free Software community.
It's obviously not so obvious.
You do realize that even the FSF does not think that the GFDL is a free license? They just don't think that freedom is as important for documentation as in software.
What we don't need is more of this ridiculous discussion. What we need is for you to get a grip!
A cat is wetware.
You people love to recycle the same lies over and over and over again.
Thanks for trying (and failing) to be smart, Mr. Firefox. Why don't you rather concentrate on processing clicks and keystrokes when you should, rather than ignoring them from time to time?
I like network debugging especially if it is related to my flatmate shutting down my port on the switch due to me using up all the bandwidth and I thought not having a link was probably related to faulty cabling.
* 16. What should you do if a security bug is discovered in one of your packages? 1) Notify team@s.d.o ASAP. 2) Notify upstream. 3) Try to create a patch. 4) Find out that Joey was faster. [...]
It's that the way people choose and apply licenses can split a community.
Some of us actually contribute to Free Software because we believe in its goals and its methods, not because we think we're doing users a favor...
Uh, why does "Source-Version" not refer to, you know, the source version?
If Debian really goes this way, it seems that I need to make public that Debian is anti-social and supporting people who like to infringe the copyright and license.
The technology in games has facilitated a revolution in the art of warfare.
Look, I am not trying to be rude, although I can understand that you may feel I am being so.
Joey, you are as fast as a lightning.
debian-legal in 2003 *was* a fringe minority in itself.
Admitting an error (or a misunderstanding, a misspeaking, or a good old brain fart) is something people can respect; retroactive edits are not.
Debian needs more than just people maintaining packages.
File names are infinite in length, where infinity is set to 255 characters.
I tried already to mirror the ftp.debian.at mirror... But after ca 170G my harddisk was full...
Looking at the way Debian maintains my software makes me believe that Debian might have died.
Why do people actually believe that telling everyone to ignore flames is a workable strategy?
Coming to a decision on inadequate information isn't particularly clever.
This follows the usual pattern: I explain what needs to be done to somebody who starts implementing it and then disappears when it's close to be finished.
I'm kinky and perverse, but my illness is laziness.
One of the appealing things about the Python language is their "batteries included" philosophy: users can assume that the standard library is available, documentation and examples are written to the full API, etc.
A DPL should not want to micro-manage.
Boot speed and python does not really sound a match...
Er, what are you blabbering about?
Geeeeeee, discussions on the libpng ML are scary. Those people are really likely to break ABI just by not knowing what an ABI is...
You are on a witch hunt. Stop it. I am not evil.
Greater involvement by scientists will lead to a multiplier effect.
I am independent, so I will be able to represent all the developers.
<dilinger> --- #python :You need to be identified to join that channel <dilinger> freenode needs to just fucking go away
I think that one of the biggest problems Debian is currently facing is the inability to make decisions.
If James Troup and Ryan Murray have made one thing abundantly clear, it is this: as a general rule, they will not communicate.
I have confidence in Martin Schulze and James Troup.
I find it very strange that the DPL(team) explicitly calls for all input, then ignores that input, and then complains on -vote that they did not get enough opportunity to tell what they were doing.
IMHO Branden had grand plans in the platform of announcing cool stuff every month, and banged against the reality of cool stuff being reported into DWN and the DPL being left with boring stuff.
I will not underestimate the time and effort that the office of DPL requires.
The reason Debian can't compete with Ubuntu for the Desktop/new to Linux users is that Ubuntu makes choices where Debian won't or can't.
The biggest part of the reason here that actually doing the releases take a fair bit of work to implement with the current infrastructure.
As usual, the SRM is left in vain and pain.
Every hour Gnome's "Take a break" timer goes off and I enter a Break subroutine.
Whoa. That certainly was a lot of information; so much, in fact, that I'm not entirely sure I can dissolve the answer to my question from it
Debian has had its fair share of waiting due to new infrastructure.
<tatclass> YOU ALL SUCK DICK <tatclass> er. <tatclass> hi. <andy\code> A common typo. <tatclass> the keys are like right next to each other.
What we need is a change of culture in the project.
DPLs come and go; James Troup remains.
Teams themselves decide what technical decisions they take.
What language is apt written in anyway, and did Jason reimplement C++ too, or did he reuse menu's implementation?
* It's intended to discourage * people from writing things - like - this, * when a paragraph is the right * form to use.
It is really nice to think of a DPL performing miracles.
Maybe we should add an IQ test to the voting system.
Instead of asking the DPL what they'll do to solve All The Problems In Debian, why don't you ask yourself what "you" can do to improve the situation?
Given unlimited time, I think, license discussions could be fun.
Who uses GTK when "small memory footprint" or "minimalistic" are objectives?
Citing beliefs as evidence against someone is a very dangerous thing.
Is there a tool to fix the bounding box of postfix files?
The appeal of these numbers is that clear rules allow us to kill off most reasons for flamewars.
<weasel> hmm <weasel> > Package: deborphan <weasel> > Version: 1.7.18 <weasel> > Severity: normal <weasel> > Is there any special reason why this package is bash dependant? * weasel ponders replying <weasel> To: -done <weasel> yes.
One reason why I was an effective lawyer for Stallman was because if I had a question about the code, I simply looked at the code.
Protect your screen names.
The mirror split is a complicated endeavour.
I'd love to make Debian a more friendly place for everyone.
Andreas Schuldei is a pure teletubby, fed with rainbows and sunshine.
It is now obvious that it needs at least two persons to replace one Joey.
We make the Internet not suck.
An expulsion process is the most hateful thing that can be done to a Debian developer.
How is someone a valuable contributor who wants to be a packaging DD, but can't maintain a package for a few months?
<helix> I like how cddl is pronounced though <stockholm> how is it pronouced? <helix> cuddle
If you're trying to make a difference, run for DPL yourself, or use the time to get some work done on Debian.
I don't want future employers to be able to Google about my bugs.
What is the purpose of a GUI for sending mail?
If a business person in these days doesn't even have a vague clue as to what Linux is, they're not worth half their pay check.
<madduck> I feel like a whore. <madduck> I *want* to do Debian. <madduck> And yet the money persuades me to do something else.
Some even argue that some licenses are designed to split the community.
Darwin's theory of evolution might well hold for software security.
<neuro> tbm: mipsel has no buildd until we get the RAM fixed. <Yoe> neuro: Wasn't a gig of RAM added to the mipsel buildd recently? <neuro> Yes. And now it gets random RAM corruption.
It is a social faux pas to write about yourself.
Personally, I don't think that voting rights are a reward for effort spent, really.
Many new features in update-inetd would be great, but nobody ever finished implementing them.
In my opinion, voting requires far more responsibility and judgement than maintaining a bunch of packages.
Joey is happy to manually install packages for developers in the chroots, and did so almost instantly every time I needed it.
<peterS> oh and we already have D.I.E.T.libc <liw> but do we have the Bug from U.N.C.L.E?
P.S: I have never liked Branden's moustache, so I am not very happy about getting one myself.
Why can't most udev users accept that I actually know how the package works and they do not?
Java is a WORA language! (Write Once, Run Away)
"Grandmother, what a big debdiff you have." "That's because I changed configure.in and re-ran autoconf2.13, my child."
Maybe we should include in the voting process a statement, to be signed with the person's key, that goes something like "I assert that I have read the relevant background on this issue and am able to make an informed decision for the good of the Debian Project"?
I, too, still don't see a reason to add yet another kernel to Debian.
I have often been wrong, naive and ignorant. I understand them well and sympathize with them for that reason.
Do you think that developers who base their votes on the contents of DPL platforms are informed voters?
I agree that explicitly listing which restrictions we do allow in Free Software would be much saner than trying to list restrictions that we do not allow.
I have no idea; I don't particularly care. I don't see the point of this whole discussion.
Nothing requires software in main to have a point or be the easiest way to achieve a goal.
So a GR can state that pi=3, and if it passes, the fact that has been accepted shall prove a GR could state such a thing?
It's not like we've run out of software to package.
As someone who was recently the target of one of those expulsion processes, I believe that what you propose is not enough.
Luckily, the group of people that are just applying to get a cool @debian.org address is quite small.
Legal compliance is /not/ tractable in the same way that software bugs are.
<HE> liw: Ah, but now I'm old enough, so can I adopt your sex? <HE> liw: Or do I need to hijack it?
60% of all pagerequests of planet are by xscreensaver.
I claim that Mach people (and apparently FreeBSD) are incompetent idiots.
Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge. That's what we're doing.
A mail sent is just that -- an email.
I came up with an absolutely wonderfully disgusting solution for this.
Microsoft once rigged a poll on their MSN website because Linux turned out to be too popular to their taste in their results.
Web browsers are extremely complicated beasts.
There is already an inherent unfairness in Debian's voting system when the vote of a relatively modest contributor and less-than-one-year DD like me counts exactly as much as each of the votes of Javier Fernandez- -Sanguino Pen~a, Christian Perrier, Manoj Srivastava, Ian Jackson or Joey Schulze - each of whom is tenfold voteworthy next to me.
If you base any opinon about something in Debian on the presence of a cabal, your conclusion will be fundamentally incorrect.
Err. As an organization, we're not yet 18 years old.
Why didn't our government do anything to stop the SUICIDE ANTS from attacking our water supply?
Surely "working d-i port" doesn't mean that we should drop release candidates every time a bug appears.
I am not willing to contribute patches while being threated like a subhuman by the d-i team.
It's time for all aggregators to learn how to do BitTorrent.
That's..... unspeakably horrible.
I think this deserves an award for the MySQL developers for deliberately breaking upgrades in your packages.
Please, people, the mere fact that we have an expulsion procedure should not mean that we have to invoke it twice in a few weeks.
I think that people who judge the health of the Debian project based on the very public resignation of a single developer from a single role are uninteresting and irrelevant.
It is kind of cute when you wake up, check your IRC backlog, and spurt out coffee all over your keyboard.
<pusling> Threaded programming is good to shoot yourself in both
feet on the same time, according to the book I have got.
<sgran> ... and to never be sure where the bullet came from.
Microsoft should be buying advertising not selling it.
"Secure by default" is not just a catch phrase.
Extended stays in real life are not recommended unless the medication is set to the appropriate levels...
My tongue isn't broken enough to spell gracias! correctly.
Anyone taking psych counsel from debian-project needs psych counsel.
We have a wonderful environment of friendly and collaborative competition, and have avoided unnecessary bitterness for a long time.
The krooger effect is that every time krooger appears MJ Ray and some other people start defending jonathan/ted walther regardless of what loony things he has done in past.
<Np237> FUCKING STUPID BITCH LIBXKLAVIER SUXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX <jordim> while we're on the subject, does anyone want to maintain that one?
The world won't collide just because you didn't get cvs write back.
In most legislations there are severe limits what you are allowed to do with libjoey and it's derived works. For example, various anti-slavery laws contradict directly with DFSG #1.
There are many word documents. There are many word document formats. There are many word document format specifications.
I'm a disgusting pig, and proud of it to boot.
Luckily we have a separate IP-over-a-man-with-a-USB-key for uploads to incoming
A paper by people who can't work out how to mail linux-kernel or vendor-sec, or follow "REPORTING-BUGS" in the source, and think the person found in a file called MAINTAINERS is in fact a "moderator" doesn't initial inspire confidence.
And it seems that the only thing you really need for a good Debconf is a bunch of friendly geeks, which we have, and good network access - which we don't.
We humans trust people we know personally more than we trust Web sites.
The internet connection is overrated, and we are enjoying in the pool seeing Ganneff taking a swim.
Please note that a libjoeyh already exists which forks several instances of Joey Hess with interesting results in development activities.
If you don't care about IRC, why don't you just let us choose the network we prefer?
If you legally acquire music, you need to have the right to manage it on all other devices that you own.
There is no procedure for forcible orphaning the package.
You know that you worked a lot... ... when you notice, that it's Sunday just by the fact, that userfriendly has a big coloured strip today.
The legal right to modify a work does not mean that you have the practical ability.
Please don't confuse disagreements about ideas with personal feuds.
I have heard (today) that libjoey is not 100% free, as in DFSG-free.
The question is not whether we will open-source Java, the question is how.
I think that people are realizing that the Open Source train has left the station.
File permissions clearly "obstruct or control the reading or further copying of the copies you make or distribute" as well as meet the definition of a technological measure.
If it is so easy to mistake, why did only mjr@phonecoop.coop mistake it?
Repeating frequently asked questions that have already been answered isn't terribly useful.
There is no point in uber-democracy.
In many ways, Debian is more of a social movement than a Free Software distribution.
I thought Java was dying.
And you know it's useless how?
In a large part, changelogs are the history books of Debian.
Encrypting a document (whether via GPG or HTTPS) sure seems like a technical measure to obstruct the reading of copies.
I'm tired of some people that just show up here from time to time to be part of flamewars.
Ubuntu has diverged enough from Debian that you can no longer assume a Debian package will install and run in Ubuntu or vice versa.
Social misbehaviour is a good sign that people are not able to judge what is right and what's not - and *that* is quite important for package maintenance.
Are you arguing that the GFDL is free because it says that copying is forbidden if the Atlantic Ocean exists?
I'd like the source for Joey, please.
I would cc the authors but they seem to have forgotten to include their email addresses.
This second Eray Award of the year goes to Kai Hendry for his "No GPG thanks" blog post, suggesting to use something like a wiki to manage package uploads to Debian in lieu of GPG-authenticated uploads.
Towns reminds me of the control freak of our own project.
A flame-war on debian-devel is nothing new, in fact it's the standard practice.
I'm stunned that anyone still thinks that closing unrelated bugs in a changelog is a good idea.
<Snow-Man> Damn, we *rock*! <wiggy> for very sucky values of rock
The GPL was "invented" as a hack on copyright law, not contract law.
Debian differs from all serious real world companies by trying to work out in the open as much as possible.
Innovation is reflective of the developer, not the development model.
When you're working mostly above the level of individual software packages, to have your work mostly appreciated on the basis of "component contained in Ubuntu" is not very motivating.
Before there was Linux, before there was open source, there was an operating system called Unix that was robust, stable and widely admired.
Before there was Linux, before there was open source, there was an operating system called Unix that was robust, stable and widely admired.
Folks, please remember that when you are in a fight with an idiot, other people can't tell which one the idiot is.
The purpose of software engineering is to manage complexity, not to create it.
Debian will survive the Towns era.
Saying "in time for etch" is hopelessly inadequate.
I generally mistrust people's ability if they're constantly abusing project mailing lists with flaming and whining.
Election promises are not worth the hot air they're not printed on.
When moving your MX to another server, remember to also change your MUA's settings to query the *new* server instead of the old one.
Arguing with me is not gonna fix your rpmdb.
I'd rather fix bugs than keep discussing.
Debian should follow the FSSTND at least, and be able to cope with people installing their own binaries in common places such as /usr/bin, etc.
SPI projects shouldn't be taking advice from Sun's attorneys.
Debian has an unparalleled reputation for stability and security.
Remember, laziness is a virtue in network administration.
I don't think we should be keeping 2.2 around, period.
Debian shouldn't be the Linux Distribution of Cryptic Acronyms.
Debian is far from broken.
I'm a bit of a data-packrat and consider data loss to be a bad thing.
Experimenting will give you more clues.
Unix is very simple, but it takes a genius to understand the simplicity.
Something that pulls in half of GNOME should not be part of a "light desktop" meta-package.
* minicom.c Main program. The main loop of the terminal emulator * itself is in main.c. (Yeah yeah it's confusing).
I think that calling "censorship" for information that is mirrored to hundreds of locations worldwide is a slight exageration.
Jesus, this discussion is sapping my will to live.
(*) who the f*** is reading docs?
Oh, God. Do we need the listmasters themselves to shut MJ Ray up on -project?
You're right, and this is a bug.
Are you advocating your own expulsion, now?
If SPI wish to withdraw from their relationship with Debian, then that's entirely possible to arrange.
If you want Jeff to acknowledge the bug and work on a fix - calling him a moron is not the best way to go about achieving that goal.
If you are not a masochist then why do you continue this thread?
My own experience with maintaining a package that never got out of sid is that it's a waste of time.
The guideline is "don't upload to unstable if you don't want it in a release".
The "troll" calls me a "feminist", while the "feminists" called me a "troll" in the past, so I conclude I'm neatly centre-ground.
I like the fact that you first call for God, and then turn to the listmasters instead.
Swap is now mostly irrelevant for performance discussions, if you hit swap you won't have performance anyway.
Experience shows that keys do get compromised and need changing. So rotation or no rotation the key change has to be handled anyway.
Not troll-feeding, but troll-challenging.
One needs to accept that Joey WILL rephrase the submission (only ONE submission from me went into DWN without rephrasing until now).
The probability of failure of a (computer) system is exponentially proportional to the physical distance between it and the one who could fix it.
Gadgets running Linux are a lot of fun, but much of the value of using Linux is lost if the resulting device is locked down and not hackable.
Debian is perfecly able to excercice hate onto any of its members.
Maybe you should consider joining a political party and putting your debating skills to better use.
I don't think it makes much sense looking for a new contender for worst security offender ever written.
If you prefer to get rid of people instead of working with them, you do no not work well as part of a team.
Lack of CVS access never stopped me from contributing to SE Linux.
You'll never hear *me* saying that the Vancouver proposal is one of the brighter points in Debian history.
If we let software development become about egos and who does what, we've lost to lunatics and idiots, and we might as well use one of the BSDs.
Don't be an Ollie. Do yourself a favour and be a Dick.
* HE wants applicants to write about the sex life, to make debian-newmaint more interesting
Personal issues are better left outside this discussion.
<madduck> vorlon: I'll put the gcc 2.96 code into the source package. <vorlon> madduck: I changed my mind, I'll kill you myself after all. <madduck> vorlon: Awesome. Bring some cheddar with you, okay?
No, "we have slow archs" is *not* an excuse for an overly complicated and fragile build system.
There's not much point in using a copyleft if you allow proprietary applications to use the library.
Not all serious bugs are RC, and not all RC bugs are serious.
This is a pretty well-tested version; it's a beta, not an alpha.
How can we be sure the packages are of decent quality if almost noone uses them?
If a tree falls in a forest, and no-one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
Linux is the best documented large codebase around.
Social politics creeping into Debian is one of the greater mortal dangers that we face.
Debian has always been far more than a cold, harsh, faceless corporate entity with no social presence.
Repeating same argument over and over again is not really discussing by my vocabulary.
<stockholm> liw: up already? <liw> no, I'm typing in my sleep
Yay, bzr gives me enough rope to hang myself.
Forcing people to work together in teams does not work in voluntary projects.
What you do with your symlink is between you and whatever gods you believe in, but if you touch /usr/bin/gcc and then build a package in such a tainted environment we'll send you to the afterlife ourselves.
Nobody plays a critical role in any piece of software development, sorry.
It's our daily snort report, that is considered spam every few weeks.
If Oracle and SAP are on your list of simple things, what then are large complex things for you?
The license shows many signs of being written by someone with just enough knowledge to be legally dangerous.
In Oregon, if you have a driver's license, you cannot get an ID card. If you have an ID card, you have to surrender it to get a driver's license.
I suspect that there are many, many more productive uses for your time than making sure the floppy driver is not loaded.
I'm one of the small minority of people who have a very negative opinion about gmail.
And at least hundreds of people appear to be reading debian-private on slashdot news.
<Cord> Boa. Python is b0rken. <Joey> Cord: by design
Unfortunately, applying for a Vendor ID costs you USD 2,000.
I wonder what crack people are smoking. Come on, makefiles calling shell scripts calling makefiles calling shell scripts parsing custom stuff from a library, generating C snippets that are compiled and run, outputting header snippets, which are then compiled into the program?
<madduck> So I cannot upload mdadm compiled with 2.96 to unstable *now*? <vorlon> You can, if you want to speed your journey towards duck heaven.
It seems that Apache maintainers try to see if the package can be auto-self-maintained by itself.
Everyone agrees that Ubuntu couldn't exist without Debian, but I also believe that Debian is better setup to take Ubuntu where it needs to go.
<ari> bigger, longer, and dcut.
I think that the difficulty of submitting a Debian bug report via the BTS provides a very useful barrier against poor-quality bug reports.
Becoming an advanced user does not make you more patient.
Stop the ad-hominem attacks or I will Cc you!
Stop agreeing with me, Steve, the earth might shift out of orbit!
For future reference, I personnally dislike people trying to trick down other people.
Debian has no need to know my birthdate or -place and I don't see a reason to stuff that kind of information into a database.
<madduck> Any suggestions? <mrd> Submit a feature request to LSB? <madduck> And wait 15 years? <mrd> Eh, that's only 2 or 3 debian releases from now.
Since my 64HE here are filled with 82HE of hardware I can add no more hosts here.
I think the idea that Debconf should attempt to expose developers to different cultures is entirely insane.
Manually searching the Web is not a sustainable model, long term.
The main problem that prevents people to understand the GPL correctly, is that there are too many wrong interpretations in the net and even the FAQ from the FSF is not 100% correct.
It flags alarms, it is obscure, and generally it is bad form to have hidden files anywhere but under user homes anyway.
Goodness gracious, what is it with people replacing the entire upstream build system with their own completely broken makefiles.
The IRC chan looks like ghost city too ...
I'm also always hesitant to deviate Debian default behavior for utilities like tar from upstream.
And this, sir, is an insult.
The Debian project is like the Phoenix of myth. However many times it dies, it will always rise again from its own asses.
Make the Italian translation for "foot in the lower left corner" a bit less stupid.
When you let the other distros be dogs you take for a walk (for the purpose of this comparison), running back and forth and showing their speed and agility to the world, Debian is the dog's owner, walking steadily in one direction and never turning back. And it can only do so, because the dog's owner has a broader goal than the dog.
The ext3 fsck is extremely effective in the face of serious errors.
APSL 1.2 too is OSI approved. That doesn't make it a free license.
This license looks like someone took his time to collect every single problematic clause.
What does it mean for a compiler to produce portable code?
Having open source projects in the mix ensures there will always be some competition for the market-leading firm no matter what happens in the marketplace.
Never thought I'd be telling Malcolm and Ilya the same thing...
How about we fix the real problem, then?
* capplet-manager.c: Big changes. Now we no longer use gtknotebook, and the world is better for it.
I wouldn't use a filesystem that isn't rewritten at least once per 5 years.
I deleted the first (root) line from the passwd file. I closed out myself. HOW can I restore it without root rights?
Reminds me that writing a successor for xkeycaps is still on my TODO list, somewhere between getting rich and introducing world peace...
I have very little feeling for what SPI does, as long as they do not lose Debian money for the third time.
We're getting towards the German Linux Event Season (aka autumn) again.
We have a nice backlog. We go as fast as possible, but are currently slowed down because some stuff depends on ftpmaster will.
I have no interest in patch that changes multiple things at one time, without any explanation.
I cannot claim any deep thought on this one, so please do revert it.
<aj> Hopefully tomorrow I'll have enough energy to do
something useful rather than make work
<MadCoder> aj: I've solved your problem here
<MadCoder> make work
<MadCoder> make: *** No rule to make target `work'. Stop.
NMUs are not an excuse to get random pet bug fixes in.
Think of me as CVS with a brain and with some taste.
<_rene_> Anyone knows whether overly long build-dep lines give problems to
sbuild, dpkg-whatever, etc? Long defined as > 800
<joeyh> You call that long?
<joeyh> joey@kodama:~/src/d-i/installer>grep Build-Depends debian/control|wc -c
<joeyh> 1353
Fortunately I still have a brain.
The impact is lower in this case because we've already trained our long-suffering users to expect udev to regularly break.
Granting remote root through a web server application is a recipe for disaster.
It's clear to me at least that the open source activist community needs to come to grips with the change in the way a great deal of software is deployed today.
It's well accepted that reiserfs3 has some robustness problems in the face of physical media errors.
Helping to spread SPF is going to annoy a lot of people, including our users.
The best way to make it happen is to do it.
Flames may be true and real. It is the flame *throwing* that is bad!
We do not need a GR to simply follow our existing procedures.
However, given my track record WRT editorial changes to foundation documents, people ought to be examining this draft before the vote rather than afterwards.
HP had hoped that the second draft would clarify the patent provision such as to ease concern that mere distribution of a single copy of GPL-licensed software might have significant adverse IP impact on a company.
Debian users will soon be unable to report new bugs. The bug tracking system uses a limited, fixed size integer for doing calculations on bug numbers, and the project is soon reaching its limits.
* fish.c: apply a patch from Miguel "Rodrguez" <migrasesp@netscape.net> to get dates properly (in Spain that special wanda day is different)
For anyone who has ever complained that Debian is hard to install, go try Solaris and then come back.
Strictly speaking all circular dependencies could be considered a policy violation because they depend on dpkg not working as policy states it does.
<marga> !polygen nm <enrico> marga: 15. Are Debian Women useful? How do you correct them? <marga> !!!!!!
I see no reason to continue this discussion, it only wastes time.
Perhaps what is needed is a crash course for our community in how to better write buggy and insecure code!
As a sidenote, I should not commit stuff at 4 in the morning.
I have no latent wish to move from one legacy system to another with a much bigger and less common client, which isn't integrated into as many editors because it excludes contributors or forces upgrades.
Package maintainers often put mad stuff in control files.
I managed to find sponsors for 322 uploads.
I thought I'd start and say something possibly controversial.
But pretending that firmware definition is somehow ambiguous is Clintonian ("it depends n what the meaning of the word 'is' is") in nature.
Sometimes, I just take out a blank piece of paper and write out a bunch of closing parentheses, to make up for all the unclosed parenthetical blocks out there in the world.
As most people familiar with the relevant personalities would likely expect, conversations with Mr. Schilling have not come to any sort of productive outcome.
You realize that "any time now", in debian-developer-speak, could mean within the next hour just as easily as it could mean within a year or two?
* panel.c (panel_destroy): don't go into the unexplored territory that is the negative ref count. Wait for GTK 1.4 for that.
Being afraid is normal behaviour when no informatiion is available.
I run Debian on laptops and desktops just fine.
Small beautification fixes for poor users. Poor them.
<ore> The FSF doesn't endorse anything, actually <ore> Most GNU project machines use Ubuntu nowadays <Corsac> We should rename non-free something like "universe" or "extra"
Haven't we reached the point where we have noticed that all posts by JS are understood as being based in a special fantasy land only inhabited by him and a few fanboys?
Didn't we already have the conversation where we explained that there is nothing necessarily wrong with a circular dependency?
<_rene_> vorlon: I get asked about #381671 constantly
<_rene_> vorlon: is there any plan to fix this for etch?
<vorlon> _rene_: sure, if people start taking care of their
own packages so I can take care of mine.
We're now nearly four years later and there's been zero action. So I decided to take a look at this package and found the relevant patch in about six minutes of time.
This log entry is part of the "Save Caps Lock" campaign brought to you by the International Society of Caps Lock Fanciers. No upper case characters were hurt in the production of this entry.
As long as people from Debian are on calumiation campaigns aginst OSS authors, Debian needs to be called non-free.
The social contract doesn't define what "The Debian system" is.
I have just found the MMU emulation bug(s) in ARAnyM I was tracking hard this week. After long 20 months of searching it's fixed now.
This is like legislating the value of Pi not to be irrational -- I mean, rationality is to be prized, no?
I think I disagree with this.
Compile-time warnings. The final frontier. These are the voyages of Cactus, on a mission to seek out and fix new warnings, to boldly hack where noone has hacked before.
"innovation" is the industy's current buzzword.
Debian burns bandwidth far faster than it raises money.
I will say it here -- if an OpenSSH hole is found that applies to SunSSH, Sun will not be informed. Or maybe that has happened already.
Whoever answers to this proposal will be mocked publically.
Vixie cron was last released in '93. In many distributions it's still used, but in eg, Debian, the package is the result of 13 years of patches on top of that release.
They also happen to release half broken stuff, as well... The great advantage of fixed release dates.
That thread didn't seem to generate much sympathy...
When everyone is responsible for something, no one is responsible.
There aren't many people who's contributions to Debian match that of Manoj.
<Anthony Towns> Money's nice <Bill Allombert> Money's awful.
Cracking PDFs is not something an admin would usually do.
My software is definitely free and has no license problems.
One thing to consider is that the real world is often shades of gray.
I argue for the sake of argument now, even when I have no idea which side of which debate I actually live on.
Home is where you have to wash the dishes.
I think it is ludicrous to pretend that firmware is not a program.
If someone creates a nice frontend with a big button saying "Push me to download & burn the latest Debian CD/DVD", users won't care if it uses bittorrent in the background.
I wish that I had your mind-reading capabilities.
Ajax brings you back into the dark ages of internet development.
I've written machine code in hex, so I have no problem believing that other people would do such a thing.
This software is free, but should you find this software useful in your daily work and would like to compensate the author, donations in the form of aged bourbon and scotch are welcome by the author. The user may feel exempt from this clause if they are below drinking age or think the author has already partaken of too many drinks.
I can, somehow, grok maintaining a thunderbird extension, but delving into the actual thunderbird code is way over my available time at the moment.
The reason I'm pointing this out at length is to emphasise that as we improve the archive software this will become not just awkward to do, but impossible.
At the end of the day, having one person who can make arbitrary decisions and whose word is effectively law probably helps in many cases.
It's hard to implement something when the specifics of what it needs to deal with are unknown.
It started a big flamewar, got cc'd to the lists of both projects, and Theo sent me an automated message every couple of months for about 2 years afterwards telling me that he still hated me and was still ignoring all my mails
Please stop giving me orders.
Any humour found in the text is there purely by accident, for the text was written by a German guy!
Please, try not to criticise me for answering the questions asked, rather than imagined ones.
Updated my TODO. Damn, After Jeremy asked me to merge our TODOs, I feel that my TODO is violated. The TODO hardly talks to me anymore... And besides, it just keeps growing - I guess it eats too much feature ideas. Gotta ask it to stop.
The Internet naming service called BIND is used by absolutely everyone - you'll find it in Microsoft code, open source code, you'll find it everywhere.
* dondelelcaro really falls in love with the total lack of changelog information in imagemagick's subversion repository
Questions are the beginning of wisdom.
Syphilis is a disease. Software usually isn't.
Bittorrent is by far the most efficient protocol when it comes to large file distribution.
Joey S. should have titled his last blog entry "Drive your spike into THIS".
Hey, I'm getting jealous. I want automatic messages from Theo as well.
You forget that our commitment to our users includes not misleading them by changing our long-term mission every release, and that we used to pride ourselves in striving for a free best OS.
You cannot name a piece of software which runs on a MIPS or ARM core on a peripheral processor anything but a program.
I hate my chaotic self, and, I guess, it hates me, too. I guess I need a third personality.
dpkg (1.4.0.20) unstable; urgency=low
* Disabled --force-overwrites.
* Removed core file from source
-- Michael Alan Dorman <mdorman@debian.org> Tue, 9 Jan 2018 03:34:28 -0500
It was a nice surprise finding several huge threads waiting for me after my return from VAC.
* helix morbidly wonders what will happen when we all begin dying of old age
<trave11er> helix: "connection reset by peer" :-)
<peterS> helix: you're still a child, don't start worrying until Manoj
and I start dropping off
So are these all GRs popping up just an attempt, or secret plan, to DoS poor Manoj?
The documented and preferred way to remove packages from experimental is to upload a package to unstable that supersedes it.
<helix> If my last name were 'schilling', I would totally drop the s
The resolution is what we resolve to do, and is the only actionable part; the preamble is something that lays down the groundwork, and is part of the support ensemble that lrsfd [rp[;r to sgree to resolve to do whatever.
* joeyh is a wimp -- he can't write code w/o documenting it at first or at least concurrently
The Debian Inquirer admits defeat. Reality can't be parodied.
* HE still wonders what kind of crack pipe you need to believe that
something like replacing close by disconnect (or the other way round)
would be a good reason to break dozens of r-deps
<vorlon> have you looked at dbus? ;)
<HE> Too much, actually. I needed to fix some dbus compile errors on
OpenBSD a few days ago.
<vorlon> then you understand it's not so much a crack /pipe/ as it is a
crack /bus/
<vorlon> to better facilitate the sharing of crack
Money is power. Power corrupts.
Perhaps this is nostalgic hagiography, but we used to be united in producing a quality OS.
Technically, *everything* in Debian is "contrib" because it depends on non-free software shipped with your computer, such as the BIOS.
Proving my fitness to edit docs on how to use docbook, I have broken my docbook setup again and can't check the thing actually builds without jade sulking. I'm committing it anyway. Bad Telsa.
When people do things for their own intrinsic goodness (i.e. for reasons other than payment), introducing payment can reduce the amount of invovement.
IMO this discussion is turning into paramecia hair-splitting with an axe.
Debian isn't fun. There's too many wankers.
The quality Debian has is because people work on the parts they have interest in themself to get improved.
Note to self: if you're going to ask whether the "/server" command does in fact disconnect oneself from the network, do not start a phrase with the "/server" keystroke...
Why has noone implemented libjoey yet? Real-life forking would be so useful...
There have been so many of these proposals floating around I am beginning to lose track.
As the cost of data storage gets cheaper, as the cost of data collection gets cheaper, more intrusion, more surveillance is possible.
The free culture movement needs some things more than money.
When I'm hurt, I bite.
Publishing a DVD with a single audio track, which isn't even the original, should be punishable.
I believe that distributing firmware written in chunks of hex is in compliance with the GPL, and repetition of your arguments isn't going to change that belief.
* src/bookshelf.c (bookshelf_new): Not sure what this crack was supposed to do, but it didn't work anyway.
Oh, the irony. Mike Hommey: 1st mail on -vote this month. Sven Luther: 42nd mail this month on -vote. This month is barely more than 5 days old.
A common reason for not providing information is "we are working on it".
Full moon light is good enough to spots rocks and other obstacles on the patch ahead, but mixed with extreme sleepiness, its usefulness decreates significantly
Added some comments so that six months down the line when I look at this mess I'll know what particular brand of crack I was on. (Rather I'll have a big clue as to what I was smoking at the time)
Shit shit shit wrong root
If money makes us do things that we wouldn't otherwise do then it's bad.
Being aware of a problem is not an excuse for taking a wrong decision.
Lesson #253: do not run lintian on sarge on packages build for unstable.
Heh, of course, you've already graduated and became a doctor in the three years waiting for the NM process to complete.
Program runs successfully here after dropping the 'assert (time == money);' statement.
Ugh... I wasn't apying attention.
Glasnost is often regarded as meaning freedom of speech, [but] it's kind of dismantling the autocracy in Russia and disabling the power of the autocracy to dominate everything else. And Perestroika was the restructuring.
Work, you scum of the earth called CVS!
Mixing money with a volunteer project is dangerous.
If getting paid is motivating for some, then you can be fairly sure that not getting paid will be demotivating for others.
You are aware that we currently silently drop about 30000 mails a day?
Debian is the last Linux distribution I intend to work on.
There are many reasons why vendors will not give information out. I believe that all their reasons are a lie to the customer.
Why do Linux distributions insist in applying patches that introduce bugs into cdrtools?
Thou shalt add a space after `-I' when invoking `orbit-idl'.
It is a fact that Bubulle and me have agreed to disagree on a number of topics.
My drives are clicking like a fine timex watch.
As a user, the size of Debian's archive is a major selling point.
What I dislike is people finding RC bugs, and not reporting them until the package hits testing.
Dear lazyweb, after 12 hours of displaying this animated GIF, the dead LCD pixel on my laptop disappeared. Probably worth a try. http://sam.zoy.org/blog/2006-10-20-dead-lcd-pixels
The problem with being the mdadm maintainer is that it doesn't make any friends but potentially quite a lot of enemies.
Three great virtues of a programmer: laziness, impatience and hubris.
Manoj has a different opinion about policy and so may hurt the release, which is obviously the only thing that counts today.
<nutmeg> Most evil bug in sid: #351043 gnudoku:
generates puzzles with multiple solutions
<mrvn> Uh oh, stop the presses, delay the release.
During the last ten days the amount of pointless flamewars on debian-devel and -private has been remarkably low. Please keep it that way.
I have managed to guide policy for 8 years now, which is almost as long as aj has even been a DD. I think I know what I am doing, and how it is done.
The Queen of England is now the official maintainer of gdm2. BTW, does anyone know her email address?
Some of those places are vacant because there is simply nobody else to fill the gaps.
So stop bitching and moaning at the developers who have posted their views and try to resolve this problem.
I think a leader should not act in anger, but should take the time for talking.
I'm not sure what all this is aiming to achieve beyond being a different attempt to effectively prevent me from exercising any DPL powers, and to further discourage people from having any faith in our constitutional processes.
I'd add that the harm done by this "experiment" is already so huge that there's unfortunately no turning back, and it seems quite obvious that Debian will never be again what it was before, and that is very sad.
The Debian project has a number of checks and balances already in place to ensure that useful activity isn't blocked.
Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
Reverting that patch does indeed appear to fix it.
The purpose of Debian is to provide Free Software, not to provide a lecture about it.
Why not apply pressure to GCC people to fix their compiler warning bugs instead?
Oct 31 07:25:09 asteria root[30379]: Day '31' out of range 1..30 at /usr/share/perl5/Mail/SpamAssassin/Util.pm line 455
It's worth bearing in mind that Debian's position on both Free Software and trademarks is very complex and not entirely consistent.
The Net back then was a relatively small group of people who were technically savvy and all of whom had as their primary goal making the Internet work.
I use three different operating systems: Sarge, Etch, and Sid.
I aspire to use good English, not to vandalize it.
Religions commonly require contributions to charitable causes and helping other people. Developing free software without expecting a reward seems to fit that criteria.
Trying to uncommit silly test code.
The reason people create other licences is personality, you don't want to call your licence by someone else's name.
With SE-Linux patches, I need to make sure that the Hurd and GNU/kFreeBSD stuff is not impacted. Ubuntu just does not care about those arches.
I just lost an Emacs vs. vim battle at work because the Emacs people were louder
The idea of the license is that those who benefit from the freedoms of GPL software must also provide their source code changes for the benefit of others using the code.
Mozilla isn't written in C++. It's written in a bizarre sub-language which happens to be compilable by C++ compilers.
With regard to those riskier areas, the key question for Google's future is whether it can realize that losing is really one of the best assets the company has.
444 kB is a lot of data. Everything counts.
Being granted write access is a privilege and not a right.
I'm having some doubts that a SSL lib with a 0.1 version, which was released only a week ago provides real benefit to Debian.
Even more disturbing, Ubuntu has been built for more architectures than they released edgy for, while some people in Debian are trying to reduce the number of architectures in the hope of getting towards a shorter release cycle, which Ubuntu has just admitted to be suboptimal for server installations by preparing an "LTS" release.
So, sorry to be bothering you all again, but being silent doesn't help in this.
The day that Bruce Perens gets to tell me that Novell is the new SCO is the day that I willingly accept an offer to be sodomised with a pneumatic drill.
Microsoft's pulling out of the biggest potential market in the world because of piracy, like I'd be pulling out of Natalie Portman because she farts in bed.
If you make an agreement which requires you to pay a royalty to anybody for the right to distribute GPL software, you may not distribute it under the GPL.
Ubuntu is an ancient African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'.
<Manoj> Shit. I said don't when I meant do on -policy <Manoj> damned fingers
you can also install it on MySQL 4 (which will do fun things like truncate numbers for you), and in which case you get what you deserve...
The brain is a beautifully engineered get-out-of-the-way machine that constantly scans the environment for things out of whose way it should right now get.
How is this different to the billion other tools we have like it?
Increasing the number of packages one maintains does not necessarily get one into the cabal.
If a customer says, 'Look, do we have liability for the use of your patented work?' Essentially, If you're using non-SUSE Linux, then I'd say the answer is yes.
I am against people voting for actions which they lack the courage to perform themselves.
Of course it is allowed to make a joke out of religion.
It looks like my deletions were reverted, so now I officially don't care any more.
Knowing about Star Wars is not a cultural reference anymore, it's a sign of mental decay and an early sign of Alzheimers.
I had an email communication from Rob Malda at one time in which he revealed that I was the highest moderated individual on Slashdot. It is no longer possible to keep score since Slashdot established a cap on their moderation totals. I did once achieve about 46 moderation points on replies to a single story, and would have equalled the "karma cap" of 50 if I hadn't hit Slashdot's own comment-posting limit first.
I think that this is an interesting area of research, but starting a discussion on this list is not the right thing to do.
It's Java, did you expect something fast?
The correct behavior for any database is to ALWAYS throw an error and do NOTHING when it can't store exactly what you tell it to. This is especially true when you are working with financial data.
If somebody asks me how much the actual free software source code benefits from the code that was released by the vendors, my honest reply would be simple and sad: None
Welsh translation: now sandstorms in Cardiff airport can be reported by gweather. Still arguing about haze/mist/fog though. Which is a shame. There are no sandstorms at Cardiff airport.
Mozilla's bizarre sub-language might have made some sense in 1995, but it hasn't been 1995 for a long time now.
aptitude is also Y2K-compliant, non-fattening, naturally cleansing, and housebroken.
We make muck so you don't have to.
Yay for trying to set up an encrypted partition and not even getting to the point of formatting it before forgetting the passphrase.
Damn, this is what I get for having tea instead of coffee this morning. That's the second time I've missed a negation in a sentence in like 5 minutes.
If you have unexpected problems, please try Linux-2.4 or Solaris.
I'd say that having opensource.org redirect to a Google search on Open Source might be a better thing for everyone.
Unfortunately there is just a lot of "PCI" hardware out there for which the designers decided to save a bit of copper and only wire up the lower X address lines (for various values of X).
Programming using unit tests is fun. In addition to fixing bugs in your code, you get to fix the bugs in your tests too.
The larger problem is the early adoption of drivers not yet merged upstream.
This commit is dedicated to Larry Wall.
Debian releases slipping by a month or two are ho-hum.
Surveillance is 'follow that car', wholesale surveillance is 'follow every car'.
Had somebody wanted to kill (or inflict maximum damage) to the project, he couldn't have done any better than the current DPL.
I'm sure there is some logic to it, but it escapes me.
The kernel has a horrible interface for finding unused ttys.
We don't customarily give advice about software that hasn't even been released yet.
I just love it when I am taking a look at a package because I am NMUing it and end up submitting more new bug-reports than the NMU was going to fix.
Does posting it to mailing list qualify as "publishing" as well?
It's one thing to think your "raid IP" is worth more than the Linux kernels IP, it's another one to sabotage the Linux kernel to protect your "raid IP".
I'm open to concrete suggestions, but unfortunately every single one I've heard is broken in one way or another.
The problem here is gratuitous package renames within a system that does not support them.
Yeah, something went really wrong here.
Mozex is a very ugly hack, in the most negative sense of the word.
What's sad was the last [DPL] joke canidate did better than a serious one.
My son, seven years old, runs Windows Vista, and, honestly, he doesn't have an antivirus system on his machine.
The patent agreement struck between Novell and Microsoft is a divisive agreement.
Every time you use cdbs, God kills a kitten.
Why exactly is the Star Wars trilogy such a big deal to some of us, even though it's clearly flawed, and ends with a bunch of muppets singing around the campfire.
Please ignore paranoid people.
To be honest you have to regard any nonencrypted mail as world readable and you can be nearly sure that all your mails are recorded at a place where you have no control over it.
Looking at common sense, there are people who like monologues...
Everyone else is getting drunk, and it affects me. I make the silly bet about Debian releasing on time: if we do, I'll get a Debian tattoo. Not to worry, I win either way.
People grow, and sometimes grow up.
If you use the Internet you are using Free Software and almost 100 percent of that infrastructural Free Software that's all around the place is BSD licensed.
* schemas/desktop_gnome_accessibility_keyboard.schemas: Dear lord I apologize for failing grade 3 spelling. PLEASE don't humiliate me like this again.
If I were a troll-feeder, I would say that you can wait peacefully as we have paid-release-managers working hard on it.
if (pid == 1) /* you may not mess with init */
We should make decisions on technical merit.
The whole Linux ecosystem is quite strange for people who are used to the way "traditional" companies operate.
The maintainer address has to be open to receive mail.
I try not to clutter lists with half-cooked stuff normally.
/dev/sda3 has gone 37770 days without being checked, check forced.
Sccsids are aliens in the GNU world.
Nichts ist einfacher zu bedienen als ein aktuelles Original cdrecord.
I object to the GFDL license applied to the wikipedia, and believe that - because of the flaws in the license - it is unlawful to host the Wikipedia on a computer running any contemporary operating system.
What about strict mode? Strict mode doesn't protect your data if applications can turn it off with no help from the admin.
No way will I pull this kind of crap.
Even Microsoft implemented most of ISO Standard C++98 years ago.
The MPL has been copied with the word Mozilla changed and there are about 80 different licences. Unfortunately this means all those licences are incompatible with each other.
Wholesale surveillance used to be impossible, now it is possible. We've seen this in the UK where the police, in order to find somebody, started taking DNA samples of everybody.
My trackbacks used to be so wildly abused that it almost made me cry.
Some people who used to do good work reduced their involvement drastically.
Using patents as competitive tools in the Free Software world is not acceptable.
Actually, I implemented secure attention key back in 1991 or so --- for VT or Serial console support only. Back then, X didn't exist yet for Linux, so that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. :-)
A fork is nothing attractive, but it's also a way to improve things in Open Source world.
This whole weapons of mass destruction argument is all about leverage.
Welcome to the wonderful world of the 'select' kconfig statement.
My paid job is neither related to Debian nor to my activities within Debian, so I must admit that I have been a fool to give time to Debian without return, and I will now look for some medical help to diagnose and cure this distortion of reality perception.
Whining about whining is pretty annoying though. I'm going to go blog about that.
If you write a userspace program, use userspace functions.
In Linux a filesystem is a dumb layer which sits between the VFS and the I/O layer and provides dumb services such as reading/writing inodes, reading/writing directory entries, mapping pagecache offsets to disk blocks, etc.
IRC channels are used for official project business.
This email brought to you by Sunday afternoon coding frustration.
Ingo, you're mis-read the problem.
Actually, going slowly is a feature, because it allows some testing between changes.
Looking at kernel patches from the various vendors, I'd say the code quality is, by far, off any scale that would ever even remotely be considered to be suitable for upstream inclusion.
It's funny how long this bug survived.
They aren't free, just very cheap.
Somebody needs to go through the Mozilla code base with a machete, starting with that bizarre inheritance hierarchy of string-like things.
The Linux kernel does not do page coloring.
Why is it OK to disdain people who might believe in the flying spaghetti monster as being mere pranksters?
Actually, forking is not really that bad of an idea.
The other gotchas are somewhat serious, but that one is a killer.
I have more messages in my Debian mail today *about* spam than I do actual spam received via Debian.
I have more messages in my Debian mail today *about* spam than I do actual spam received via Debian.
Out of tree drivers aren't subject to any kind of review process, and are 90% of the time, frankly crap.
We have a bloody mess of what we do with pointers to data being checksumed.
I trust Aurélien's buildd much more than my own sourceful uploads.
With this agreement Novell is attempting to destroy that unified defense, exchanging the long term interests of the entire Free Software community for a short term advantage for Novell over their competitors.
The freeze seems to cause more stress then happiness.
What about the feelings of the people who think that the world is hurt by superstitious beliefs?
I prefer real work with an NM above answering stupid questions.
No need to be sory to update translations.
* trave11er would take erich's whining over joey's whining any time :-)
I'm of the opinion that Ubuntu could not exist without Debian.
While open source communities are primarily made up of volunteer contributors, company involvement is always welcome.
Soname changes are used for changes to the names and signatures of functions exported by the library, not for subtle changes in handling of a config file.
Do you want me to report a Debian bug for each upstream issue? Or do you really believe upstream bugs don't apply to Debian packages?
When has not knowing anything ever stopped someone from writing KDE programs?
<jvw> https://gallery.debconf.org/ralph/p1020826 -- pants length mismatch <moray> I'm still surprised he hasn't yet got arrested anywhere for not wearing trousers <Rhonda> moray: <sigged>, if allowed? 8-) <moray> Rhonda: preferably not until after they make the venue decision for next year :p
Individual maintainers don't do sourceful uploads of 20 packages a day.
Debian GNU/Linux is an Operating System and NOT A GADGET from Redmond.
Ignorance is no defence.
<kyllikki> hmm it needs netbeans...whatever they are <rjek> Things that make your network fart.
The only thing that's hurt is my productivity.
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once.
I know XML is well-established and well-supported, and I'm told there are a couple several hundred thousand people who think it is really cool and even human-editable. Still, I hate XML.
Just because something is hard does not mean it is not worth it.
Security is only a new name for authority in the hands of idiots.
Mark Shuttleworth wants Ubuntu to replace Debian on all market segments, turning Debian into a provider for unstable packages. But we have no reason to help him.
Google is surely aware of the dependency it has on Wikipedia.
I had lunch with Tony Blair today. (And yes, I have been waiting all afternoon to type that.)
Remember that DEFAULT_MOD is Mod1, which on normal Linux (and most UNIX) systems is the Alt key. The Alt key is also known as the Meta key, but of course in Emacs you can access Meta with the Esc key, (while in Solaris, the Meta key looks like a diamond and the Alt key is just Alt). If you could follow the last sentence, you have my sympathies!
Code deleted is code debugged.
I'm an individual! Just like everyone else.
<weasel> cryogen: we did one of those matrix things last time. <cryogen> we did? <cryogen> i wasn't involved :) <Myon> you took the other pill
20. What would you do if you wanted to retire from the project? Remove the passphrase from the (secret) gpg key and post it to debian-devel. The keyring maintainers will lock the account ASAP.
<astronut> xmms won't build int Ubuntu because Ubuntu lacks sin() <astronut> https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+source/xmms2/+bug/62987 <jamessan> Based on all the religious wars, I thought Ubuntu was full of sin
RRD? I don't read every line but after years of it it's kind of like the matrix to me.
Greek words are among the worst things that could have happened to academia.
<maxx> !polygen nm <enrico> 17. Can you explain how would you do to close our beloved DPL? <pusling> DPL-done@bugs.debian.org ? <adn> no, DPL-close@ and mention the version <adn> because we still have bugs with older DPLs
* debian/glame.xpm: Add crappy menu icon. * debian/rules: Install crappy menu icon. * debian/glame.menu: Make use of crappy menu icon. Closes: #299367
Also, your example has the negative implication, no matter how you disclaim it, that the end result of a social policy is gonna make me feel like I am in a disney movie.
<Ralphis> The Internet isn't a truck you can just dump things on. <rjls> Yeah it is, its called geocities.
There even are places where English completely disappears. In America they haven't used it for years.
<richiefrich> jilles thank u <richiefrich> I thought it was +c * weasel wonders if color would make a 'you' out of a 'u'
NM Questions: When would you use one (epoch)? Helix: When Daniel Stone hijacks one of your packages.
<weasel> .oO ( SOAP - for when 90% overhead just isn't enough )
It's a matter of people showing respect towards each other. One way of showing that is via politeness.
[tor on hurd]
<antrik> Nice... So we can use the Hurd anonymously,
so we don't embarrass ourselfs...
MySQL aims to become the IKEA of the database market. Good looking but cheaply made and breaks when you look at it wrong?
We're not going to allow non-RC changes into etch despite a missing alpha build.
<asuffield> and Apple's developers are permanently on acid <asuffield> "let's reimplement Unix in shiny green"
Those that can't do, teach, and those that can't teach... teach gym.
Wait a second. You mean there's a billion phones with Java on them and Cingular's network hasn't gone down yet? Damn, how did that happen?
And all the time Debian is changing from being free to a cabal + slaves. Now DDs aren't even allowed to upload binaries anymore.
<p2-mate> yeah, imake is not better <ari> imake is obviously Improved Make <p2-mate> it's idiots make
Yes, apparently saying strcpy in front of OpenBSD is like saying "intellectual property" in front of RMS. They both have a point, I guess, even though they extend it to contexts where it is completely irrelevant.
Uploading own packages feels so strange. No need to send a diff somewhere...
<Thought> I am about to sell the oldest disks in the world <Hoopy> Those 5 1/4 inch floppys moses saved the 10 command prompts on?
You should ask /dev/null^Wthe buildd maintainer.
I was more concerned about the problem than the solution.
Just because it is old is not an argument in its favour -- nor is it an argument against it.
Saying that a person has no accent is like saying that they have no temperature. Annoyingly, people frequently say that also.
<rahul> oh no, my scsi drive went up 2 degrees <rahul> (I was upgrading java :\)
Our problem as technologists is we can't pretend people don't exist.
Debian never was a conservative distro, so all kind of things can be changed.
In this particular case, the whole was not bigger than the sum of the parts.
<Manoj> Hmm. -private is about to blow up again, I see. <pusling> You make me curious. Either don't leak anything or leak a bit more.
Debian is a thousand-member entity whose members operate according to numerous more or less standardized beliefes and procedures, with various intricate or general twists and undertones.
* Joey notices Alfie can read manpages
Information is what makes people happy.
<madduck> Greek words are among the worst things that could have
happened to academia. Now every shmuck can pretend to
have something to say and make it sound spiffy.
<jaldhar> well boustrophedon to you
<madduck> see? :)
Frankly, a ctte that enforces things like the dev-ref scares the living daylights out of me.
For this discussion, I have borrowed some extra thick armor. I don't know how long it will last.
<Yoe> why does wireless LAN suck so much? <pusling> because it misses its wires? <Yoe> pusling: no, because half your packets go kaboom <pusling> isn't it related ? <Yoe> slightly
Stack-allocated buffers have been changed to heap-allocated buffers to avoid stack corruption security problems.
Electronic mail is not that a good medium for debate.
Basic packaging is something developers can't escape.
Fear is brain chemistry, but so is reason. We have to figure out how reason can trump fear.
The world is producing interesting things for me to read faster than I can read them.
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.
Errrm, we do require one single buildd to be able to keep up with unstable? Quick, let's remove arm from the release!
We are bad developers.
There is no reason to promote the Peter Principle just so we can sit around and sing kombayah.
A combination of being unable to force an unwilling volunteer to share the work plus being able to deny volunteers the ability to do work for arbitrary other reasons (such as "you seem too busy") seems to be a perfect recipe for ensuring that things don't get done.
Just because maintainer scripts aren't written in "relatively difficult languages" like C, that doesn't mean we should be trusting the quality of our OS integration to people with mediocre skills.
Just because people can easily learn to use an application doesn't mean using the application will make them more productive.
I'm sure IBM would have been delighted to learn the merits of SCO's case, had SCO been willing or able to express it with specificity by the deadline, as ordered by the court.
Security is both a reality and a feeling.
See, the more general lesson here is that as soon as you knowingly start using a mail deferral technique, you need to get off the "MY MAIL IS NOT GETTING DELIVERED IMMEDIATELY!!!1!" horse.
I would buy a Mac today if I was not working at Microsoft.
Welcome to wonderful, wacky, never-dull world of free and open source software, where in spite of all the posturing and debate, the answer is always best couched in code.
I'd say that the idea is not compatible with reality.
Plug all the power plugs back in. Not just almost all of them.
Well, checkarray is called checkarray, not fixarray.
Bill Gates is a monocle and a Persian cat away from being the villain in a James Bond movie.
<Lo-lan-do> Wait, isn't anna part of dak? <HE> No <HE> We have no harem anymore.
OMG, so we need a moral-ctte.
Implying that the people whom you'd like to trust you are unreasonable probably isn't a good start.
I would add that quoting without proper context rendering is also a known habits of too many people in MLs and generally used to enforce their own opionions and mantaining very high the level of unuseful flaming.
With the developer community in the driver's seat, expect to see Java programming propelled forward, backward, and sideways, probably all at once.
The context doesn't make the above quote any more pleasant.
If 1% of your products cause widespread damage, 1% of your users are idiots. If 5% of your products cause widespread damage, 5% of your users need training. If 25% of your products cause widespread damage, you are the idiot.
Begin a member of the Debian project is a privilege.
10 people is the best way to ensure nothing ever gets done.
Life is not black & white.
I long ago started believing the users who gave a damn were already gone.
<weasel> dpkg: shut up <dpkg> No, I won't, and you can't make me. :P <weasel> Hah. _I_ can
I suppose I could see a potential conflict of interest in being the buildd admin to introduce a major change, as well as the ftpmaster to allow it;
Everyone will understand that you rank yourself highest!
Judging from broad knowledge, you might send them to /dev/null for maximum effect.
If they can't use the BTS, they can't make a proper Debian package.
It's very rare for a patent owner to go after retail customers.
My guess is if you go after a blogger, it'll provoke the blogosphere. It's a pretty stupid move
Wow, was there a point to your post or was it pure insult?
The reason I find GNOME limiting is because it is.
I moved 6 months ago, but I didn't feel settled in until 2 months ago when I got an internet connection.
Indeed, French people have well-known abilities with tongues.
Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use regular expressions." Now they have two problems.
We are not just glorified packagers.
The people who are most skillful and committed are always seeking to improve their skills.
If you missed my lightning talk about zzuf at FOSDEM, dont worry: I missed it too.
BTW I've counted the security uploads in wordpress' changelog and according to my numbers it had something like 10 or 11 security issues in 3 years. That doesn't sound too bad for such a popular PHP application.
So you only find motivation in things that demotivate Andi?
When you get $1.5 billion, it's hard not to start looking around.
Predictable stable releases are very important.
Do we get to vote on which of you two we'd like to be demotivated?
<joeyh> Why does reportbug eat 130 MB of memory all of a sudden? <KiBi> Browsing wnpp bugs?
Al Viro and Christoph "is my hair blue this week?" Hellwig are famous for being blunt bastards that are negative as hell (and hey, so am I), but they are also well-known for getting things done and mostly being right.
Why are people surprised if the reception they get when calling someone elses code a kludge, and asking if the design decisions were "thought through", without either looking at or contributing to the existing code base would be received less than well?
Yes, it's a technical curdle of crap. I'm going to use it to make fecal cheese.
I adopted some bug hives too.
If there is anyone under our fellow developers who does not know what hex is (and who is not able to look it up and/or understand it when explained), I would second any request for their explusion.
My belief is that the DPL hat is something you can take off.
It is just so much better when the work you are doing has a bit of fun.
The blocker for the etch release for the past 2 months or so has been the kernel.
Being mentor is more difficult than one could expect.
This bit is more or less evil as well...
Nice and constructive does not imply innocent.
It's difficult to pay people to work on core Debian things if you do it publically.
Why ever do anything? You're going to die eventually anyway...
Everything in Debian should be decided by vote. It is so efficient.
There's a difference between criticizing someone's work, and being an insufferable prick.
The problem here is that it may do more harm than good.
* eigood has a 'solution' to the naked pc 'problem' <eigood> buy parts
I think a DPL cannot be a benevolent dictator.
You might not remember who the release team is, but we still want to inform you about the final leg of the etch release cycle.
I don't think the ballot is confusing enough to warrant the expenditure of effort to refactor it in this fashion.
And, yeah, Debian just lost one long-time user, when I have the time...
An ftpmaster must not require money to integrate a new architecture.
Full bellies of fish Penguins sleep under the moon Dream of wings that fly
We're Debian. There is no need to be civilised.
"getdents()" is totally serialized by the inode semaphore.
For historical purposes, you can always use historical kernels.
Why is there always so much month left at the end of the money?
Trolling organizations are illegal in Vanuatu. We shouldn't allow any Debian developers to break the laws of Vanuatu.
All unofficial archives serve a purpose, but they are not all compatible with Debian's primary goals.
I think in some respects Debian is blowing a pretty big opportunity.
Maybe next time maintainers should stop introducing new RC bugs at such a rate that the general freeze is the only choice to continue forward progress. -- Steve Langasek
We never agreed to be nice to each other.
Quantity != quality.
Open drivers aren't magic.
So it seems that the filesystem matters a lot here when there are lots of entries in a directory, and that ext3 is not suitable for usages with thousands of entries in directories with millions of files on disk.
I hope no one is going to grant someone upload privileges based solely on the number of times they've prepared package revisions.
Flamewars are actually fun, when done properly.
Debian developers who review every line from upstream tend to maintain fewer packages and take longer to get new upstream releases packaged.
It is at best a place to pick some ideas among the mountains of nonsense, or to explain a few things to people asking.
You did not like my approach. I did not like yours.
Don't reward yourself with work you didn't really accomplished.
The only thing that changed is that some people started bickering about the flamewars.
Changing filesystems would mean about a week of downtime for a server.
You can be in good faith trying to do something positive and still be the source of flamewar.
You can read the lists without reading nor participating in the flamewars.
In fact, there are rumors floating around that the reason why no one is willing to release source code is that both sides are almost certainly violating each other's trivial patents, and defending against a patent lawsuit can take years, millions of dollars, and even if the patent is completely and totally bogus, can put a company out of business.
I don't think there's anything to be proud of in the way this transition was handled.
I am not sure if the GFDL is a Free Software license, but I don't think the question matters.
Configuring exim4 still sucks.
XFS does rather efficient btree directories, and it does sophisticated read-ahead for directories.
You can't "push" people, you can only "direct" them in a direction that they have nothing against.
I guess selling sharp kitchen knifes in the US is a law suit waiting to happen as well then, people could seriously hurt themselves with those things! Talk about corporate irresponsibility.
The release team will kill you for that change.
Solutions should fix problems and not search problems they could potentially fix.
This is logcheck we're talking about. Please unblock it.
Slowly-growing directories will get splattered all over the disk.
In short: I'd prefer evolution to revolution.
Small Debian shirts are such a rare and precious good!
To put it simply: looking at the code made me cry.
Deliberately or not, Debian maintainers are on average very good at working against the goal of reaching a stable release.
Flamewars are good if the discussions are based on facts.
"Take back the Net" is really going to take a lot more effort than installing Free browers.
While Michael is welcome to be unhappy with it, it doesn't really help to re-open the discussion at this point anymore.
The argument, if I can follow the thread, is about people who review every line of code, like myself, for all new upstream, and anything we sponsor, and wether such activity is desirable and productive.
Nobody will ever forbid you to do code-review.
Now, when I heard George Bush was reading my emails, I probably had the same reaction you did: George Bush can read?!
I usually do not answer to trolls.
Hurd doesn't need a GUI, the pain can be transmitted without visual aids.
The problem is not my behaviour here, it is the behaviour of those others.
The problem is not my behaviour here, it is the behaviour of those others.
If one is being paid to do work, it makes the work no longer a volunteer activity. So says my dictionary.
Every time I read something as stupid as that, I laugh so loudly that one of the kittens in my room dies of heart attack.
Having multiple identities erodes trust, and Debian relies on its developers being able to be trusted.
<dilinger> SANE is not.
Releases are being delayed, because the developers loose to much time fighting between themselves.
The injection of an employer-employee relationship in Debian is not something I think is in the best interest of the project.
<elfez> Good quote: I like the story about the engineers who gave their manager
five copies of the Mythical Man Month so he could read it quicker.
If you listen carefully, you can hear "etch" approaching.
Microsoft themselves acknowledge that their win64 platform is broken by not providing it in the retail boxes for either XP or Vista.
There are psychological factors that have prevented us from reaching our target release date, but that doesn't mean the release team's targets were "intentionally unrealistic".
It seems to me that the election results can, not unreasonably, be interpreted as a vote of appreciation by the Project for the work of the Release Team.
* psn decides not to inquire about gw280's love life <gw280> I have no love life <gw280> I'm a KDE developer <gw280> the closest thing I have to a love life is sleeping with Konqi <lamby> I always look in on this channel at the wrong moments.
The only major MUA not supporting UTF-8 is Eudora.
<ari> I score everyone with an SPF record as a spammer <ari> and domainkeys <ari> more like donkeys
Packages with responsible upstreams who make careful stable releases seem to be compensated for by maintainers who happily introduce regressions of their own.
The ability to cut each port's power individually is optional.
It's a matter of fact that you can't release a stable Debian-grade release every 6 months.
You don't have to be polite to a snafu that can only be fixed by an epoch.
The list of features is a mile long but let me summarize them all down to this simple statement: everything just fucking works exactly as you would expect it to.
Probably better if you all go outside and get some fresh air and daylight instead of playing with your neck beard and pony tail and worrying needlessly about geeky stuff.
Just a note: The new gcc-snapshot is missing on i386 and several other architectures.
The stupidity from the start up with those character sets is that they consider that a whole file is written with a given set.
Most people in the computer industry like powers of two more than they like maths.
If some software still can't handle UTF-8 correctly more than 10 years after it was introduced, that's not a brokenness you can blame on UTF-8.
Topics that are long overdue should, by definition, be discussed and worked on now, regardless of whether "now" happens to be (presented as) close to release time.
Contrary to popular belief and self-delusion, 'stable+backports' is no longer stable.
I'm speaking from experience - if a subsystem maintainer is too busy/working on other projects and the subsystem stops working it produces a rapid and sudden supply of new maintainers, unless nobody cares in which case it can go in the bitbucket.
CIFS seems to be a nasty protocol. Contrary to my usual approach, I shall not write yet another implementation.
It works for me. I tend to reach Inbox Zero quickly because it's just so much fun.
Fact is, when it's in, bugs could be shaken out.
The easier we get our users to report bugs, the hardest we get releases.
Lots of people want to put their databases in a file.
In a project this size, not all activities come to a dead end every couple of years for a few months.
This is the part of the patch series which really matters, and I just don't understand it.
Do you think we need to clarify to people in advance that it's not a good idea to walk around the middle of a city naked?
That comment most certainly is 100% incorrect.
There are distro mirrors on kernel.org, and the most famous ones are downloaded by huge number of people on their release day.
The DPL never does anything important (the cabal makes sure of that), no matter what grand promises they make in their election platforms.
I was under the impression that before 2.0, Debian wasn't released as binaries yet, only source packages and the source code to the utilities needed to build the packages.
Security is a small but important piece of the bigger picture.
Multi-threaded USB is about to go away as it caused too many problems for people, and they didn't read the Kconfig help entry about it.
So well, you can try to fight against POSIX, some tried, we don't have any news from them since.
Cloning a bug 50 times is tiresome.
If we would take 'no regressions' seriously, it might take 4 or 5 months between releases due to the lack of developer manpower for handling regressions.
Just for the record, I promoted 1003.13 to 10003.13 and that's not only incorrect, but scary.
I can't decide whether release management work or porting work leaves me the more dismayed with the quality of some upstream software.
Don't trick me with logic.
Debian has always been an organisation of enthusiastic amateurs.
It is the lack of respect for others' property that makes graffiti a crime, not the content.
I've been a Linux fan for years, but lately I wonder if the drum beating from the big IT vendors in favor of open source hasn't finally slipped over the edge from sincere enthusiasm to meaningless - or in some cases downright hypocritical - sloganeering.
This language needs templates.
Because some customers are migrated from mainframes, they want to control almost all features in OS, IOW, designing memory usages.
In general, though, I would agree that the major number should change if there is an incompatible change.
If I don't install Debian on this, it will feel like a brick to me anyway!
Reykjavik is a fantastic place with some truely wonderful Linux folks.
If I hear one more person complaining about the insanity of a relatively short number being copyrightable, I'm going to become ridiculously upset.
As in, the fastest ARM CPU that exists in the world? As far as I know, that would be the 1.2 GHz Intel IOP342 (dual core.)
Some people deserve to be offended. Those who get outraged by moronic parody crap are amongst them.
Please try to be less hostile to newcomers.
Simply limiting the page cache with no regard to the potential for particular content to be later reused seems a rather pointless exercise which is guaranteed to diminish system performance.
We support at least 25 separate architectures, with a huge variety of different variations within those architectures.
Open source faces no more, if not less, legal risk than proprietary software.
There isn't much traffic on the VAX related development lists (neither for *BSD not for Linux), but things are slowly progressing.
For once Microsoft is getting the reverse Linux laptop experience: little support and little documentation for the hardware.
If you magnify the wrong part, you might magnify a little problem that would be no problem at all without the big problem you want to resolve.
I don't think Nexenta is ready to be included right now, but with the time things take in Debian, we could just as well start looking at technical problems now.
There's only one voice I can hear moaning about the process. The same voice I seem to remember moaning about for the past few years.
Since memory size has increased a lot more than disk speed over the last decade, the quality of page replacement algorithms is likely to become more and more important over time.
-!- Guest5 is now known as weasel -!- weasel is now known as Guest15 -!- Guest9 is now known as Ganneff -!- Ganneff is now known as Guest16
I don't think that taking a year or two to merge a driver is going to impress a vendor[..]
The great thing about the Internet, is that no matter how bonkers it gets, there is always someone to take it to the next level.
It's simply that the last time someone completely understood this 120 kB driver was in the last millenium.
Actually, I'm a bit disgusted at Intel for not even _mentioning_ AMD in their documentation or their releases, so I'd almost be inclined to rename the thing as "AMD64" just to give credit where credit is due.
Not all of the network driver developers read the whole lkml firehose.
We prefer not to oops.
Is Sven Luther going to debconf7? If so, need we worry about his safety there?
It doesn't matter who invented the wheel first, what matters is a clean channel of communication so that we end up with the best code - and leaving out Cc:s doesn't really help that.
There's a difference between an argument and flaming.
Aside from Web browser flaws there are not actually that many remote vulnerabilities these days for attackers to write exploits for.
Now I am sure you didn't need to know all that.
I think we need a new variant of Godwin's law. As soon as anyone mentions Sven versus Frans versus Aj versus d-i versus the DAMs, the thread should cease immediately.
Professional is not a synonym of dictatorial.
To be able to say something is wrong, you dont need to know whats right.
I remember a time when Debian was like a family, maybe it is more so now just a dysfunctional one.
<Yoe> why oh why does firefox need to be such a resource hog? <ari> because it's C++ <Yoe> that's not a good reason
I've always gone to the doctor with problems, not solutions.
One big and new portion is the fact that we now have in place a system to handle NDAs for those companies that do not wish to provide specs to the whole world.
Well, there is a 2.6.x based VAX port, though it needs some updates to incorporate the last few months of upstream development. But NetBSD still does better hardware support.
The market needs to understand that the study Microsoft is citing actually proves the opposite of what they claim it does.
An uncharitable vendor might decide it's not worth publishing specs, since the Linux guys can reverse engineer the Windows driver just as fast anyway.
It's certainly a lot more likely that Microsoft violates patents than Linux does.
ndiswrapper is a way to make it work "now" as opposed to "correct".
I wish hurd was purged from unstable on ftp.*.debian.org since it would stop Hurd's build status from influencing the BTS versioning code.
The GNU Project had to develop gzip instead of a drop-in replacement for Unix compress very early in its growth.
Having something as essential as the dpkg database depend on a system as complex as a relational database is asking for trouble.
What John explained is that the cumulated downloads during the 12 first hours after FC6 releases totalized 13 TB of data sent to the net, which is indeed 2 gig links at full load. Impressive!
I always used to think the security industry existed to make people scared and then sell them something to protect them from what they were afraid of.
Probably better if you go outside, too, rather than playing with your neck beard and pony tail and worrying about three year old threads.
I can't imagine there ever being a 100 percent secure operating system, because a vital component of programming that operating system is human.
They'd have to name the patents then, and they're probably happier with the FUD than with any lawsuit.
Never underestimate a well-placed !
I can hear Evgeniy crying 8,000 miles away.
I find it misleading to users to say that package "foo-doc" is free, when foo's documentation is blatantly non-free.
We actually have almost zero "interesting" data in the task-struct.
I'm waiting to be shown that its benefits exceed its costs.
I apologize for the noise, and I apologize for not realizing that all threads are really about Sven.
A lot of a lot of things could have been avoided, if they just did it right the first time.
<mattb> sarge update, etch release and new DPL within 12 hours <mattb> are we sure it's not still April 1?
So Dell is shipping laptops with Feisty. What happens in 6 months?
I would really have prefered that the people writing the ACPI code had focused first on power-on/power-off before the rest.
10gig Ethernet will be commodity hardware 5 years from now like 1gig Ethernet today where you can get cards for 12 Euro and switches for 40 Euro.
I'm appalled to learn that one of the most active developers, who maintains 56 packages and sponsors 220, doesn't seem to have even a basic understanding of how testing and stable releases are managed.
Ouch, yet another interpreter in kernel. Can we reuse ACPI or something?
Beer virtually prepones deadlines.
No log to syslogd should be lost, since it may be related to an attack.
That is a very valid question.
<st_u> You know how svenl is crazy? <st_u> I'm crazy too, but in a less destructive way.
I don't have a problem with people who don't have time to deal with their packages properly; I do however have a problem with those same people asking questions like "What are we waiting for?"
<Kinnison> XML is like violence. If it doesn't work, add MORE!
I hate those days more where you look into the fridge and the abyss looks back.
Could you try something as simple and accepting that maybe this is a problem?
It's random as all the best bugs are.
I guess I am short circuiting my thinking process.
Sometimes, in life, you have to make compromises.
The moment we become an organization that seeks legal advice in order to do something that is our prerogative, is the moment the organization needs to die a horrible death.
I think it's quite disingenuous to imply that a few bad apples are a representative sample.
If I understand correctly, you want the project to choose a social committee that could teach you how not to be an asshole?
Physical processes are hard to pause.
You know it, tags are web 2.0 and web 2.0 is sexy and since I want to be sexy, I need tags.
Nobody creates perfect code in the first round, except me.
An integer overflow vulnerability has been reported in file allowing for the user-assisted execution of arbitrary code.
<markit> Win2K minimal installation is 645MB...
XP minimal 2.5GB, and with SP2 has reached... 3.9GB!!!
<balrog-kun> impressive :)
<ths> 4 GB, and the best means of editing a file is still notepad.exe.
NAK, very much NAK.
A good understanding of the effects (ie, providing answers to questions seems like a good thing to have before making decisions about them.
<ifvoid> why is is that I can't leave for a few days without finding a
huge flame in my -private mailbox?
<weasel> ifvoid: you would stop us with words of reason
<weasel> ifvoid: it's no fun having a flamewar then, so we wait
<weasel> it's like waiting for your parents to leave for vacation
when you want to throw a party
Not every post needs to be dissected ad nauseum and turned into a hundred message thread.
Never underestimate the power of Debian trolls.
Believing in a DRM business model is like joining Star Fleet security, putting on your red shirt, and volunteering to beam down to the new unexplored planet with Kirk, Spock and McCoy.
The Debian Project team is not simply a team anymore - it is a society.
Obviously I was either onto something, or on something. --Larry Wall on the creation of Perl
P.S.: Mark Shuttleworth, you have all my sympathy for recognizing
the weakness of the Debian Project early enough to do it better.
Communities and Companies compete more then ever these days. The same as Bloggers compete with the old school media.
Emacs is for people who desperately want to get drunk, but feel guilty doing so without a reason.
If you cannot admit that you might have a problem, you'll never get anywhere.
Money is nice, but integrity is everything.
I am not comfortable with a GR that micromanages how I do my work.
If you're trying to get rid of all the DDs who make (frequent) mistakes, then I guess I should be one of the first on the chopping block.
Being trusted to upload packages means you are trusted to upload packages.
So if Solaris doesn't need it, why do we need it on Linux?
The GCC maintainers decided that they will add it only when the d-i maintainers need it, and the d-i maintainer decided to not need it.
I'm not going to make it easy for all the forkers.
I rather fight then self-censor.
I want to hear something like "It's GPL" or "It's in Debian."
<madduck> it's final, git is the only worthwhile VCS <madduck> no other VCS allows you to say witty stuff like "git the code" <ari> git in the car <madduck> and pop the trunk <madduck> fits debian workflow perfectly, you see?
If we lived in the matrix, the users could be free software. That would simplify things a bit.
I do have grave concerns about installing an all-powerful soc-ctte that carries big sticks, while leaving vacuums at these lower levels.
We did rate the Microsoft security researcher as less-bad than the people who prepare the carcasses for dissection in biology laboratories.
Why do people seem to think that listing people in the Uploaders field is a good idea if these people aren't supposed to upload a package?
There are so many clever things that could be done.
* madduck stares at bandwidthcalc
<madduck> who the heck sponsored this? A Gtk calculator that cannot
do anything but multiply by powers of 1024 and divide?
I belong to the modern diaspora of migrants stuck between diverse cultures, belonging perfectly to neither.
Quick question: is there some reason why we have to honor the crazy GCC rules, and cannot try to convince GCC people that they are insane?
Why on earth should we teach children that
they are not allowed to share the toys?
-- Patrick Harvie, Member of the Scottish Parliament
Modifying the archive structure for every broken law is not a viable option.
The goal of the FOSS herd is to turn everything into homogeneous shit, with no trace of individual character left.
Debian systems, as it stands, are at a high risk of being broken when many third-party debs are installed on them. Especialy if those debs were built on an Ubuntu system.
Corrupt JPEG data: 226 extraneous bytes before marker 0xd9heir code in the kernel tree, then I'm not going to forcefully put it there.
Something using 4 GB is rather annoying if you only have 2.
Audio devices are not seekable anyway.
My apologies for the long absence. I volunteered to serve in a remote, underserved area (no internet connection, no cellular site, with only a computer running Windows 95). I thought it would last only a few weeks but due to unforeseen circumstances, lasted half a year.
Subversion has been the most pointless project ever started.
Scrolling windows is incredibly jerkey, and very very sluggish when images are involved.
For "big servers", Suse SLES and RedHat RHEL are the defacto choices, with Ubuntu a rising star.
This sort of concern is too subjective for me to have an opinion on it.
You people really know how to create user interfaces.
<JD> argh java burns
<JD> it burns us
<fledermaus> You can't just burn in flames. You need to instantiate an
OxygenStream then on top of that a BufferedOxygenConsumer then give
that as parameters to a FlameProducerConsumerFactoryQueue.
After all, running X and ripping CD's and MP3 encoding them is not exactly an esoteric use case.
You might want to read up on the Unix design philosophy. Things like record based I/O are user space to avoid kernel complexity and also so that the overhead of these things is paid only by those who need them (it's kind of RISC for OS design).
How about defining all the other EFLAGS in one place?
Yay, even more crap in the archive! Go for it!
Oh, and I always thought PTYs were moved to free up more minors for our zillions of serial ports...
I also know of systems with 50 serial ports on them. The fact that some of the serial ports on the front panel were named differently then other serial ports on the front panel sure didn't make my life easier in dealing with them.
The NM process is far more flexible than you seem to think.
Your ARM example holds zero water because that platform has all kinds of weird devices so people there are used to all kinds of non-standard conventions and naming.
Every useful software is the pet project of someone.
It really is that simple. GCC is broken. The C language isn't, it's purely a broken compiler issue.
As tempting as it is, reimplementations from scratch are almost never the right solution to a problem.
I cannot believe all these big system people are allowed to screw everybody else up with their nonsense.
Common sense? Is that the thing one cannot commonly expect?
The use of 16-bit Minix device numbers was a major headache in Linux for many, many years.
The more I see arguments in favor of DM [Debian Maintainer] the more it's about introverted geeks, and uncoordinated work.
You don't get machines with 64 ethernet ports on add-in cards.
The GR is needed to avoid James using his DSA privileges to revert and block the changes and to avoid Joerg using his DAM privileges to blacklist anyone who participates in the queue from joining Debian in future.
Making bitfields unsigned is actually usually a good idea.
Issues imposed by high latency, high packet loss or slow DNS servers are likely to be doubled by the double DNS query.
Debian can only make this worse, through any action happening in any official capacity, in any direction.
If you do not agree with him just flame him from your blog in the fine tradition of Planet Debian.
Now you'll excuse me while I drive a nail through my delete key.
MODULE_AUTHOR really has meant maintainer in practice for ages, and it's the only actually relevant for users information we should store.
That's really the bug. Let's fix it.
Maybe wearing a black t-shirt while dusting my bedroom for the first time in years wasn't such a good idea.
I'd almost prefer to just put the zombie children on a separate list. I wonder how painful that would be...
What about attacking the explosion of kernel threads?
Thanks for your concern, but I have read the whole thread. Sorry if my opinions don't fit with your imagination.
We can't stop supporting functionality that has been there forever.
Subversion is more or less just CVS under a different name.
You may not care about licenses, but a lot of people do. And they are a real issue.
I think I'm wearing holes in my platters.
Whether or not they're relevant depends on how well they happen to reflect your particular usage pattern.
The SCSI subsystem has undergone many, many changes since 2.6.0.
Please don't expose kernel pointers to user space.
The weather is bloody fantastic. It was autumn 2 days ago. Now it's summer again.
<holst> how do i use this package? <holst> muttprint - Pretty printing of mails <holst> never mind forgot im using debian <holst> /usr/share/*/doc
It looks like Germany is the new Portugal, actually.
I don't think "overcoming Linus Torvalds' irrational biases" is a well-formed release goal.
In a widely anticipated move, Linux "headcase" Torvalds today announced the immediate availability of the most advanced Linux kernel to date, version 2.6.20.
3h32m and 47GB of extracted files later, I now have the results and there is no MD5 collision in the Debian archive.
Aren't we using ASCII for C sources?
Actually I've seeing git bisect lying on me, too.
I agree that the devil will be in the details, but so far it's really simple.
Reiser4 has great potential and I'll be more than happy to test it.
MODULE_AUTHOR is extremely important for licensing enforcement. Removing it should not be an option.
What professional software engineering experience do you have on large software projects that qualifies you to determine what software "is likely to need little testing"?
My concern was that since Ingo said that this is a closed economy, with a fixed sum/total, if we lose a nanosecond here and there, eventually we'll lose them all.
Taking in a new code base on such a track record is not a good idea when the code is not in a shape where the community wants to maintain it.
Has there ever been a case where an RFP bug has actually stimulated anyone into packaging a given piece of software?
Benchmarks suggest that reiser4 is a good file system.
Do you actually have a point to make, or is this just generic trolling?
Did you even try to understand what I wrote?
Ideally, we would replace passwords with a better authentication system, but I'm not sure that's going to be feasible.
Competent QA and testing people test all the returns in the manual as well as all the returns they can find in the code.
Backporting is nearly always better left as a manual endeavour.
Rusty, that's a work of art.
A Perl script is "correct" if it gets the job done before your boss fires you.
Well, regressions are regressions.
Never contain programs so few bugs, as when no debugging tools are available!
Currently about 99.5% of all incoming mail to lists.debian.org is discarded before it gets delivered.
Running unknown binaries isn't exactly recommended practise.
OOXML is a superb standard and yet, it has been FUDed so badly by its competitors that serious people believe that there is something fundamentally wrong with it.
This has been rejected several times already.
Pascal is both weak and inelegant compared with LISP.
MySQL keeps insisting on being a fun way to waste your time.
It's a lot easier to debug things that go wrong when it just does what you ask it for, instead of writing to memory and doing something totally obscure.
I once ran a Linux machine with 8M of RAM and used a floppy disk as a swap device.
Linux definitly missed the hype value.
We worked quite hard this weekend, with nearly no sleep at all, give us some time to rest before we do the announcement.
But we're Debian. We try anyway. And we try to do it the best way possible, not just acceptable.
[Subversion - CVS done right] If you start with that kind of slogen, there is no way to go.
Understanding whether or not a benchmark is relevant to one's particular application is one of the trickiest things about benchmarks.
Everyone is breaking stuff in unstable uncoordinated at a rate that it's hard to get complicated packages to migrate.
If you believe that my patch adds a new problem then please describe it clearly so that I can understand it.
The whole point of util-linux-ng is to make forward progress.
Who says we have to register our trademark to protect it?
Nobody in their right mind thinks that "disable DMA" and "suspend" are similar operations.
XUL is the Java of the new millenium.
This is an issue but, I guess, not a Debian issue.
The numbers here are old enough to be nearly meaningless. Until it is updated, use this document only as proof that SQLite is not a sluggard.
Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information.
Linux can be made to behave more like Windows XP than Windows Vista can.
I'd almost prefer to just not add kernel threads to any parent process list *at*all*.
Asking an engineer at HP for part numbers is like asking Ganneff for the right mixture of fuel for a 747.
I knew this DM thing was broken, but I hadn't understood yet the point of cluelessness it required to be designed.
We should use RCS, so that everyone is equally displeased with the choice.
<Jon> Oh Christ I have to edit a csh script written in 1993 <broonie> Jon: Does rm qualify as an editor?
PS. Yes, I realize that there's a lot of insane people out there. However, we generally don't do kernel design decisions based on them.
I think Debian should secure itself a revenue stream by patenting this sophisticated text compression algorithm.
<WombleToo> iSCSI over avian carrier! <Noodles> Do it, dude. <WombleToo> I think it would take all day just to log in <murb> i think the last hardware iscsi target i played with was hamster powered.
So there's no reason to assume indifference, it can just as well be dislike.
What's the purpose of "keyring" group if files are "troup:root"?
I believe we should be able to resolve this.
<weasel> who is rebooting master? <weasel> ah, weasel <weasel> bad weasel
I respectfully but strongly disagree with this.
A larger committee might be a good thing for lots of reasons, but I'm not convinced it will help the problem I think you're trying to address as much as this implies.
Trademarks don't have to be registered in order to be infringed, [..]
I'm very pleased to see that a team as new as the DM one works already so great that only 2 of its alleged members are aware of what's currently happening. I'm thrilled.
ISA bus cycles are *slow*, the subtle processor cache and gcc triggered timing changes are lost in the noise.
If you do not care about bug, why do you ever bothered filling it?
If you are a carrier in telephony and don't want downtime, this stuff is pure gold.
I bet that multiarch gets included into Ubuntu about two weeks after we released lenny without multiarch.
Maybe because your private mission is to hunt the paddy.
If you have a subtractive decoding bridge you will have completion on HT.
<nenolod> There needs to be an 'extras' repo that
isn't supported by security team then.
<Lo-lan-do> We have it already. It's called Ubuntu.
I feel I've been called a thief.
Constant pressure from the outside lead to interesting constructs such as ftp-assistants and an account manager without actual permissions to manage accounts.
Swap on loopback could deadlock with whatever file system, not only FUSE.
Apparently heise.de finds it interesting to make fun of me explaining how you can use the belgian eID with Open Source tools, but then failing to do so myself.
If you go to the doctor because of aching throat and he asks you to open a mouth, you will not blame him for asking you to do that.
I don't have a huge problem with oligarchies for technical projects.
There is a habit of treating corporate developers as somehow inferior to the purer old-timers.
As I have learned, you didn't really want to answer that.
Why you want to cripple an existing, rather well working and popular Linux driver is beyond me.
If you know so much what you are doing, and are so active, why did you wait right before base freeze to upload disruptive changes to the very base of our infrastructure?
You're so full of crap that it's not even funny.
There's no promises that we'll ship any particular package at all in Lenny yet, and I'm not sure that saying we're shipping djb's software is *good* news.
There is something really weird going on here.
Debian is called the universal OS, not the drug free OS.
Linus, can you revert the revert now?
Let me get this straight. The argument is that since it is hard to remove people for cause in Debian, let us just start removing people at random, even if they are performing well, and maybe, sometime, somehow, that change may lead to an improvement?
I wasn't aware Linus had introduced a new rule that required 500 people sign up to use a feature before it gets added.
AJ says that what is needed is `new blood'. I suspect that part of what he means is that he wants rid of me.
I do care about the goal of the freeze: "release a top quality distribution in the planned timeframe". Raphaël Hertzog
We've actually had such bugs before, it isn't the first time.
I love when people suggest that netconf's control socket should be a web service so it can be controlled from a remote machine. It's like giving a robot knowledge about how to turn off its power supply.
How the devil would holding a superblock prevent umount -l?
It is not the secretary's job to think of everything.
I don't think that DDs are so simple-minded and easily influenced by public ballots.
I care about Linux.
The code behind times.debian.net is more a "proof of concept" than a real solution.
<pusling> When was apt-get moo implemented? <Corsac> A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away
Please apply the attached patch and report the oops.
I suspect by the time a fully working multiarch is done, x86 won't need it anymore because everything will be fully 64bit.
I hate the excuses of "but, but, but.. it *should* work". It doesn't. Face that, *then* you can argue about why.
Kinda funny thing to ship a deb inside a source package. Like stuffying and egg back into the chicken.
This old chestnut again.
90% of the people do not understand copyright, the other 10% simply ignore it.
Bugs are bugs, they either depend on hardware or do not.
If this makes people happy then I am happy to ack this.
I agree with the analysis, but the proposed Charter concept looks like working around the Constitution's change process.
If you prefer denigrating my contributions to answering questions to the list, please do so more convincingly.
For a normal foreign block filesystem a proper kernel implementation is much better. Christoph Hellwig
I'd prefer if people would stop creating 300 different planets all of whom have almost-but-not-quite the same content. My webserver's bandwidth will thank you.
Stefan and Yidong offered to take over, so I am willing to hand over Emacs development to them.
I would think taking a class in reading mails prior to running for DPL would be a good thing for you.
Sadly, we don't actually have any reasonably sane way of doing that.
Hey, give the man time.
Blame me for not realising that completions were semaphores under a different name.
The real cause is that the Motif API is broken by design. How do you propose we fix that?
I sincerely hope that people will stop limiting themselves to broken and bad APIs just because some tiny amount of crazy people think it is cool to run archaic UNIXes.
I don't personally think that the Technical Committee suffers primarily from members having limited time to devote.
Please make us confident that we won't get our butts sued off or something.
Yeah, because promising to tell people about what you do and then not doing that is really not a "fault". We should all applaud you for this great display of your willingness to avoid offending people.
I just managed to reproduce the bug in simulation.
When someone tells you "Debian policy sucks, my hack rules", the answer "Don't upload to Debian, then" is perfectly legitimate.
I'd say yes, but I think that would be dangerous to my own life :)
I tend to question what the DPL election and an Ubuntu release has to do with creating new DDs.
I think everyone is in a violent agreement here but prefers to keep talking to appear that they not agree.
The glibc and gcc teams where nice enough to add the patches for multiarch support but binutils has just kept stubborn.
This filesystems is an almost 0 maintainance burden unlike a lot of really crappy driver we're shoving in constantly.
Calling jetring "complex" is a bit of a misnomer, given that it consists of a mere 690 lines of code. That's 6x less code than ls.c; it's actually less code than is present in cat.c ...
I'm not seeing why ndiswrapper should be treated separately. If it loads non-GPL modules, it shouldn't be able to use GPLONLY symbols.
I find it extremely annoying when people claim offense on behalf of unspecified third parties, when no real adult actually is so wet as to have actually been offended.
I just think it would be a great idea if packages would actually build.
Looks like armel arch hit the archive yesterday. Could we in future hope for some kind of announcement or warning before being hit with ten gigs of new arch?
With Linux, we have a major advantage in that kernel improvements are coming from multiple companies in the ecosystem, instead of being paid for by a single company.
Frankly speaking, I don't think that you always know what you're doing.
There's quite a lot of developers who came to Linux with a corporate background and are fully integrated into the "scene".
I give up. Life is significantly better at parody than I am.
Just be careful, results are produced for the big picture and not used to point fingers at individuals.
This is absolutely precious. It is wrong of me to belittle a proposal, but it is all right for you to attack the man, and not the argument. Am I correct in assuming that the logical fallacy escaped you?
There is no perfect world where after reporting subtle bug it will be fixed.
I don't have particularly strong opinions either way.
Unfortunately git currently doesn't deal with directory renames, so if there was sime big code restructuring one has to provide all historic pathspecs.
I'm opposed to designing something around the freezer since we know it will ultimately go away.
Are you saying the dependent package should install successfully and then fail at runtime? If not, what are you saying?
We made writing block based filesystems trivial in the kernel to grow more support for filesystems like this one.
The last weeks have demonstrated reasonable well that it works in case the DPL uses the powers he has.
A license can ruin a perfectly good piece of software.
Why the hell do you think this list is the proper place to ask about nvidia's marketing plans?
S is the statistician's Matlab and R is to S what Octave is to Matlab.
20% harder is at least 30% too much.
It's a binary question. The blacklist is either complete, or it's not.
Isn't the whole trademark mess a locally administered bug?
Most of this documentation, if we really wanted it, has already leaked out on the Internet years ago.
If you don't understand the way release management actually works (and it does work), please just don't answer on mail to debian-release.
The world does not spin around Debian.
I was particularly fond of people who automatically restored compromised authorized_keys after I had moved them away. It made my life so much more interesting.
<lucas> I tried to delay Ubuntu releases at some point,
but they don't really care about FTBFS.
Lately I really start wondering why we keep adding crap all over the core, but if we have a modular new filesystem that's quite nice people start complaining.
Note that our problem is too much inlining, not too little.
You prefer a crippled ABI or a machine that doesn't boot with no console at all to see what happened because the console driver refused to initialize due to such a sysfs file conflict?
Names can be argued about separately to functionality.
IOW, everything happened exactly the way it is SUPPOSED to happen.
If a new upstream version is needed to fix an issue, how does kicking the current version out of testing help with that effort?
A controlled dial-on-demand router is a convenient tool. An uncontrolled dial-on-demand router is not.
Currently there is no sufficient negative pushback on people who insert broken crud into the tree.
The core problem is that every maintainer has his own subjective, asymetric view and experience about this matter: to him his own tree is almost problem-free and most problems are very easy to fix, while other problems in other trees are nuisance that should never have been put upstream.
lkml is a hell-hole with a signal/noise ratio worse than slashdot.
What I do try to encourage is for people to think publicising their git trees as version announcements.
People generally expect that code that has been merged does work, so they don't look at it unless they're forced to (by a bug or the desire to make further modifications in that code) and they don't explicitly seek to test it. They just seek to use it.
When a teacher assigns grades in a class, it's not punishment, it's feedback.
Code must be readable without comments, but magic choices must be commented if there's an underlying reason.
You're on an old kernel, don't know if your problem is fixed, and ask us to slow down development.
My recommendation would be to concentrate on deeper testing (more coverage) on the architectures you have.
Bizarre, so you are using deliberately misconfigured ancient userspace to complain about UTF-8.
People work on new code before, during, and after the merge window.
You're making technical responses to a question about process.
You should try VMS. Now there was a stable system.
I don't think anyone *intends* to push crap into the tree.
Judging from the degree how good sysklogd is "maintained", if sysklogd's owner (I don't dare to say "maintainer" here for a reason) needs to consent, we'll have sysklogd as default syslogd until hell freezes over.
From an UI perspective we often want to select options that have dependencies.
As a result, we really couldn't afford to let gcc make any inlining decisions, because the compiler was simply broken.
It might help your motivation slightly to think of stable as a sub-par and largely irrelevant derived distribution bolted onto the side of the real Debian.
If the point release is delayed so long that there's a new full release out before it's done, then *no one* gets the benefit of being able to install a supported Debian release on hardware that wasn't supported before.
This is starting to get beyond frustrating for me.
It would be really interesting to have some way to check our assumptions.
The Pentium 4 is properly called the P7, but almost noone calls it that.
I always wondered why there is no "grey out", at least optionaly.
Privacy protects us from abuses by those in power, even if we're doing nothing wrong at the time of surveillance.
In other words, inlining is about much more than pure optimization.
Yesterday, I spent the whole day bisecting boot failures on my system due to the totally untested linux/bitops.h optimization, which I fully analyzed and debugged.
Hey, sorry about invading your turf of trivial patches.
So I'm not willing to play stupid tricks on the language until I see any evidence that the situation of woman became better because of doing this.
The package vegastrike-data-0.5.0 is suitable to go into main and if uploaded and accepted would fit in the archive at about 1GB total.
Who killed my SCSI driver?
A modern OS is a very complicated system with tens of millions of code lines and you can't assume they all program the hardware in the same way.
Debian's freeze sounds like a technical hack to address a social problem, and that disturbs me a bit.
Please don't use my posting as an opportunity to portray BSD as the best thing since sliced bread.
If somebody wanted to get rid of the m68k port they would just have to place a bomb here. No, really.
The state of web applications today makes me stabby. Should I troll #wordpress on freenode?
Privacy is a basic human need.
Contrary to popular belief empathy is not same as compassion.
People in LWN are going batshit over Debian having code names for releases. They think it is juvenile.
Your whole argument is premised on the assumption that the compiler does the right thing.
The current way of dealing with folks who stick broken crud into the tree results in zero change in behvaior.
Too bad David Welton missed the obvious replacement verb for "blog", "wank".
I wish we'd get about as much coverage of American news in these times as international news gets airtime on American TV.
You can post whatever patches you like a million times to lkml.
Oh, my network doesn't work. Maybe I should plug in the cable.
Modern versions of GCC may do the right thing.
This patch is in serious need of introducing some constants to be used with driver_data and not plain numbers.
Non-free is for GNU documentation.
<normes> 08:53 [OFTC] -!- Irssi: Unable to connect server irc.oftc.net port 9999 [Erfolg]
* GyrosGeier needs more monitors <GyrosGeier> maybe I should connect something to the Amigas as well * GyrosGeier watches the WAF of his room decrease <Yoe> WAF? <GyrosGeier> Woman Acceptance Factor
Meanwhile, Rockbox has performed a valuable service for Debian developers who would otherwise have to struggle to find a project with longer release cycles than their own.
<jaldhar> Remind them Linux has a GUI now. Many people still don't know that <weasel> Linux has a GUI!?
Please either catch up or stop maintaing packages in Debian.
Debian is violating the DFSG by using a non-DFSG license for its website.
The people who sit and git bisect their lives away to get the regressions fixed need more positive reinforcement.
I believe that gNewSense is a great idea, since it tends to keep far from Debian the worst nutcases.
<waldi> madwifi? kernel-package? <HE> grammar? verbs? <waldi> no
Why can't I resize an xterm to 80 characters wide? It jumps between 79 and 81.
Instead, you seem to be saying, "How could anyone be so stupid as to use a non-symbolic name?" When nobody is actually being that stupid. We're just using the symbolic name we were told to use the last time the names were changed.
The fate of empires is very often sealed by the interaction of war and debt.
AFAIK, contrib exists only to ensure that main is self-contained, which is a requirement outside the scope of the SC (read: lower priority).
<azeem> svenl: The Joey incident is over
Could you please talk over IRC like normal people?
When we've frozen lenny, we planned to not include any more disruptive changes - a major rewrite is such a change we would like to avoid if possible.
Because we networking folks use a seperate mailing list with a lower signal to noise ratio than lkml, and as a result more specialization, more patches get more review by more specialists.
Every kernel upload changing the ABI goes through NEW.
The so-called new copyright format is made of crap and should be silently ignored.
You're just replacing one random gcc choice with another random one.
Having open source projects in the mix ensures there will always be some competition for the market-leading firm no matter what happens in the marketplace.
I'm very glad that history has shown most developers disagree with you.
May I suggest that people cool down a little bit and don't assume the worst from the other participants of the discussion.
I mean, the so called cabal is merely a bunch of guys who trust each others judgement.
Before too long, Voyager owners (both of them) should once again have full support for their beloved architecture in the mainline kernel.
Is there a reason why those interested in supporting blob-dependent hardware can't make a release that includes those blobs?
<Bryce1> my knoppix install is stuck on 76% <Bryce1> any suggestions?
Could you please explain this in something that does not try to compete with German sentences in length?
This document describes a protocol (IKE) using part of Oakley and part of SKEME in conjunction with ISAKMP to obtain authenticated keying material for use with ISAKMP, and for other security associations such as AH and ESP for the IETF IPSec DOI.
Don't advertise for collaboration, just do it.
With regards to unstable, testing is a step backward.
<sECuRE> forget rapid prototyping, we have rapid bugfixing ;)
I did design a 27 instructions, 4 bit microprocessor with microcode, so I get what firmware is.
NM currently doesn't test candidates technical level, it tests their patience threshold.
If Debian or whoever else have these concernes and want to rip the firmware out, it is one hundred percent their problem to patch things out of the kernel tree they use.
I don't care at all about the argument from that camp.
You know that when you run out of questions, you don't just run out of answers. You run out of hope.
So, what's the process to get rid of the Project Secretary?
Keep away from Wikipedia contributors, they're all maniacs.
<dholbach> Last day of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek starting in
34 minutes in #ubuntu-classroom on irc.feenode.net
* ScottK hands dholbach an "r".
<Rhonda> Are they fundraising again?
Being the richest man in the cemetery doesn't matter to me... Going to bed at night saying we've done something wonderful... that's what matters to me.
If user space depended on old behavior, we don't change behavior.
Discussions with Jörg produce nice quotes.
I know, I'm being *so* unfair; I'm expecting application programmers to be competent...
<meebey> weasel: and honestly 50mb is pretty much for a small application <weasel> no kidding
Be a yardstick of quality. Some people aren't used to an environment where excellence is expected.
I support stopping this GR and starting all over, if this is possible.
It is very rare to find a current system which is both sufficiently resource constrained to want to compile out power management support and sufficiently power insensitive to be able to tolerate doing so.
In Soviet Russia, DebConf Team censors you!
Apple denies that, based on their common meaning, the words `app store' together denote a store for apps.
<Lo-lan-do> Hm. My Bitlbee IRC-to-IM gateway tells me someone's been idle for 366012:29:54 <Lo-lan-do> I'm positive that person wasn't born at that time.
It used to be that a handful of editors could decide what was news \226 and what was not. They acted as sort of demigods. If they ran a story, it became news. If they ignored an event, it never happened...
Hate is definitively the wrong way to propagate FLOSS.
It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them.
If "asm volatile" means that the asm can still be moved around arbitrarily (including across other asm volatiles etc), then the whole "volatile" has no meaning at all.
<slef> schultmc: has your twitter been cracked, or are you really
selling lingerie now?
Reality is sometimes more complicated than stories tell.
<zack> can you please mail me about it, I guess it'll be quicker than completing the syn/ack cycle... <daemonkeeper> RST <murb> FIN <daemonkeeper> ACK, FIN <bremner> ACK PTHHHK! <paultag> RST <daemonkeeper> You all badly lack TCP-fu :p <algernon> they're just cisco routers facing a SACK <paultag> CRACK <bremner> TCP? I thought this was Bill the Cat.
# TODO This fails when today == eom. # End of Month
There's a fine line between warrior and moron.
Microsoft are now trying to use the patent system as fungicide.
We are not living in an ASCII world anymore.
Debian had multiple choices for init scripts for a long time (file-rc versus sysv-rc). I don't think there's any good reason to throw that out the window.
Changing configuration files is fine, as long as you keep any changes the admin has made.
If insserv breakes all other options there is a problem and this currently is the case.
Sean's Law: The remaining playtime of a song on the radio is inversely proportional to how much you like it.
Anyway, we all know Ubuntu is just a crappy overlay on top of Sid, bundled with proprietary blobs.
If it's a bug people rely on, it's not a bug, it's a feature.
Forks are not the efficient way to work with Debian.
* GyrosGeier lernte gerade: mit systemd muss das initramfs /usr mounten <GyrosGeier> Alles andere ist unsupported und wird durch rescue Shell bestraft
least-favourite GUI toolkit rolled into one, right? ;P
We are very careful about what features we add because we can't take them away.
Ingo Molnar and Linus are advocating for verbal abuse.
It's not worth my energy, in other words.
<tomv_w> we should just forward d-bugs-rc to d-d-a. <tomv_w> just so everyone knows what to think about.
And I say that's bogus.
Go play in the traffic, kid. Remember to arrange a video...
Upstream obviously hasn't understood how distributions work and what stable releases are.
For that matter, if Debian was going to get into book burning over racist, homophobic and misogynistic writing, all those packaged versions of religious texts would presumably be the first things tossed onto the pyre.
Linux is a very very very diverse ecosystem and it grew to be such as a function of the principle of least surprise, among other things.
Another piece of diversity lost in the open source world. systemd is winning the war.
So, in Python, mutable items in default arguments are a good way to get more fun time with debugging.
I thought we had explicitly defined yield() to not do that.