Very interesting herder! It does muddy the waters a bit.
It sure does, but also makes for an interesting adventure.
Very interesting herder! It does muddy the waters a bit.
This fascinates me. It appears that the Lambsfoot went from conception to near ubiquity in the British agrarian market relatively quickly. Perhaps in less than 100 years. Maybe less?
I could be wrong, but I assume that, during the time of the Lambsfoot's spread in popularity, most farmers limited their pocket knife purchases to replacements for their worn-out knives or as the first knife for a child as they came of age to do real work on the farm. So, it's not like the new Taylor's Eye Witness catalog for 18xx showed up in the mail one day, everyone said "oh, that looks nice", and then had one in their pocket a few weeks later.
I wonder what started the trend of opting for a Lambsfoot. Were its merits recognizable to old hands when they saw it at the general store and they decided to give it a try? Was it word of mouth and evangelism from neighbors that had been early adopters? Was there a Taylor's Eye Witness salesman making the rounds extolling the new pattern? All of the above? Something else entirely?
I don't know that these questions are any more answerable than when the Lambsfoot was first created, but I'm finding them fun to ponder.
These two interpretations really captivate me, the sleekness and yet simplicity. The bolsters are particularly impressive, small and very nicely worked.
Quality copies of these as an SFO would generate adulation......
This fascinates me. It appears that the Lambsfoot went from conception to near ubiquity in the British agrarian market relatively quickly. Perhaps in less than 100 years. Maybe less?
I could be wrong, but I assume that, during the time of the Lambsfoot's spread in popularity, most farmers limited their pocket knife purchases to replacements for their worn-out knives or as the first knife for a child as they came of age to do real work on the farm. So, it's not like the new Taylor's Eye Witness catalog for 18xx showed up in the mail one day, everyone said "oh, that looks nice", and then had one in their pocket a few weeks later.
I wonder what started the trend of opting for a Lambsfoot. Were its merits recognizable to old hands when they saw it at the general store and they decided to give it a try? Was it word of mouth and evangelism from neighbors that had been early adopters? Was there a Taylor's Eye Witness salesman making the rounds extolling the new pattern? All of the above? Something else entirely?
I don't know that these questions are any more answerable than when the Lambsfoot was first created, but I'm finding them fun to ponder.
Beautiful knife, and a good weekend companion.
Good points and observations. One problem in figuring out the history or purpose with these old knives is that seldom did a manufacturer list the specific name or purpose of the knife in an old catalog. I think Jack, Cambertree, or others may have mentioned this before, but it is certainly the case. Even the big boys like Wostenholm and Joseph Rodgers were vague on descriptions and often called their knives by generic names like "two blade" or "hunting knife". It does seem that certain knives or blade types had specific tasks originally, but later were adopted to other uses and even called by other names. A good example would be pruning knives which were also later used as and called "linoleum", and "Plumbers" knives. As far as the Lambs foot model go, while it certainly appears that they were intended for trimming lambs feet originally, they were also found on Scotch Sheperds knives, Tackers knives, and Congress pattern models. I guess it's up to all of us to sort out the interesting puzzles.
It sure does, but also makes for an interesting adventure.
Jack, that Unity 'Real Lamb Foot' is one of those knives that I find just sublime.
Thanks for showing it again.
As a dyed-in-the-wool, ardent trade unionist - the Unity Co-op is one of the companies I have been fascinated to read about in your previous posts, and one of the myriad of Sheffield historical narratives I have determined to unravel further and learn more about when I visit.
I love that contoured three dimensional jigging pattern.
Greg, that was a great post, my friend, and I agree, we may not find definitive reference points to conclude our enquiries, but as Tom Waits said 'if it's worth the going, it's worth the ride.'
I think you may be right: the rise and subsequent uptake and ubiquity of the Lambsfoot (at least in the North of England) may have taken place in less than a century.
The familiarity of the ancient sheepsfoot pattern would certainly have paved the way...
One thing I have found frustrating in my efforts to understand and disentangle the threads of cutlery history (but so enjoyable to discuss with like minded friends here) is how we tend to have a 'preserved canon' of knife patterns and blade shapes in our Traditional reference sphere now.
One view I'm leaning towards, in the light of Herder's and other posts, is that in the past, the patterns we now know, were subject to much more evolution and gradual variation, based on the feedback of a whole galaxy of users throughout Britain and its' colonies.
I may be heading out on a limb here, but I can certainly imagine the following scenes, or similar ones may have taken place:
One of the working cutlers or apprentice boys coming out on the shop floor approaches the Master Cutler or Foreman and says 'the Old Man wants to see you.'
The Master Cutler gets up and disengages his trow, or leaves whatever task he may have been attending to and walks up the stairs to the Office, brushing off grinding slurry or forge-dust from his jacket. Before he knocks on the door he removes his cap, clears his throat, hawking up some clots of bloody phlegm into his handkerchief, and takes a deep breath.
The Old Man, whose family name is stamped on thousands of gross of pieces sent out weekly from His works to Africa, Australia, New Zealand and the New World looks up briefly and waves to a pile of correspondence on his mahogany desk and says 'the Australian Distributors are saying they need more of a trailing point for skinning those bloody rabbits they're plagued by on those cheap Jacks we do. Be a good fellow and see if you can make me up some new samples I can send them,'
Or he may have said 'Look, we're selling cartloads of those 294 models in East Africa at the moment with that new blade shape we thought we'd try; why don't you see if you can't fit that blade onto models 175 and 138 and we'll see how they do.'
Or - 'I saw Mr Sowerby from the Kew Botanical Gardens down at the club in London and he said all the apprentices are instructed to use a 238 model now, but the tips are breaking off. I've instructed Mr Williams to send samples of the 239 out to them. I think the stronger tip may also do well in Auckland, Sydney, New Brunswick and Fort Vancouver. Can you let the fellows know we'll be changing over to doing that model until the end of next week.'
Examining the salvaged contents of British shipwrecks from the late 19th century here, one thing I have been struck by, is how, as well as the 'tried and true' Sheffield patterns, there were also indubitably, cutlery trends and fashions as with everything else.
For example, the recovered salvage of the Loch Ard and the SS Schomberg wrecked on the West Coast of Victoria here between 1855 and 1878, definitely feature a preponderance of certain patterns like Congress, Senator and Swell-center pen knives.
I had been hesitant to post these images from the 1910 John Nowill and Sons catalogue, as they seem 'neither fish nor fowl' regarding our Sheepsfoot-Lambsfoot-Wharncliffe-Ettrick continuum, but in light of our discussions, it may be apt to show them as an example of how our current nomenclature did not apply 'back in the day', and patterns simply evolved and adapted according to user feedback and sales figures.
They certainly have the spine taper of the Lambsfoot, however they feature more of a curve to the point and less of an abrupt Lambsfoot 'beak', which I would associate more with a Wharncliffe pattern...
I'll be interested in what you all think.
In any case, I've been so enjoying this discussion, and the superb discursive posts that our Porch folk have been making, that I'm hesitant to gently steer it also to the direction that Will has implied, which is 'What GEC frames would best suited to honour the Real Lambsfoot should it be resurrected on Bill's production schedule?'
What blade shapes of the past would be most worthy of reviving in a modern Real Lambsfoot? (I know our Porch stalwarts have touched on this before, but I'm interested in what our current Guardians also may think.)
...
Good points, again :thumbup: I think its still the case that Sheffield cutlers are vague when it comes to naming patterns, and often they name them incorrectly.
...
Jack, can you please elaborate on what's "vague" or "incorrect" about using the "Senator" name for your pictured knife? I'm not exactly sure what the defining characteristics of the senator pattern are. Thanks!
Jack, can you please elaborate on what's "vague" or "incorrect" about using the "Senator" name for your pictured knife? I'm not exactly sure what the defining characteristics of the senator pattern are. Thanks!
Jack, that Unity 'Real Lamb Foot' is one of those knives that I find just sublime.
Thanks for showing it again.
As a dyed-in-the-wool, ardent trade unionist - the Unity Co-op is one of the companies I have been fascinated to read about in your previous posts, and one of the myriad of Sheffield historical narratives I have determined to unravel further and learn more about when I visit.
I love that contoured three dimensional jigging pattern.
Greg, that was a great post, my friend, and I agree, we may not find definitive reference points to conclude our enquiries, but as Tom Waits said 'if it's worth the going, it's worth the ride.'
I think you may be right: the rise and subsequent uptake and ubiquity of the Lambsfoot (at least in the North of England) may have taken place in less than a century.
The familiarity of the ancient sheepsfoot pattern would certainly have paved the way...
One thing I have found frustrating in my efforts to understand and disentangle the threads of cutlery history (but so enjoyable to discuss with like minded friends here) is how we tend to have a 'preserved canon' of knife patterns and blade shapes in our Traditional reference sphere now.
One view I'm leaning towards, in the light of Herder's and other posts, is that in the past, the patterns we now know, were subject to much more evolution and gradual variation, based on the feedback of a whole galaxy of users throughout Britain and its' colonies.
I may be heading out on a limb here, but I can certainly imagine the following scenes, or similar ones may have taken place:
One of the working cutlers or apprentice boys coming out on the shop floor approaches the Master Cutler or Foreman and says 'the Old Man wants to see you.'
The Master Cutler gets up and disengages his trow, or leaves whatever task he may have been attending to and walks up the stairs to the Office, brushing off grinding slurry or forge-dust from his jacket. Before he knocks on the door he removes his cap, clears his throat, hawking up some clots of bloody phlegm into his handkerchief, and takes a deep breath.
The Old Man, whose family name is stamped on thousands of gross of pieces sent out weekly from His works to Africa, India, Australia, New Zealand and the New World looks up briefly and waves to a pile of correspondence on his mahogany desk and says 'the Australian Distributors are saying they need more of a trailing point for skinning those bloody rabbits they're plagued by on those cheap Jacks we do. Be a good fellow and see if you can make me up some new samples I can send them,'
Or he may have said 'Look, we're selling cartloads of those 294 models in East Africa at the moment with that new blade shape we thought we'd try; why don't you see if you can't fit that blade onto models 175 and 138 and we'll see how they do.'
Or - 'I saw Mr Sowerby from the Kew Botanical Gardens down at the club in London and he said all the apprentices are instructed to use a 238 model now, but the tips are breaking off. I've instructed Mr Williams to send samples of the 239 out to them. I think the stronger tip may also do well in Auckland, Sydney, New Brunswick and Fort Vancouver. Can you let the fellows know we'll be changing over to doing that model until the end of next week.'
Examining the salvaged contents of British shipwrecks from the late 19th century here, one thing I have been struck by, is how, as well as the 'tried and true' Sheffield patterns, there were also indubitably, cutlery trends and fashions as with everything else.
For example, the recovered salvage of the Loch Ard and the SS Schomberg wrecked on the West Coast of Victoria here between 1855 and 1878, definitely feature a preponderance of certain patterns like Congress, Senator and Swell-center pen knives.
I had been hesitant to post these images from the 1910 John Nowill and Sons catalogue, as they seem 'neither fish nor fowl' regarding our Sheepsfoot-Lambsfoot-Wharncliffe-Ettrick continuum, but in light of our discussions, it may be apt to show them as an example of how our current nomenclature did not apply 'back in the day', and patterns simply evolved and adapted according to user feedback and sales figures.
They certainly have the spine taper of the Lambsfoot, however they feature more of a curve to the point and less of an abrupt Lambsfoot 'beak', which I would associate more with a Wharncliffe pattern...
I'll be interested in what you all think.
In any case, I've been so enjoying this discussion, and the superb discursive posts that our Porch folk have been making, that I'm hesitant to gently steer it also to the direction that Will has implied, which is 'What GEC frames would be best suited to honour the Real Lambsfoot should it be resurrected on Bill's production schedule?'
What blade shapes of the past would be most worthy of reviving in a modern Real Lambsfoot? (I know our Porch stalwarts have touched on this before, but I'm interested in what our current Guardians also may think.)
Nice to see this thread get so busy
Yes, it's quite incredible isn't it? From the numerous worn and heavily worn examples I find, these knives were clearly used hard too. One might think that someone who expected to use a knife that hard might purchase a Sheepsfoot over a Lambsfoot, knowing that it would soon end up as a Lambsfoot, (and eventually a spike). Yet, the Lambsfoot seems to have been quickly taken up by those who really would use a knife. In terms of the knives I find on market stalls, there is a split between penknives and Lambsfoot patterns, the condition of the penknives varies, but they are sometimes unused, and are generally in good condition. The Lambsfoot knives, however, have often seen considerable use, and I find far more of them than any other working pattern. I would think that I find at least five Lambsfoot knives to every Sheepsfoot.
Thank you my friend :thumbup:
Good points, again :thumbup: I think its still the case that Sheffield cutlers are vague when it comes to naming patterns, and often they name them incorrectly.
Definitely! :thumbup:
Thanks Chin, I collect the Unity items for the same reason. Apparently the mark was used by several co-operative ventures. Sheffield certainly has some interesting trade union history, and I'll look forward to talking more about it with you :thumbup:
I loved your sketch! It may not be far from the truth though, and there was certainly a long period when patterns were subject to a good deal of experimentation and change. Your perspective in terms of the wrecked ships is fascinating, and certainly knives were subject to fashion as you say. It is obvious that the Sheffield cutlers specifically named and marketed patterns at the the US market, and the same was also the case with Australia. I guess that they would prefer to sell an expensive Senator or Congress to a relatively affluent individual than a lowly Lambsfoot or Sheepsfoot to a farmer, particularly since the cost of export would be much the same. The two market were obviously different though, and I'm sure they sold far more inexpensive Bunny Knives in Australia than they did pearl-handled Lobsters. I think you are right to associate those two knives with the Wharncliffe pattern, it is not just the blade shape, but the frame that makes them thus. The one on the left is a Wharncliffe Knife, and the one on the right is certainly a variant I think :thumbup:
Great discussion folks, really enjoying it :thumbup:
The Senator is an Equal-end Penknife pattern GT. Unaware of this, when Wright's were looking for a name for their fancy Lambsfoot, they called it a Senator, at the suggestion of one of their retailers, thinking it sounded like a good name.
...
One thing I have found frustrating in my efforts to understand and disentangle the threads of cutlery history (but so enjoyable to discuss with like minded friends here) is how we tend to have a 'preserved canon' of knife patterns and blade shapes in our Traditional reference sphere now.
One view I'm leaning towards, in the light of Herder's and other posts, is that in the past, the patterns we now know, were subject to much more evolution and gradual variation, based on the feedback of a whole galaxy of users throughout Britain and its' colonies.
I may be heading out on a limb here, but I can certainly imagine the following scenes, or similar ones may have taken place:
One of the working cutlers or apprentice boys coming out on the shop floor approaches the Master Cutler or Foreman and says 'the Old Man wants to see you.'
...
Jack, I've come across another catalog cut which appears quite revealing. This is a Wostenholm catalog from c. 1950 which shows two Lamb foot models together except the top one is stamped "Lamb Foot" while the bottom knife is stamped "Real Lamb Foot Knife". I take this to mean that Wostenholm is acknowledging that some Lamb Foot blades had slowly evolved and changed over time. But, by showing two slightly different models, they could offer and label one with a true and accurate Lamb Foot shaped blade.
Thanks for the explanation/elaboration, Jack. :thumbup: Was it a question of wanting to have a more specific designation for a subset of a larger category? Aren't camp/scout knives, canoes, and the aforementioned Senator all examples of equal-end penknives? Yet they are quite different patterns, and I can understand how both manufacturers and consumers might appreciate different names to help distinguish among them.
The recent discussion has me wanting to learn more about the history of the Sheffield cutlery industry. Any book recommendations?
You must be the most well-read denizen of these here parts, Jack!
But I am not sure I'd recognize you without that Buffalo!!