Patriot II: Now USDOJ wants to secretly detain citizens!
Feb 17, 2003, 12:34 pm
#1
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Patriot II: Now USDOJ wants to secretly detain citizens!
The legislation, nicknamed Patriot II, would broadly expand the government's surveillance and detention powers. Among other measures, it calls for the creation of a terrorist DNA database and allows the attorney general to revoke citizenship of those who provide "material support" to terrorist groups.
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,57636,00.html
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,57636,00.html
Feb 17, 2003, 3:59 pm
#2
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I think this has been killed by the U.S. Congress, but it is scary nonetheless.
What did Jefferson say about this kind of business? Something like 'when a government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it.'
And yes, I know the Declaration of Independence is not a legal, governing document of the United States.
What did Jefferson say about this kind of business? Something like 'when a government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it.'
And yes, I know the Declaration of Independence is not a legal, governing document of the United States.
Feb 17, 2003, 4:21 pm
#3
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While I am very upset at the lack of security at our airports,I am very supportive of this legislation.Peole take advantage of their citizenship to harm our interests.They should be detained without counsel.There must be a system of checks and limited reimbursement if the re was a complete error.And they should deport the entire family,will get family members a little more active in assisting our war on terrorism.
Feb 17, 2003, 4:24 pm
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"Limited reimbursement if there was a complete error"? You're putting us on, right? This is comedy?
Bruce
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Feb 17, 2003, 6:40 pm
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We should just hang them to be sure that they won't try to sneak back and seek a better life in our country again. And kill their families too.
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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by argent00:
While I am very upset at the lack of security at our airports,I am very supportive of this legislation.Peole take advantage of their citizenship to harm our interests.They should be detained without counsel.There must be a system of checks and limited reimbursement if the re was a complete error.And they should deport the entire family,will get family members a little more active in assisting our war on terrorism.</font>
While I am very upset at the lack of security at our airports,I am very supportive of this legislation.Peole take advantage of their citizenship to harm our interests.They should be detained without counsel.There must be a system of checks and limited reimbursement if the re was a complete error.And they should deport the entire family,will get family members a little more active in assisting our war on terrorism.</font>
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"Give me Liberty or give me Death." - Patrick Henry
Feb 17, 2003, 8:20 pm
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by argent00:
While I am very upset at the lack of security at our airports,I am very supportive of this legislation.Peole take advantage of their citizenship to harm our interests.They should be detained without counsel.There must be a system of checks and limited reimbursement if the re was a complete error.And they should deport the entire family,will get family members a little more active in assisting our war on terrorism.</font>
While I am very upset at the lack of security at our airports,I am very supportive of this legislation.Peole take advantage of their citizenship to harm our interests.They should be detained without counsel.There must be a system of checks and limited reimbursement if the re was a complete error.And they should deport the entire family,will get family members a little more active in assisting our war on terrorism.</font>
Feb 17, 2003, 8:34 pm
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by argent00:
Peole take advantage of their citizenship to harm our interests.They should be detained without counsel.There must be a system of checks and limited reimbursement if the re was a complete error.And they should deport the entire family,will get family members a little more active in assisting our war on terrorism.</font>
Peole take advantage of their citizenship to harm our interests.They should be detained without counsel.There must be a system of checks and limited reimbursement if the re was a complete error.And they should deport the entire family,will get family members a little more active in assisting our war on terrorism.</font>
Haven't read much in the way of Hobbes, Locke and Jefferson, have you? You know, the "endowed with rights by their creator" stuff?
Feb 17, 2003, 8:40 pm
#8
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Wouldn't this thread be better served by commenting on the article, rather than the posters?
As is usual with such matters, our checks and balances kept overreaching legislation from ever getting into law. This is what happens every time, in the fullness of time, becuase we live under the best system ever yet conceived for governing man.
Chicken Little was forced to retuurn to her hutch; the sky remains intact.
As is usual with such matters, our checks and balances kept overreaching legislation from ever getting into law. This is what happens every time, in the fullness of time, becuase we live under the best system ever yet conceived for governing man.
Chicken Little was forced to retuurn to her hutch; the sky remains intact.
Feb 17, 2003, 10:59 pm
#9
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Brian:
Wouldn't this thread be better served by commenting on the article, rather than the posters? </font>
Wouldn't this thread be better served by commenting on the article, rather than the posters? </font>
Feb 18, 2003, 6:03 am
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by argent00:
While I am very upset at the lack of security at our airports,I am very supportive of this legislation.Peole take advantage of their citizenship to harm our interests.They should be detained without counsel.There must be a system of checks and limited reimbursement if the re was a complete error.And they should deport the entire family,will get family members a little more active in assisting our war on terrorism.</font>
While I am very upset at the lack of security at our airports,I am very supportive of this legislation.Peole take advantage of their citizenship to harm our interests.They should be detained without counsel.There must be a system of checks and limited reimbursement if the re was a complete error.And they should deport the entire family,will get family members a little more active in assisting our war on terrorism.</font>
Feb 18, 2003, 6:15 am
#11
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Brian:
Wouldn't this thread be better served by commenting on the article, rather than the posters?
As is usual with such matters, our checks and balances kept overreaching legislation from ever getting into law. This is what happens every time, in the fullness of time, becuase we live under the best system ever yet conceived for governing man.
Chicken Little was forced to retuurn to her hutch; the sky remains intact. </font>
Wouldn't this thread be better served by commenting on the article, rather than the posters?
As is usual with such matters, our checks and balances kept overreaching legislation from ever getting into law. This is what happens every time, in the fullness of time, becuase we live under the best system ever yet conceived for governing man.
Chicken Little was forced to retuurn to her hutch; the sky remains intact. </font>
Read: not insult the poster, but certainly challenge their views.
My personal feeling is that the post in question is of an extremist enough opinion that I would have a hard time taking it seriously.
Feb 18, 2003, 8:50 am
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by dctorres:
Yes, it would, but when a poster puts forth an idea that is way out there... it seems perfectly acceptable to call the poster on it.
Read: not insult the poster, but certainly challenge their views.
My personal feeling is that the post in question is of an extremist enough opinion that I would have a hard time taking it seriously.</font>
Yes, it would, but when a poster puts forth an idea that is way out there... it seems perfectly acceptable to call the poster on it.
Read: not insult the poster, but certainly challenge their views.
My personal feeling is that the post in question is of an extremist enough opinion that I would have a hard time taking it seriously.</font>
And Ender, I have an email address posted, so if you find me uncivil, I welcome your comments and will give them their due.
Feb 18, 2003, 8:53 am
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Brian:
Then don't. But namecalling of anyone, for any opinion, represents a breakdown of civility. It also reflects far more on the poster than who it is posted against.
And Ender, I have an email address posted, so if you find me uncivil, I welcome your comments and will give them their due. </font>
Then don't. But namecalling of anyone, for any opinion, represents a breakdown of civility. It also reflects far more on the poster than who it is posted against.
And Ender, I have an email address posted, so if you find me uncivil, I welcome your comments and will give them their due. </font>
You realize that we are in agreement on this issue, no?
However, I don't think there has been any namecalling in this thread.
Back on topic, I think that as chilling as this plan may seem to anyone, I agree that it will be shot down in Congress. Either that or the public outcry will shout it down.
[Edited to get back on topic]
[This message has been edited by dctorres (edited 02-18-2003).]
Feb 18, 2003, 9:21 am
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<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by mspman:
You cannot be serious.</font>
You cannot be serious.</font>
Feb 18, 2003, 12:31 pm
#15
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Also, the Declaration of Independence may not formally be a governing document of the United States, but judges love to quote from it (for good reason), and there have been, and will continue to be, judicial decisions based on the idea that the opposite decision would offend the principles of the Declaration.
We do have, even now, an American Citizen in military custody, (who was arrested in the United States) being denied access to counsel, because the Attorney General has unilaterally declared him to be an "enemy combatant". So far, two courts have permitted this nonsense, to our eternal shame.
We do have, even now, an American Citizen in military custody, (who was arrested in the United States) being denied access to counsel, because the Attorney General has unilaterally declared him to be an "enemy combatant". So far, two courts have permitted this nonsense, to our eternal shame.