Who/whom: General question, discussion and pragmatic advice :)

C

Christhiane

Senior Member
English
I wish to master the correct use of 'whom,' but even though my dictionary (Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary) has a grammar point on this, I am still at loss. The problem is that I am not overly good with grammatical terms, so I guess that's what hinders me from grasping it. I have a theory, though, so below is what I think might be right.

The word 'who' is described as a word that is:
1. Used in questions to ask about the name, identity or function of one or more people.
Who is that woman?
2. Used to show which person or people you mean.
The people who called yesterday want to buy the house.
3. Used to give more information about sb.
Mrs. Smith, who has a lot of teaching experience at junior level, will be joining the school in September.

The dictionary says further that whom can be can be used instead if 'who' as the object if a verb or preposition.

If I go back to the examples/explanations of 'who' and try to replace it with 'whom.'
1. I know can not change 'who' with 'whom.'
2. I am unsure of whether or not I can, is 'the people whom called yesterday want to buy the house' correct? It doesn't sound good to me.
3. I think that I can say 'Mrs. Smith, whom has a lot of teaching experience at juniour level...' Is that right? If this is the only one that's correct, is it because 'whom' can only be used when offering extra information about someone?

Additionally, is it so that I always can write 'to whom,' 'from whom,' 'with whom' etc.?

_________

I tried my best to make it as lucid as possible, but I know I sometimes fail on that point.
 
    • Hello Christhiane

    It's not helpful to try to apply the rules for 'whom' to your example sentences, because 'the people' and 'Mrs Smith' are not the object of the verb here - they're the subject.

    Ask yourself: Who is doing the verb action? I've put the subject and the verb in bold so that hopefully you can see the connection.

    a) The people who called yesterday ...

    'The people' are the ones performing the action of the verb. So, they're the subject of the sentence. Use 'who' to define them.

    b) Mrs. Smith, who has a lot of teaching experience ...

    Mrs. Smith is the one doing the verb, so she's the subject of this sentence. Use 'who' to give extra information about her.

    Now, let's take some new sentences in which someone else is doing the verb action. Here, you can use 'whom':

    c) The people (whom) I met yesterday ...

    d) Mrs. Smith, whom we have known for many years ...

    Note that in c, 'whom' is optional. However, when you're using it to give extra information, as in d, you must include it.

    'To whom,' 'from whom,' 'with whom' etc are all absolutely fine.

    Please let me know if this still isn't clear :)
     
    Hello, E-J. I didn't post this thread, but I read your response and I think your explanations are very clear. They helped me. Best whishes. Mr Bones.
     
    Thank you, E-J. If I got you right one could say that one can only use 'whom' when you are refering to someone else than the person who performed the action?
     
    Christhiane said:
    Thank you, E-J. If I got you right one could say that one can only use 'whom' when you are referring to someone other than the person who performed the action?
    Click to expand...
    Who, whom (and whose) are relative pronouns referring to a person or persons.
    The subjective relative pronoun is who, the objective whom.

    So, when you are referring to the person who performed the action, you are referring to the subject - and use who.
    When you are referring to the person on whom the action was performed, you are referring to the object - and use whom.

    This summary may be over-simplistic, or indeed wrong. If so, I will be corrected in due course:)
     
    To whom am I addressing this note? Ah, to Christiane, who has asked a very good question.

    A favorite grammar problem solver says it better than I can, so here is its explanation:

    Use who as the subject of a verb, or as a predicate pronoun. Use whom as the object of a verb or preposition. One final word: unless you are reasonably certain that whom is required, use who. You'll be right much more than half of the time,
    Click to expand...
    Shaw, Harry. Dictionary of problem words and expressions, rev. edition, McGraw-Hill, 1987, ISBN 0-07-056517-1

    Mr. Shaw tells us that, "No situation in English speech and writing causes more difficulty for more persons than choosing between..." these two words.

    regards,
    Cuchuflete
     
    I love that quote - especially the wise guidance for the unsure:
    unless you are reasonably certain that whom is required, use who. You'll be right much more than half of the time,
    Click to expand...
    What's more, in many situations:
    saying who instead of whom will pass without notice;
    saying whom instead of who will stick out like a sore thumb;
    saying whom at all will stick out like a sore thumb.

    I'm not suggesting we don't try to get it right - just moaning that the world conspires to encourage us not to bother:mad:
     
    Taking up again 'to whom', 'from whom', and 'with whom', what´s your point of view concerning questions in which the preposition may o may not appear at the end of the sentence?

    EX: Who did you go to the party with?

    I´ve been taught to put it at the end, even my grammar book (Cambridge U. P.) says so. However, I´ve met several people claiming this is wrong, especially North Americans.

    Does it have something to do with Amr./Brit. English?
    I don´t still have it clear.

    Magg
     
    Christhiane said:
    Thank you, E-J. If I got you right one could say that one can only use 'whom' when you are refering to someone else than the person who performed the action?
    Click to expand...

    Yes, that's a good summary :)

    mandarina_82 said:
    i think in english u can't say "of who" or "who...of" it must always be "of whom"

    maybe it is a silly question
    Click to expand...

    It's not a silly question at all. In fact, 'of who' and 'to who' sound rather strange - you should always use 'of whom' or 'to whom'. If you're speaking colloquially and don't want to be particularly formal, use 'who' (or nothing) and put the preposition at the end of the sentence. For example:

    Formal: This is the lady to whom I spoke.
    Informal: This is the lady (who) I spoke to.

    You may hear some people suggest that ending a sentence with a preposition is wrong, but it's not - it is natural, colloquial English.

    In general, the suggestion to opt for 'who' if you're not sure is good advice, since in spoken English, as panjandrum points out, most of us use 'who' instead of 'whom' anyway!
     
    E-J said:
    Hello Magg - we must have cross-posted as I've only just seen your post. Looks like I anticipated your question :)
    Click to expand...

    Ja,Ja, it´s true :)

    Thanks so much.
    I still have in mind an American friend of mine who insistently said to me: NEVER put the preposition at the end, it´s wrong grammar.

    Magg
     
    Yes, Magg, I've heard people say this too, and you're right that more often they're North Americans. Over here in the UK the grammar purists' objection to this particular aspect of English usage hasn't been quite so forceful since Winston Churchill gave his famous response to someone's criticism that he had ended a sentence with a preposition:

    "This is the sort of English up with which I will not put!" :)

    By bunching the prepositions together in the 'correct' way, he produced a sentence which sounds ridiculously clumsy and over-formal.
     
    E-J said:
    In general, the suggestion to opt for 'who' if you're not sure is good advice, since in spoken English, as panjandrum points out, most of us use 'who' instead of 'whom' anyway!
    Click to expand...
    Do remember that I was quoting Cuchuflete who was quoting someone else:D

    Please don't take this piece of pragmatic advice as a free pass through the who/whom class. What's more, I am quite sure that the "us" who use these forums either use who/whom correctly already or want to learn how to.


    On a totally different topic: for a long, complex, possibly enjoyable, and perhaps by some miracle helpful - discussion on prepositions CLICK HERE.

    ...Oh yes, and be careful not to stray too far from the topic of the thread. We may not have been noticed this time:cool:
     
    Mod note: Mahau's thread has been merged with an earlier thread.

    Hello everybody,

    I am a bit confused about in/direct object in questions. Here is an example:
    "(From) whom did you borrow this book?"
    Can I write "from" at the end of this sentence?

    But in informal English is it also possible:
    "Who did borrow this book from?"?
     
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    I suspect that the overwhelming majority of native English speakers would unselfconsciously say "Who did borrow this book from?"; meanwhile the educated ones would feel slightly guilty as they said it because we were taught that "From whom did you borrow this book?" is the preferred construction in formal English.

    If you type "    preposition at end" or "who or whom" into the search box at the top of this page, you will find numerous other threads dealing with these topics. I would add that even educated speakers are often uncertain whether they should use "who" or "whom", and it is my opinion that, for better or for worse, this distinction will eventually die out.
     
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    I agree with DocPenro. "Who did you borrow it from" is what most people would say in all but the most formal settings. It is also what most people would write informally. "Whom did you borrow it from" is also correct, although to some the isolated "whom" at the beginning of the sentence - so far from the preposition - sounds odd.
     
    But in informal English is it also possible:
    "Who did borrow this book from?"

    No, this is WRONG. There is a pronoun missing, even in informal terms we need to see a YOU in there. Was it just a mistake?
     
    Sorry, I typed it wrong.


    suzi br said:
    But in informal English is it also possible:
    "Who did borrow this book from?"

    No, this is WRONG. There is a pronoun missing, even in informal terms we need to see a YOU in there. Was it just a mistake?
    Click to expand...
     
    mahau said:
    Thanks a lot! I am a beginner and I prefer formal English.
    Click to expand...
    But it would be wrong to describe "who did you borrow this book from?" as being informal. It is now the normal way of writing or speaking, at least in Britain. "From whom did you borrow this book?" is now close to obsolete for most English speakers. I would never say it, and I doubt I would ever write it, even though I routinely use whom in my written English.
     
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