Debian-Ubuntu relationship: bits from UDS
From: | Stefano Zacchiroli <leader-AT-debian.org> | |
To: | debian-project-AT-lists.debian.org | |
Subject: | Debian-Ubuntu relationship: bits from UDS | |
Date: | Sun, 16 May 2010 17:36:32 +0200 |
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 12:45:54PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: > So, I'm now back and with some feedback to share. I'll first post (in > this mail) a summary of the replies I got to this "poll" and later on a > more general summary of what I did at UDS. Here we go. I had mainly 3 reasons to attend UDS: 1) present in the invited talk the Debian feelings about the current state of the Debian-Ubuntu relationship (i.e. the poll outcome) 2) attend the UDS "session" (the equivalent of our "BoF" at DebConf) about the "health check" of the Ubuntu-Debian relationship from the PoV of Ubuntu, and give my input there 3) advance some specific requests to the Canonical management, in accordance to the poll outcome. Let's see them one by one. Talk ==== The slides are at <http://upsilon.cc/~zack/stuff/debian-uds-m.pdf>. The talk was a plenary one, not in parallel with other sessions, but it was a short one. I believe there should be a video available (for full disclosure on what I said there), but I've no idea where :), maybe some dual Ubuntu/Debian dev on this list can post a link ... My goals with the talk were to explain: - the relationship of Debian and Ubuntu (technical and historical) - why I think it's in the mutual interest of both distros to (at least try to) collaborate - what is the current state of the collaboration (i.e. a representative sampling of the "success stories" I got from the poll) - what does not work in the collaboration (i.e. the "fail" of the poll) Note that (as scottk and lucas made me realize, thanks!), the audience of UDS is not made entirely of geeks or free software zealots, there are also employees which do not necessarily share our values, so---in the talk---I explained reason for collaboration also according to pragmatism and ease of work flow, rather than only as: "it is the right thing to do for free software" (but the argument is there too). Feedback -------- I had some very good returns from attendees. To my surprise, I realized that among Ubuntu developers there are quite some people which share our values and that acknowledge that Ubuntu sometimes fails at them. Those people are interested in working with Debian directly, but simply didn't realize that we do welcome their contributions (the culture of "work in Debian 1st"), that they can join our teams, or that things like DM to maintain their packages exist in the first place. That alone, makes me happy about having attended: Ubuntu currently reaches out a pool of people that includes some of the DDs of the future (as recent experience shows), the sooner we let them know us and our values, the better. Debian-Ubuntu relationship session ================================== The session was attended by a mixed public including, most notably: the Ubuntu community manager (Jono Bacon) and the responsible of relationship with upstream (Jorge Castro), several DDs (myself, vorlon, scottk, jelmer, lucas, ... and I'm surely forgetting others), and several Ubuntu devs working in mixed Debian/Ubuntu teams. In the session, I've argued that: - We generally welcome forwarding of bugs to the Debian BTS *after suitable triaging*: that is the key of a sane upstream/downstream relationship that we are supposed to implement with Debian upstreams and that we should expect from our downstream. - We welcome packaging of new software (which are not Ubuntu-specific) directly in Debian, that will then flow in Ubuntu via sync. Some people advanced complains of "bad timing" to upload to Debian (e.g. when Debian is in freeze) and we observed that that is no excuse, as they can still upload to experimental. - We welcome discussion of "big" changes in Debian first. That would reduce the incidence of situations in which we feel people with double hats favor Ubuntu over Debian. Also it will give a discussion venue that we can trust more for the soundness of technical decisions (even because it's larger). Then we discussed various technical issues that can enable, opt-in, DDs which are interested in following their packages in Ubuntu to actually do that. From that we obtained a nice TODO list for Launchpad that has been submitted to Jorge Castro. Derivatives front desk: call for volunteers ------------------------------------------- The main request I got back during that session is to have a Debian contact point for Ubuntu people willing to help out. More generally, I think it makes sense to have a contact point for derivatives which have packaging work to offer to Debian and which need directions. So, I'm looking for volunteers willing to listen to such a contact point and to drive requests to the most appropriate team, process, procedure, etc. Of course, if there will be no volunteer, we will simply not set it up. People in Debian coming from Ubuntu would be a good start, but more generally Debian people coming from whatever derivative distributions will be perfect candidates for the job. If you're interested in helping out with this, please contact <leader@debian.org>. Requests ======== Finally, I met with various people of Canonical management (Mark Shuttleworth, Jono Bacon, Jorge Castro, and Matt Zimmerman---at different times) to advance a couple of requests. From a community point of view, I've asked to be more clear on the relationship of Debian and Ubuntu: we need to have Ubuntu people know that we exist in the first place and what we prefer in the interaction with us. I also asked to have more (assuming there is any now) "peer pressure" in the Ubuntu community to push changes back to Debian. Then, I explained our feelings that not enough credit is given to Debian, and asked that Debian have a more prominent role in the Ubuntu web presence. I plan to assess in the next months what happened to the above requests. Cheers. PS I'll cross-reference this post and the former from the next "Bits from the DPL". That way it's not (too) annoying for people that don't care about Ubuntu, but it will still have a good chance to be noticed by people which do. -- Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7 zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/ Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..| . |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie sempre uno zaino ...........| ..: |.... Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime
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