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AT&T, Apple Bicker Over Wireless Congestion
Apple execs 'fumed' about limited backhaul investment

AT&T has already likely put their chance of an iPhone exclusivity extension at risk with their recent inability to support MMS support and tethering, made possible with the iPhone 3.0 software update. 29 global carriers not named AT&T had MMS ready to go at launch, and 22 of Apple's phone company partners not named AT&T already support tethering. An anonymous inside source this week proclaims to Business Week that Apple and AT&T have had internal fisticuffs over AT&T's wireless network congestion issues, and AT&T's upgrade plans:

quote:
The executive says some Apple staffers fumed last year when AT&T told them of its plans to hype cell tower upgrades without investing in backhaul capacity. The concern was that AT&T's improvements might make it appear people were getting a strong signal on the phone, though the lack of backhaul pipes might still interfere with their phone calls or Web surfing. Apple was "dumbstruck," the person says. "For 50% of the iPhone customers, there would be no benefit."
AT&T says they've already started upgrading towers to support HSPA+ speeds up to 7.2Mbps downstream, but that's not of much use if your 3G or earlier iPhone doesn't support those standards -- or the company's backhaul links remain congested. While upgrading backhaul and tower capacity isn't cheap, AT&T isn't exactly poor, either.

Including both SMS and Internet access, the carrier not only saw lower turnover, but a 37.2 percent increase in wireless data revenues during the second quarter. AT&T's net income did drop from $3.8 billion to $3.2 billion, though that was largely due to landline defections, and money owed Apple they'll make up on long-term customer contracts. Still, investors want AT&T to ditch the $30 unlimited data plan and start imposing metered billing.

During these discussions, AT&T CEO Randall Stephenson seems to have been under the mistaken impression that network reliability -- not the phone itself -- is responsible for AT&T's low wireless customer defection rate. Should AT&T fail to secure an extension for the iPhone and fail to get capacity and reliability issues in hand, Stephenson's going to have a particularly nasty wake up call when customers begin defecting en masse.

Now in AT&T's defense, the carrier insists to us they're busy upgrading towers and backhaul connectivity. The company tells us they're doubling the wireless spectrum dedicated to 3G in most of the company's metropolitan markets, while adding thousands of new cell site backhaul connections. AT&T says they're busy deploying about 2,100 new cell sites and 100,000 new backhaul links (up from a planned 55,000) during 2009.
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baineschile
2600 ways to live
Premium Member
join:2008-05-10
Sterling Heights, MI

baineschile

Premium Member

Apple...

Come to verizon...

Robert
Premium Member
join:2001-08-25
Miami, FL

Robert

Premium Member

Re: Apple...

said by baineschile:

Come to verizon...
Except that they tried, initially, and Verizon showed them the door.

I'm sure that doesn't sit well with Apple.

FFH5
Premium Member
join:2002-03-03
Tavistock NJ

FFH5 to baineschile

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to baineschile
said by baineschile:

Come to verizon...
Much easier to go to T-Mobile since the iPhone woudn't need hardware changes.

N3OGH
Yo Soy Col. "Bat" Guano
Premium Member
join:2003-11-11
Philly burbs

1 recommendation

N3OGH

Premium Member

Re: Apple...

I've said this here before. The CDMA iPhone all ready exists.

If Jobs went to Verizon first, then you know there was an initial CDMA version of the iPhone.

Love 'em or hate 'em, Apple is a company that has vision, and almost never fails to see the big picture. Every time the GSM iPhone has been updated, I guarantee a CDMA version was developed along the way. I have no doubt that the current incarnation of the iPhone has all ready been subjected to CDMA testing and is a finished product.

Verizon told Apple to take a hike because Apple wanted such a big piece of the pie. The iPhone, while still a phenomenal product simply does not have the exclusivity it once had. Products like the Pre and the Storm are direct and viable competitors.

Apple is pissed at Apple for not investing in back haul capacity. Apple all ready got their POUNDS of flesh from AT&T.

AT&T's exclusive contract for the iPhone ends in 2010. Apple will provide the CDMA iPhone through Verizon and maybe even Sprint some time next year.

Apple will get less of AT&T's pie due to the end of the exclusivity, and Verizon will get the deal they originally wanted from Apple.

Apple knows they've reached market saturation keeping AT&T as the exclusive carrier. To sell more iPhones, they need to branch out.
antidelldude
join:2003-12-22
Beverly Hills, CA

antidelldude

Member

Re: Apple...

Very Well Put. I can't believe so many people don't believe us.

en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA

en102 to N3OGH

Member

to N3OGH
Difference between 'development' and manufacturing is HUGE.

I don't doubt that a prototype CDMA existed.
Manufacturing, licensing, etc. costs are what kept iPhone GSM based.
89% of the world is GSM based (and growing) vs 9% CDMA (and not growing)

Back at the time of the original iPhone, it was probably around 75% GSM based, 22% CDMA based.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

openbox9

Premium Member

Re: Apple...

I doubt the manufacturing hurdle is too great for Apple to easily overcome. Manufacturing costs may rise a little to sustain two product lines, but given Apple's margins, I don't think it's too much to absorb.

SHABAZZ
join:2008-07-13
Seattle, WA

SHABAZZ to en102

Member

to en102
It’s no where near a 89 to 9 split. Where did you get those numbers?
pika2000
join:2005-10-13
Seattle, WA

pika2000 to N3OGH

Member

to N3OGH
The iPhone is not US only product. Apple is looking at a worldwide market, and most of the world use GSM. Apple might go Verizon when they moved to LTE though, but definitely not CDMA.

SHABAZZ
join:2008-07-13
Seattle, WA

SHABAZZ

Member

Re: Apple...

America is a long way from a nation wide LTE network, it’s going to be 2014 before we even have spotty coverage and 2020 before that network replaces GSM completely. Apple is going to have to eat higher manufacturing cost to gain market share. There is close to 150 million CDMA users in the US alone and they’re not going away anytime soon.

Gbcue
Premium Member
join:2001-09-30
Santa Rosa, CA

Gbcue

Premium Member

Re: Apple...

said by SHABAZZ:

America is a long way from a nation wide LTE network, it’s going to be 2014 before we even have spotty coverage and 2020 before that network replaces GSM completely. Apple is going to have to eat higher manufacturing cost to gain market share. There is close to 150 million CDMA users in the US alone and they’re not going away anytime soon.
Really, half the entire population of the US?

Verizon (87.7m subs). Sprint (48.8). 136.5m, not even close to 150m subs.

fifty nine
join:2002-09-25
Sussex, NJ

fifty nine

Member

Re: Apple...

said by Gbcue:

said by SHABAZZ:

America is a long way from a nation wide LTE network, it’s going to be 2014 before we even have spotty coverage and 2020 before that network replaces GSM completely. Apple is going to have to eat higher manufacturing cost to gain market share. There is close to 150 million CDMA users in the US alone and they’re not going away anytime soon.
Really, half the entire population of the US?

Verizon (87.7m subs). Sprint (48.8). 136.5m, not even close to 150m subs.
136.5m is only 13.5 million away from 150m.
Samsonian
join:2007-06-15

1 recommendation

Samsonian

Member

Re: Apple...

Throw in MetroPCS, Cricket/Leap, and all the other small, regional, and/or rural CDMA operators.

You get the remainder pretty easily.

SHABAZZ
join:2008-07-13
Seattle, WA

SHABAZZ to Gbcue

Member

to Gbcue
Yep, there seems to be around one mobile device for every individual in America. The thing that inflates this number is the fact that they’re a lot of people with more than one phone. My job provides me with a phone and I have one myself as well. There are a lot of people in that same boat. And they’re more than two CDMA carriers in the US. Cricket, MetroPCS, Tracfone, and US Cellular all come to mind. America doesn’t always follow Europe’s lead. We tend to let the consumers decide what to go with. And on a side note new wireless growth is going to come from Africa, China and India in the future because the US and Europe is so saturated already.
fiberguy2
My views are my own.
Premium Member
join:2005-05-20

fiberguy2 to Gbcue

Premium Member

to Gbcue
Ummm... really? yes.. your thinking is skewed when it comes to numbers of lines vs. population. I'm one person and I have a sprint phone and an iPhone. Someone in my home has a Sprint phone AND a Sprint phone.. his Comcast line is ran by Sprint as well. His boss carries two company phones AND a personal phone..

Its NOT uncommon for someone to have more than one phone in their hand be it by choice OR by reason of employment.

... care to do your math again?

bobgwen
join:2001-07-07
Bartow, FL

bobgwen to pika2000

Member

to pika2000
said by pika2000:

The iPhone is not US only product. Apple is looking at a worldwide market, and most of the world use GSM. Apple might go Verizon when they moved to LTE though, but definitely not CDMA.
It is my understanding that T-mobile in Germany was the iPhone distributer exclusively. With these problems with at&t and the iPhone here, I wonder how T-Mobile is making out over there with the iPhone?

tiger72
SexaT duorP
Premium Member
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO

tiger72

Premium Member

Re: Apple...

their network isn't having the issues that ATT is having. Of course, i've seen reports that they're not making much money off the iPhone either.
fiberguy2
My views are my own.
Premium Member
join:2005-05-20

fiberguy2 to pika2000

Premium Member

to pika2000
said by pika2000:

The iPhone is not US only product. Apple is looking at a worldwide market, and most of the world use GSM. Apple might go Verizon when they moved to LTE though, but definitely not CDMA.
What are you talking about? Apple had job postings for DCMA developers for the iPhone sometime late last year..

apple, if you know much about them, doesn't like to air their business too loudly - for a reason.

The CMDA market, in this country, where they can actually make some money on the phone, is not small potatoes. Even Verizon, moving to LTE, will not see a sharp drop in their current CDMA customers for up to 2 years. 2 years is the average life of a contract. In two years time, you're going to still make millions on iPhones in a CDMA environment. Sprint would LIKELY take on to the iPhone as well knowing damn well it would stop customer bleed as well as there are customers leaving simply for the iPhone and not other reasons.

I don't pretend, like many do here, that I know all the facts.. reason being is that no one really knows the facts that lie ahead.. the point is, many people's assertions of "knowing" is driven largely by persona hatred of one company to another.

The bottom line is, it's all about the numbers.. and as far as I see it, the numbers (in addition to the news of AT&T not playing to apple's standards - which we know are high) is what WILL ultimately drive the iPhone to the CDMA markets.

While GSM is in fact used by more than none world wide, apple still is a domestic company and makes a crap load of money at home.

And to who ever said that production costs would be high to run both lines doesn't know anything about production costs... chips are made and cramped into the little shell of the phone. It won't make the cost "rise" as was stated..
jdb8167
join:2001-07-08
Maynard, MA

jdb8167 to N3OGH

Member

to N3OGH
There are problems with CDMA/EVDO though. The big one is that you can't use the data network and voice at the same time. This is a limitation that does not affect AT&T and their 3G network.
jdjbuffalo
join:2004-01-17
Denver, CO

jdjbuffalo

Member

Re: Apple...

They can already overcome this limitation. It is built into the CDMA Rev A. spec. The problem is that the carriers didn't put equipment in place to support this feature. So, from a realistic perspective it's the same as if they never added the feature but it is available.
dlewis23
join:2005-04-18
Boca Raton, FL

dlewis23 to FFH5

Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

Much easier to go to T-Mobile since the iPhone woudn't need hardware changes.
Exactly...

That's were its going to go next. It's much easier for apple to bring it to T-Mobile then Verizon.

If AT&T looses the exclusive contact next year, they wont bring it to verizon it doesn't make good economic since to build a another phone for just verizon when you can bring the one you have now to T-Mobile.

The only thing that sucks is T-Mobile's 3G network is pretty sad right now, but they are doing there upgrades quite fast.

SHABAZZ
join:2008-07-13
Seattle, WA

SHABAZZ

Member

Re: Apple...

They’re still going to need to make multi band phones. Remember there is more than a carrier being GSM or CDMA. It’s also the frequencies they use. T-Mobile doesn’t have a lot of spectrum in the US and most of their assets are in the AWS band (2.1) ATT uses a completely different band for their 3G GSM network.
fiberguy2
My views are my own.
Premium Member
join:2005-05-20

fiberguy2 to dlewis23

Premium Member

to dlewis23
That's were its going to go next. It's much easier for apple to bring it to T-Mobile then Verizon.
Possibly..
If AT&T looses the exclusive contact next year, they wont bring it to verizon it doesn't make good economic since to build a another phone for just verizon when you can bring the one you have now to T-Mobile.
How do you come up with this? Verizon and Sprint both have a big chunk of subscribers.. it makes PERFECT economical sense to bring it to them.. 135 million customers is a lot.. Further it's not "just verizon".. T-mobile here in this country is still rather small potatoes.
The only thing that sucks is T-Mobile's 3G network is pretty sad right now, but they are doing there upgrades quite fast.
You hit that one right on the head. apple wants their products to work a certain way.. it's what's bringing the anger out of apple right now. If T-Mobile can't handle or have the power to run the iPhone, why would they flood to T for?

This issue isn't about a world-wide issue.. it's purely domestic for apple. They're not trying to reach out to the world of CDMA users, they're trying to keep their phone users happy here in their own back yard. If ATT can't handle it, then they have to go elsewhere.. Verizon and Sprint are the next answers.
openbox9
Premium Member
join:2004-01-26
71144

1 recommendation

openbox9 to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

Much easier to go to T-Mobile since the iPhone woudn't need hardware changes.
Isn't T-Mobile's network (especially their 3G) a step down from AT&T's coverage? I don't imagine Apple desires to make a bad situation, worse.

tiger72
SexaT duorP
Premium Member
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO

1 edit

tiger72

Premium Member

Re: Apple...

said by openbox9:
said by FFH5:

Much easier to go to T-Mobile since the iPhone woudn't need hardware changes.
Isn't T-Mobile's network (especially their 3G) a step down from AT&T's coverage? I don't imagine Apple desires to make a bad situation, worse.
By next year when the iPhone exclusivity is up, this will be quite different. They're rolling out 3g like crazy right now. Literally 2-3 markets a week are getting lit up with 3g.

Gbcue
Premium Member
join:2001-09-30
Santa Rosa, CA

Gbcue

Premium Member

Re: Apple...

said by tiger72:

said by openbox9:
said by FFH5:

Much easier to go to T-Mobile since the iPhone woudn't need hardware changes.
Isn't T-Mobile's network (especially their 3G) a step down from AT&T's coverage? I don't imagine Apple desires to make a bad situation, worse.
By next year when the iPhone exclusivity is up, this will be quite different. They're rolling out 3g like crazy right now. Literally 2-3 markets a week are getting lit up with 3g.
Lately it's been a dozen. And when T-Mobile releases to a "market", that area is often way larger than what AT&T considers a "market".

odinb
join:2001-11-26
Frisco, TX

odinb to FFH5

Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

Much easier to go to T-Mobile since the iPhone woudn't need hardware changes.
Not true...

Most of the world uses 2100MHz for 3G.
AT&T uses 1900MHz.
T-MO uses 1700MHz.

The iPhone does not support 1700MHz, and will therefor not work on the 3G network, only GPRS/EDGE will be available for your data.
Samsonian
join:2007-06-15

Samsonian

Member

Re: Apple...

It's a (relatively) simple matter of using a radio and antenna that supports 1700/2100 and 1900/2100.

ATT and TMO are both using HSPA, it's not like GSM and CDMA. The only major issue there is the band, and they're pretty close together as well, so antennas shouldn't be a problem.

This is only a temporary problem, the AWS 1700/2100 band is still young. Eventually all major handset radios will support it.
patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY

patcat88 to FFH5

Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

said by baineschile:

Come to verizon...
Much easier to go to T-Mobile since the iPhone woudn't need hardware changes.
Then nobody will get one since there is no coverage in far flung bedroom communities or 2000s built new suburbia, and if you live in an area with coverage, chances are it won't work in any elevators or indoors. Plus TM doesn't do in-market roaming onto the local 800 mhz GSM provider (usually AT&T).

Gbcue
Premium Member
join:2001-09-30
Santa Rosa, CA

Gbcue

Premium Member

Re: Apple...

My phone works in all those places AND roams on 850MHz.

MarkyD
Premium Member
join:2002-08-20
Oklahoma City, OK

MarkyD to FFH5

Premium Member

to FFH5
said by FFH5:

said by baineschile:

Come to verizon...
Much easier to go to T-Mobile since the iPhone woudn't need hardware changes.
Actually, it would need changes. T-Mo 3g is on 1700mhz

RARPSL
join:1999-12-08
Suffern, NY

RARPSL to baineschile

Member

to baineschile
said by baineschile:

Come to verizon...
And T-Mobile - which is ALREADY a GSM system (and thus could support the current iPhones right now with the correct T-Mobile SIM and the phone not being locked to the ATT network) unlike Verizon which would need a new iPhone since Verizon is not GSM.

••••

NOCMan
MadMacHatter
Premium Member
join:2004-09-30
Colorado Springs, CO

NOCMan to baineschile

Premium Member

to baineschile
I'm sure after losing a few million customers to the iPhone VZ is ready to improve their churn numbers at AT&T's expense.

AT&T puts a 7mbit capable radio on a tower but it's only serviced by a few T1's means you're getting a nice shiny new icon on your radio bar but not much else.

In fact they said Dallas would not see upgrades until 2012. By the time Verizon gets the iPhone I'll be able to pay less than 50 dollars ETF and ditch them..

Gbcue
Premium Member
join:2001-09-30
Santa Rosa, CA

Gbcue

Premium Member

Re: Apple...

said by NOCMan:

I'm sure after losing a few million customers to the iPhone VZ is ready to improve their churn numbers at AT&T's expense.

AT&T puts a 7mbit capable radio on a tower but it's only serviced by a few T1's means you're getting a nice shiny new icon on your radio bar but not much else.

In fact they said Dallas would not see upgrades until 2012. By the time Verizon gets the iPhone I'll be able to pay less than 50 dollars ETF and ditch them..
2012? Haha, by that time there'll be LTE (hopefully).
itguy05
join:2005-06-17
Carlisle, PA

itguy05 to baineschile

Member

to baineschile
said by baineschile:

Come to verizon...
Why? Verizon's network sucks as bad as AT&T and would also crush under the iPhone stress.

Verizon = NOTwork, don't buy into the brainwashing.

•••••

Irun Man
Premium Member
join:2002-10-18
Millsboro, DE

Irun Man

Premium Member

Who DIDN'T see this coming?

Jobs sold Apple's soul to the death star, ye shall reap what ye sow.

Verizon Wireless ain't cheap BUT it's hard to dispute their existing 3G network ability and future LTE plans. I see mass defections from AT&T the day the iPhone is finally open to alternate wireless carriers.

•••

Robert
Premium Member
join:2001-08-25
Miami, FL

Robert

Premium Member

AT&T: Milk it while you can..

AT&T knows there is little chance of an iPhone exclusivity extension, so rather than spend money to upgrade their network to please iPhone users, they are just going to milk iPhone users for everything they got.

AT&T you only have a few weeks left until the end of summer - better have MMS ready!

Gbcue
Premium Member
join:2001-09-30
Santa Rosa, CA

Gbcue

Premium Member

Re: AT&T: Milk it while you can..

said by Robert:

AT&T you only have a few weeks left until the end of summer - better have MMS ready!
LOL, what a great way to clog up the backend works.

NOVA_Guy
ObamaCare Kills Americans
Premium Member
join:2002-03-05

NOVA_Guy

Premium Member

Re: AT&T: Milk it while you can..

It seems like AT&T would be the only carrier that would run into these problems.

Why is MMS such a big deal for AT&T anyway? It's not like they haven't been selling tons of other phones that are capable of doing this for years. I take AT&T's worry over clogging up their network with MMS messages as an admission by them that their network just plain can't handle any significant amount of data.

How sad.

Gbcue
Premium Member
join:2001-09-30
Santa Rosa, CA

Gbcue

Premium Member

Go T-Mobile

I'm sure Apple has debated on whether to go with T-Mobile as well.

They should re-think it since T-Mobile has such a large 3G footprint now.

Most of AT&T's iPhone problem stem from urban areas where T-Mobile excels.

••••

PhoenixDown
FIOS is Awesome
Premium Member
join:2003-06-08
Fresh Meadows, NY

PhoenixDown

Premium Member

Slow in NYC

When the 3GS came out, service was great in NYC but lately latency and speeds have been horrible. I need to call ATT support and put in a ticket. If it continues, I will dispute the bill.

••••••••••••••••••••••••

Selenia
Gentoo Convert
Premium Member
join:2006-09-22
Fort Smith, AR

1 edit

Selenia

Premium Member

AT&T getting better here.

It seems to be the backhaul in Pittsfield, MA and surrounding areas. Some of the surrounding areas were tolerable, but Pittsfield(widespread) and select areas were horrible to the point of unusable at peaks hours(usually calls were ok but for the occasional emergency call only, but data was horrendous), even with 5 bars. They even replaced my phones. No improvment(wasn't expecting one but was cooperating with script monkies). This went on for months with steady deterioration.

Now data seems to work very well here in the past several days. Latency is usually decent and connection is usable at peak times like it used to be. I am assuming it's a backhaul upgrade as some spots seemed almost like low-end 3G, but it was the same old EDGE with roughly the same signals(which were usually decent-very good).

Edit: I posted this from a phone on AT&T's network.
SuperWISP
join:2007-04-17
Laramie, WY

SuperWISP

Member

Re: AT&T getting better here.

Pittsfield, MA is not AT&T's home turf. They are paying huge bucks, through the nose, to Verizon for middle mile backhaul (what's called "special access"). So, it's quite likely that they have bandwidth limitations in that area.

If the FCC would act on the issue of special access, there wouldn't be a problem.
Trollhawk
join:2005-05-28

Trollhawk

Member

Why do people think another carrier would be better?

AT&T has one of the largest, most advanced, networks in the country. If they're still upgrading the network, to better support the iPhone, what makes any of you think the situation would be better with T-Mobile or Verizon? No other carrier in the U.S. carries the iPhone, and until one does, you can't be sure that the iPhone won't bog down their network, like it has for AT&T.

It's been popular for people to beg Apple to bring the iPhone to Verizon, as if that will make everything all right. Well did any of those people notice this article, »Verizon App Store To Block Bandwidth-Intensive Apps, from this very site? It shows that Verizon may not fare any better, if they were to get the iPhone.

••••
mobbo
join:2005-04-13
Denton, TX

1 recommendation

mobbo

Member

"Dumbstruck"

I've been trying to find the perfect word to describe the feeling I have whenever I've had to deal with AT&T... that is probably the best way to describe it. AT&T fails, in every sense of the word, at every product we have with them... I never thought I would hate a company more than Charter Communications, but AT&T has somehow taken that trophy.

Burn in hell, AT&T.

Telco_Tech
join:2009-05-18
Toledo, OH

Telco_Tech

Member

Re: "Dumbstruck"

said by mobbo:

Burn in hell, AT&T.
I couldn't have said it better myself. Every experience I've had with that vile company has been awful.

- Tate
bmialone
Premium Member
join:2009-08-15
Anchorage, AK

2 edits

bmialone

Premium Member

Re: "Dumbstruck"

In 2003, it took a letter to my legislator, and one to the CEO of Verizon, to stop them from sending me a bill for $20 that I never owed them, for a paging service account I'd closed but they billed me for it anyway, and to prevent them damaging my credit record over it.

When my phone contract with Verizon ended in 2005, they kept ignoring my letters, phone calls, and emails to close my account. It took a letter to my legislator and a complaint filed with the FCC before Verizon closed my account. They refused to delete my private info, including my SS#, from their records even though I was no longer a customer.

In 2004, I caught AT&T slamming my phone bill by illegally signing itself on as my long distance carrier. Once caught, they quickly agreed to remove themselves from my account and to stop trying to bill me for the months they'd shown up on my bill.

Now I live in Alaska where we have only one cell phone company. Any local companies are really just using the one company's resources and then tacking on extra in the charge so they can make some money too. The one company was Cellular One, but they sold to AT&T. AT&T made us re-sign up with them despite keeping the same numbers, jacked up my price, and offered fewer options under the guise of more.

Cell phone companies force customers to provide our SS# unless we use prepaid by the minute plans, and say they need them to run credit checks even when they are not providing us credit to pay!

I hate them all.
pika2000
join:2005-10-13
Seattle, WA

pika2000

Member

Unlock it.

Apple, sell it unlocked, just like all your other products that are not tied to another companies' services.
Moving to another carrier won't do any good. Verizon has more draconian policy than AT&T. T-Mobile's 3G coverage is very sparse. Just be carrier-agnostic.

MSauk
MSauk
Premium Member
join:2002-01-17
Sandy, UT

MSauk

Premium Member

Re: Unlock it.

I have both verizon and att...and in my state and surrounding states Verizon is MUCH MUCH faster.

Att around these parts, is slooooow.

I would ditch att in a second and go back to verizon if the iphone went there. I love verizons network

NY Tel
Premium Member
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY

NY Tel

Premium Member

VZW

You can only run so long from Ivan Seidenberg. Say what you will, his network, methods & Procedures and overall "we get how to run a phone company" quotient is second to NONE.

MPScan
Premium Member
join:2001-08-24
Boston, MA

MPScan

Premium Member

Re: VZW

AMEN buddy. We all sit here and complain about their prices, but they have the best wireless network. No matter how you twist the numbers, it's a fact.

They have the best FTTH implementation around and they will own the cable companies in their areas in the next 5 years.

Verizon knows what's up... I just wish they hadn't rushed the BlackBerry Storm just because of the iPhone competition.

NY Tel
Premium Member
join:2004-04-09
Smithtown, NY

NY Tel

Premium Member

Re: VZW

said by MPScan:

AMEN buddy. We all sit here and complain about their prices, but they have the best wireless network. No matter how you twist the numbers, it's a fact.

They have the best FTTH implementation around and they will own the cable companies in their areas in the next 5 years.

Verizon knows what's up... I just wish they hadn't rushed the BlackBerry Storm just because of the iPhone competition.
Turned out to be the "most returned phone" in the history of the company. They are releasing a new one, the Storm II soon and perhaps that one will work.
You could hop over to the store on Summer Street and get it updated really quickly...
VansHSI
join:2005-01-29
America

VansHSI

Member

Backhaul vs. Spectrum

What most people don't realize is not only are they not properly upgrading their backhaul to support HSPA 7.2 but they've also maxed out their spectrum in many markets. The result being that no matter what they do on the tower or backhaul side their isn't enough room in the channels they own within the spectrum frequencies to support as many users as they have signed up.

Consequently ATT has gone out recently and purchased additional spectrum to help fill in the gaps... which hopefully will help the users.

Basically - iPhone demand completely overwhelmed ATT and not only were they not prepared it looks like they've been slow to stay on top of things as more and more users sign on. Apple really needs to start selling the handset on all carriers here in the U.S.
sonicmerlin
join:2009-05-24
Cleveland, OH

sonicmerlin

Member

Re: Backhaul vs. Spectrum

Citation please?

Space_Ranger
join:2002-07-15

Space_Ranger to VansHSI

Member

to VansHSI
said by VansHSI:

Basically - iPhone demand completely overwhelmed ATT and not only were they not prepared it looks like they've been slow to stay on top of things as more and more users sign on. Apple really needs to start selling the handset on all carriers here in the U.S.
I agree with this....working in the call center I hav eseen it over the years.

When the first iPhone came out things were pretty normal....as the 3G came out, more calls about service and quality issues, and they have increased as the 3Gs sold more and more

The iPhone was an unexpected strain I think. Let it go to Verizon or TMobile and I suspect the same problems will occur over time.

spike010101
Premium Member
join:2003-11-28
Austin, TX

spike010101

Premium Member

Reguarding the second post..

Regarding how there "is" a cmda phone. Sure Apple may have gone to Verizon first, but that was when the iPhone was "USA Only". The fact that the iPhone is "WorldWide" now in many countries, there really is no benefit to offering two versions in the usa. Because that would require prototypes, testing, and everything done twice, which means twice the cost. In these conditions I highly doubt any company, even Apple would want to spend that much more money for a non-standard technology that's available in a select few countries.
compton
join:2002-02-08
Brooklyn, NY

compton

Member

Re: Reguarding the second post..

said by spike010101:

Regarding how there "is" a cmda phone. Sure Apple may have gone to Verizon first, but that was when the iPhone was "USA Only". The fact that the iPhone is "WorldWide" now in many countries, there really is no benefit to offering two versions in the usa. Because that would require prototypes, testing, and everything done twice, which means twice the cost. In these conditions I highly doubt any company, even Apple would want to spend that much more money for a non-standard technology that's available in a select few countries.
There are about 150 million CMDA users out there, and they are not going anywhere. Verizon is the largest cell phone operator and its customer base is growing; so, if Apple wants to increase their iPhone penetration in North America then they will have to sign on to verizon/Sprint. If Apple gets 10% of Verizon/Sprint customers then that's an additional 15 million customers for Apple all paying through the roof with American green back dollars. Bringing Verizon into the iPhone fold makes sense for Apple strategically as well as financially. This way they can head off any potential rivals before the competition gets any traction.

appleatttmob
@charter.com

appleatttmob

Anon

Let 'em all sell it.


I'm with the idea that Apple simply lose the exclusivity deals period.

Let the other carriers bid for an opportunity to sell the device. Let them all sell it.

I have T-Mobile now and they have 3G solidly built out in my area. They were a little slow, but should surpass the 208 million POPS area by years end and the rest by mid summer next year. They also have HSPA + upgrades next year too along with major backhaul upgrades.

They also use a single band for 3G unlike ATT who has to constantly balance the load between cellular and PCS. This back and forth creates network inconsistencies and varied coverage reports all over the place.

I mean ATT sold the iPhone a couple years back over ATT's EDGE network and many users even in 3G areas run into the 2G network since the other one gets overloaded.

tiger72
SexaT duorP
Premium Member
join:2001-03-28
Saint Louis, MO

tiger72

Premium Member

Re: Let 'em all sell it.

said by appleatttmob :

I'm with the idea that Apple simply lose the exclusivity deals period.

Let the other carriers bid for an opportunity to sell the device. Let them all sell it.
The iPhone won't sell as well when everyone can get it.

Also, Apple won't be able to let ATT or whatever carrier take the heat for its poor app store decisions, bad reception issues, etc.

NOVA_Guy
ObamaCare Kills Americans
Premium Member
join:2002-03-05

NOVA_Guy

Premium Member

Re: Let 'em all sell it.

said by tiger72:

Also, Apple won't be able to let ATT or whatever carrier take the heat for its poor app store decisions, bad reception issues, etc.
I'm still not 100% convinced that Apple acted on their own here with banning, err, not approving, err, having an extended review period for Google Voice.

Think about it... One of Apple's chief complaints is that Google Voice would mimic one of the core functions of the iPhone (the phone part, of course). How many other apps are in the App Store right now that mimic other core functions of the iPhone?

I can point to a bunch that do SMS texting; that's a core function.

I can point to other audio players that stream Internet radio. That's mimicing the iPod functionality. Heck, Orb goes even one step further by allowing you to stream your whole audio and video collection from your home PC to your iPhone.

I still say that something smells downright rotten about Apple's and AT&T's story surrounding Google Voice.

I'm not saying that Apple doesn't deserve a finger or two pointed squarely at it for poor decisions here; I'm just saying that I find it extremely hard to believe that AT&T is as innocent as they claim to be.
jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC

jfmezei

Premium Member

CDMA is proprietary and has no future. Not worth the effort.

Haven't read everything, but have a few comments.

First, there is a difference between cdma and CDMA. "cdma" is a technique/philosophy to handle collisions on shared medium. "CDMA" is a proprietary network implementation owned by Qualcomm Corp which charges royalties for use of its network stack. That means that every handset manufactured that support's Qualcomm's proprietary protrocol sees parts iof its revenues flow to Qualcomm (aka: less profits for manufacturer and network).

Also, 3G GSM, instead of using tdma, uses cdma philosophy. Its implementation is called wcdma, to differentiate it from CDMA2000 which is Qualcomm's proprietary imkplementation for 3G.

Apple would have also seen Nokia's legal problems with Qualcomm with Qualcomm suing Nokia for stupid reasons, and Nokia in the end no longer making phones for Qualcomm's CDMA. Qualcomm should have learned not to sue its customers.

Finally, while this may not have been overly obvious a few years ago, it is now obvious that CDMA is at the end of the road and has become a dead-end. Sprint and Verizon will not be able to evolve to a 4G version of CDMA, they will need to move to the world standard "GSM" for 4G.

It is not a given that Apple would have actually manufactured even a prototype CDMA phone. That would have required that they sign agreements with Qualcomm to get the specs and chips/software to operate on a CDMA network. With GSM, you pay a flat fee for the documentation of the stack, and there are no royalties to pay for each handset.

So it would be far easier to develop a GSM handset prototype than a CDMA one.

Personally, I await availability of reasonably priced unlocked (as in: OEM, never locked) iphones before I buy one. Flying to europe to buy one is a bit too pricey for me

•••
tuminatr9
join:2003-03-19
Saint Paul, MN

tuminatr9

Member

cdma is currently the dominant 3g in North America

umm and china, and Japan just about everywhere but Europe CDMA is the best 3g network hands down, as for voice and data at the same time

»www.phonescoop.com/news/ ··· p?n=4705

and here is a 3g network comparison

»cellularmap.net/3g_compare.shtml

coverage is all about what works for you, Verizon ownes and operates about 95% of its domestic network AT&T about 50%

»cellularmap.net/net_comp ··· re.shtml

the easy way to think of it is the rest of at&t's coverage is rented, and just like all of us what is better cared for a rented apartment or a home that you own that is why they have good coverage when you are in the city and not so good when you leave

••••
glinc
join:2009-04-07
New York, NY

glinc

Member

This

Apple and AT&T should run this ad

»www.youtube.com/watch?v= ··· D3kAnR5U


best ad ever!
Beans5
join:2005-07-16
united state

Beans5

Member

att exclusive round 2

I say let it go for round 2. Why because att has the iphone so it knows what to expect, and because att is clogged that could be leverage for apple at the table. Apple can tell att to either upgrade there network, or they get kicked to the curb.
TampaVoIP
join:2002-05-10
Tampa, FL

TampaVoIP

Member

Archaic infrastructure...

Why is this country's infrastructure so archaic? Simple -- companies are more responsive to their shareholders and their short-sightedness than looking out for the company's own long-term best interests. Thus, none of these companies want to do the right thing and improve their infrastructure.

It's quite pathetic really. I often find it easier to get quality communications and more reliable power in 3rd world countries than I do in the United States.