Can the Wonks Beat the Trolls on Government Sites?

Beth NoveckHiroko Masuike for The New York Times Beth Noveck, the head of the White House Open Government Initiative.
Policy and Law

People have been crowing about online communities for decades, but creating a space where people feel comfortable talking to one another is actually a difficult task. Successful online sites have found a way to welcome newcomers, make regulars feel at home and manage the provocations of “trolls,” spammers and misanthropes of all sorts.

The Obama administration is running into some eccentric characters of it own as it tries to build Web sites to get citizens talking about public policy. I wrote in Tuesday’s Times about how an brainstorming session about open government on the White House Web site attracted vocal comments from people calling for exposure of records on U.F.O’s, legalization of marijuana and an investigation into alleged defects in the president’s birth certificate.

The White House is hardly naïve in its foray into the scrum of the Web. Beth Simone Noveck, the New York Law School professor appointed by President Obama as deputy chief technology officer for open government, has studied these systems as much as anyone. She built Peer to Patent, a system that lets experts assist patent examiners with technical information.

Ms. Noveck has some strong views about how to create sites that get the best out of people. She was too diplomatic to disparage anyone participating in the forums she is setting up. But she was clear that over time, with the right structures, the wonks will in fact triumph over the trolls, and policy discussions will thrive.

The most important lesson she draws from previous experiments with online public participation is that sites need to be designed carefully to keep people on topic.

“If you don’t frame the debate, if you don’t ask a good question, you don’t get a good answer to the question,” she said.

Similarly, having a given discussion running for a short period of time also improves the quality of the conversation, she said, and it also doesn’t overwhelm government officials with far to much to read.

“If people are going to be asked to spend the time on contributing, you want to use the participation they give you,” she said. “If you run a dialog over weeks and weeks, you cannot begin to use the inputs you are given.”

While Ms. Noveck is trying to use social networking tools as a model, she said the government must also create a culture that is in some ways more formal than much of the rest of the Web. On sites like Slashdot, she said, the most popular posts are “the funniest or the snarkiest.” But that’s not an appropriate standard when trying to debate policy.

On Peer to Patent, users were told specifically to rate ideas based on how relevant they were to the patent itself. “You weren’t voting on something because of the reputation of the person posting it or because it was funny.”

But even if most participants accept the serious mission of a government site, what to do about those blowhards and showoffs who do show up, not to mention those who simply have a sincere belief in some view (say the existence of U.F.O.’s) not held by the vast majority of other participants?

Ms. Noveck had two answers. First, there are the tools developed on the Internet to let users vote on submissions by others or even flag some comments as inappropriate. Second, she argued that as many more agencies start opening up to the public about specialized topics, the discussions will attract fewer off-topic discussions.

“Even on something like open government policy, it is broad enough and the megaphone is big enough, by virtue of doing it on the White House Web site, that we will attract a lot of chaff with the wheat,” she said.

At the same time, Ms. Noveck hopes that the Internet culture can also change government. Her effort, she suggested, is breaking more than a few taboos. In addition to the public brainstorming session, she ran another online discussion for government officials. This was unusual in that it asked for ideas from people at every level of government, speaking on their own. That’s very different from the usual structure in which feedback on ideas posed by one agency is funneled up through the chain of command at other agencies.

And she argues that government blogging itself is still provocative. The series of posts about open government policy on the blog of the Office of Science and Technology Policy are the first on any White House blog, even in the Obama administration, to be open to comments from users.

“Even something like having a blog with an open discussion about policy is so revolutionary in the way government works,” she said.

It may not sound like a revolution if government officials simply listen more to members of the public, but it’s not really that revolutionary if the opinions are then ignored by the bureaucrats. Ms. Noveck is clear that none of her efforts is meant to create a sort of direct democracy.

“There is a reason you want people with expertise working in the jobs we have,” she said. But she said that the new online tools will nonetheless put pressure on officials to take public opinion into account.

“It makes it impossible, I hope, for us to go about our business ignoring the information presented to us.”

Comments are no longer being accepted.

“Even something like having a blog with an open discussion about policy is so revolutionary in the way government works,” she said.

Its a remarkable moment and an Inflexion point. I full agree that keeping on Topic is a challenge and that Framing the debate is a sine qua non.

However, I do believe the c21st is one that will be defined as a Century where Intellectual Capital is King. The best Governments and the best Corporations need to leverage what is a much flatter World.

Its about creating Platforms which are essentially democratic where the best ideas can percolate with little ado to the very top in accelerated time.

I genuinely hope this Initiative is rolled out to its maximum extension and those Countries that enable this will surely outperform.

It has a Political and an Economic dimension. You do not tap into all your Human Capital and you lose.

Aly-Khan Satchu
//www.rich.co.ke
Twitter alykhansatchu

“But even if most participants accept the serious mission of a government site, what to do about those blowhards and showoffs who do show up, not to mention those who simply have a sincere belief in some view (say the existence of U.F.O.’s) not held by the vast majority of other participants?”

There is a much bigger problem. The way American education is structured, many beliefs, such as a belief that fascism isn’t socialism or that universal health care is good for individuals and society, are perceived by graduates of American universities as much weirder than a belief in the existence of U.F.O.

Hey Saul, who are these trolls?. I certainly hope you’re not referring to marijuana activists, because if you are your calling 22 million Americans trolls. What you and the Government wants is a way to appear as if there is some open dialogue, yet control the whole conversation. If you don’t want honest questions everyday people want answered than stay off the internet. If you want to hear questions that the rich and powerful would like to be asked then go hang out with the white house press core during a White House press conference.

Why do you regard legalizing marijuana to be “chaff”? An average of 17 people a day are murdered by the Mexican cartels as a direct result of our marijuana prohibition. Two thousand people are arrested every single day simply for having cannabis flowers.

The prohibition costs taxpayers $40 billion a year and does far more harm than good. Why do you consider it a fringe issue to ask for it to be ended?

What other issue will save the lives of 6,000 people a year, end 800,000 needless arrests every year, and rid our neighborhoods of drug dealers?

When we legalize the production and sale of marijuana to adults, with after-tax prices set too low for dealers to match, the drug dealers will have no choice but to leave our neighborhoods, and when they go so too will our kids’ ability to access marijuana.

Fringe issue nothing! This issue is of crucial importance to every parent in this country and every person with the ability to feel compassion for the suffering of others.

The bashing of those who wish to see thousands of lives made better through the use of Medical Marijuana and putting them on the same level as Birthers and UFO freaks shows just how far to the right the WaPo has become.

The Marijuana debate is a real issue that imprisons thousand of Americans every year, some who were following there own States laws. Abe Lincoln once stated the any form of Prohibition runs counter to the very ideas of Democracy. It’s past time those with no clue on the issues that effect millions of families on a daily basis treated the issue as some kind of conspiracy. Just this week Barney Franks introduced 2 bills before Congress, one on Medical Marijuana and one on recreational use.
The majority of Americans support Medical Marijuana and Pres. Obama lead the voters to believe he did too. Since he has been in office the number of broken promises has multiplied like rabbits. He asked that we hold his feet to fire but when we do he sends out his people to whine about it. Not very presidential now is it ?

Aside from being an embarrassment – did I just hear that people who don’t agree with the majority should be culled? Censored for the good of the whole? Who gets to decide? When the decision is made and the acolytes are soothed what will you have? A quilting bee? And where on this planet are people who believe in UFO’s a minority? It sounds like “Talk’O’Bama”, or whatever you call it, is just another little clique. Cliques are always made up of small people who long to be considered “the chosen ones”. I got news for you – people – there are no chosen ones. It’s just a story.

“Similarly, having a given discussion running for a short period of time also improves the quality of the conversation, she said, and it also doesn’t overwhelm government officials with far to much to read.”

But leaving one O out of “too” doesn’t really save readers much trouble.

If this is the official response then lets turn it around and substitute UFO/Drugs and what not for Bible/God/religion.

You wouldn’t dare go there now would you.

I find these types of articles to be nothing more than a farce to ridicule and deride serious investigations and concerns into those matters.

Ridiculous. Now wonder CNN is loosing viewers.

Every major poll I’ve seen recently shows that the majority of Americans believe there is a UFO cover up and that ETs have visited Earth. An open forum where people can bring issues up like UFOs is a rarity, but shouldn’t be.

I find you and your whole article to be pompous and self-absorbed.

…hey kids…
…as a cripple and a registered medical marijuana patient…i love baseball and the fantasy games…on esspin not on the Hill…and also count my self as a political junkie of long standing…i am online frequently…irrespective i have only been online for any period consistantly for a short while…as a lifelong frontline evironmental and social justice activist…ain’t that moniker cool as i used to just be a radical!…i want and desire dialogue on many issues and have been trying to find some…what has been working for me is the engaging of a blog that you want to debate on and just keep at it…this is theroy that i am currently putting into practice…i keep hoping…with love and prayers…meyer…p.s…oh yeah i do not think the government is doing anything in this vein except most likely using the data from this endeavor for future control…but if we keep asking questions they have to keep on making up answers…peace

So nice of The White House, with the full support of its corporate media vanguard, to expand the definition of “troll” to individuals whose areas of interest and concern do not comport with the elite opinion-makers whose monopoly on public discourse has thus far yielded permanent war, an entrenched national security state, an ever-widening chasm between The Haves and The Have Not’s and remarkably bleak prospects for averting global socioeconomic and ecological cataclysms.

At least the political elite (which includes both private and public sectors) is unencumbered by any antiquated notions of “public service” or “representing The People.” They formulate the test, provide us with multiple choice answers ranging from (a.) to (b.), and Americans, being a free people Who Take Things Seriously, get to exercise our freedom by choosing (a.) or (b.).

By all means, let us all only concern ourselves with whatever topics are deemed “serious” and “important” by the millionaires and billionaires who make up the American and global elite. The Kings & Kingmakers desperately need window dressing to simulate *inclusion* and *democracy* – and those with the temerity to categorically reject the role play are marginalized and deemed “trolls” by the by the naive and malevolent denizens of this fraudulent kabuki republic.

This article illustrates one simple fact: Republicans or Democrats, the American political system is a top-down affair. Is it anywhere near realistic to believe Obama, Inc., is truly advocating transparency… while the administration continues doing everything in its power to retain the ill-gotten Unitary Executive powers magically concocted by Bush-Cheney, Inc.? No, it isn’t.

_____________

Obama: What are your concerns?

Public: [fill in the blank]

Obama: That isn’t on The List, troll.

Public: But you asked, and those are my concerns.

Obama: Pick something on The List or shut up.
_____________

Freedom: It’s whatever They say it is.

If Marijuana is considered off topic and trolling by a government that arrests more than a million people a year for marijuana, that we have not a republic or a democracy, but a dictatorship ran by an oligarchy who wish to deceive their serfdom by conspiring to present the perception of an open dialogue.

A trillion dollars has been spent, no make that squandered on a useless war on American citizens. A war on drugs that has destroyed families, enriched police and politicians and their masters in the corporate incarceration businesses. Drug testing is useless yet mandatory for many positions, we should be testing for intoxication based on impairment, not whats in someones urine. The most dangerous drugs are rapidly metabolized, so marijuana with its 30 plus days of detectability becomes the hallmark of urine testing. Remove marijuana from urine testing and the whole scheme becomes cost ineffective and even more useless.

That those in the government do not wish to discuss that from which they profit, does not surprise me. That they should so openly ask for input then throw it away seems to be a standard for the contempt which with they hold the body politic. We the voters are merely warm bodies, wallets with legs to be tapped at campaign time then ignored.

One quarter of all states have legalized medical marijuana, soon it will be one third, then one half etc.
What will the federal government do when the states disagree with the stupid destructive policies of the federal government? Will the federal government lead or get out of the way, or wait for the secession movement to begin again?

We can no longer afford an expensive war on drugs or a huge federal government, both must be abolished as soon as possible.

I can’t wait for the day we have a true democracy where individuals can vote on laws and measures directly as opposed to our current representative democracy which is inherently plagued with corruption and protection of the status quo. We have never before had the ability to run such a truly democratic form of government.

We will finally be free from people like you telling us what type of policies are acceptable for us to be interested in and which are not. Things will actually get done. It will be a great advance for humanity. It is just around the corner…

Catherine Fitzpatrick July 21, 2009 · 1:37 am

I’ve long been alarmed by Beth Noveck’s collectivist theories:

//secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2009/02/the-coming-collectivization.html

When she first came to Second Life in 2006 and started a closed island called “Democracy” but then never really followed up, I began to actively worry when I saw how little accord she gave to individual rights, and how much she promoted faddish online theories about groups that in fact draw on the same ideas as the totalitarianisms of the 20th century:

//secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2005/11/horrible_group_.html

I never imagined in my worst nightmare that someone with this sort of extremist ideology, who distracts from some of this extremism by picking populist topics like “let’s fix the patents systems,” would actually *come to power*. I find it *chilling*.

What Luke says here is symptomatic of this entire sick tekkie mess: undermining representative democracy, achieved by valid voting systems, and replacing it with unelected wired mobs, who do end-runs around institutions set up with check and balances and *separation of powers*. There is no separation of powers in the wiki vision of Noveck and others who want executive fiat installed by coders to replace real democracy.

What’s amazing about Beth is how she has doubled back to undo her supposed wikitarian views to install, like Clay Shirky, more checks on the group’s set of individuals with various empowered leaders or facilitators–so now we’re really talking collectivism with its typical ruse of pretending to be for everybody, and faking equality, while a few run roughshod.

There is this terribly romantic yet totalitarian notion that “corruption” and “protection of the status quo” won’t be inherent in the wikitarian metaverse. Of course it will. And with no separation of powers for the wired crowdsourced mobs, no open legislative debate and free media, we will have just one set of wonks deciding who is a “troll” – by which they mean anyone who disagrees with them forcefully.

I don’t want wonks to triumph over trolls. I didn’t elect these wonks, they are executive appointments over which Congress has little knowledge or say. I don’t think *they* should get to determine what a “troll” is — an overbroad notion that shouldn’t be invoked in a democratic discourse. It’s a vicious hangover from the geeky days of the Well and the gamerz culture.

A major problem with this wikitarian approach handing over decisions over “who is a troll” to “wonks” is that the First Amendment is completely undone. Where is the public commons where the First Amendment will be given effect and enjoyment? Certainly not in Noveck’s wikiverse.

Direct democracy and e-government and Gov 2.0 are all shills — when Noveck says only experts can run things she’s harking back to the Bolshevik model that imposed collectivist ideas like this by force in the Soviet Union.

These views are among the greatest threats to American democracy and free speech in our time, and the wonkiness of the topic means they get little notice as they instill a revolution by stealth.

The awful insolent and insular culture of the opensource movement around Stallman, the Well, Linux, etc. has bled into the body politic now and is affecting even basic freedoms of media and governance. This could happen not only because of the Silicon Valley funding of the Obama campaign, among other lefties, but because Chicago radicals and related leftists attracted to opensource romanticism also backed Obama and became advisers (Lessig, Noveck).

We need to ask some very hard questions of this new powerful wonk silencing critics by labelling them as “trolls”:

1. Who supervises the coders on your wiki? Do the users of the government’s wiki get to participate in its coding decisions or are they kept out of the loop while a select elite makes social policy under the guise of technological problems like “solving bugs”?

2. Can you vote “no” on this wiki? Or must you only double-plus-good everything up or “rate it” up?

3. Is there a tiny cabal as on Wikipedia that really makes the decisions on how to resolve editing wars and controversies? How many government employees are actually using the wiki, and how are they incorporated into decision making?

4. Where/how/ are decisions made about what kind of software to purchase? Is there a tilt toward picking opensource software for ideological reasons? Is anybody tracking the real budget for software, and what type it is? The IT dashboard is woefully inadequate, showing not even what type of software, its name, the consulting cost, the licensing cost, whether OS, etc.

5. How are purchasing decisions made about software solutions? Are these benefiting any inside the new digital beltway, the Gov 2.0 types flocking to all the big IT sponsored seminars and barcamps and unconferences to really decide things behind the scenes, away from Congress and the American people? do you think if you twitter from some ecstatic workshop about how groovy Drupal is, that you have enacted transparency?

There is a LOT that needs to be done to make this bunch accountable. They are indeed the most frightening thing that has ever happened to the U.S. government in my life time. We could stop Bush and torture and the ruination of Constitutional freedoms with our existing long traditions of civil rights litigation, media, NGOs, and of course representative democracy! But we will find it very hard to stop people who use the gamerz techniques of boot/ban/mute/eject/.

Catherine Fitzpatrick July 21, 2009 · 3:35 pm

I don’t see Beth Noveck’s salary posted on this list of White House employee salaries thoughtfully and transparently provided by our new transparent Gov 2.0 here:

//www.whitehouse.gov/blog/Annual-Report-to-Congress-on-White-House-Staff-2009/

I also don’t see the salaries listed of Aneesh Chopra, the White House CTO.

I also don’t see the salary of Vivek Kundra, Federal Chief Information Officer.

Why?

These armchair politicos support both the pro and con of an argument with great bravado. It’s a sport played for centuries – at times mistakenly revered as a source of wisdom or estuarial protection.

We’ve broken economies and created oppressed splinter cultures as a result, due to the effort needed to maintain general ignorance of true public opinion.

It’s not about the names of the participants – accounts can be hacked and muted all too conveniently – but it is about the repeated activities within online communities to antagonize genuine members of any group into draining precious time and energy to fight disinformation rather than using those resources for advancement. In not giving these new voices even the resources they have to begin with, they are quickly taken over by disinformation mock-debates and online sock puppet shows until the only visible remnant of that idea remaining is sterilized, usually nonsensical parody or double entendre supporting the opposition. A yellow mark in the snow to demoralize legitimate supporters, and coerce new entrants into supporting something else entirely.

Modernized clichés of might makes right are repeated in these sorts of social network dramas until any competing ideas are finally silenced without ever attaining a legitimate chance for consideration in the public mind. The voice of the few can only shout so loud before the echo of the many doesn’t hear once it’s wound to strike.

The hypocrisy of claiming to revere moral values while perpetrating these misinformation mock-debates, regardless of the big-picture drain they cause, is older than the hills – sophistry – and only creates more arbitrary feudalism to maintain the status quo that supports whatever target economic intent is being protected.

Germany made great headway some time ago prosecuting fly-by-nights that practice astroturfing, or agendized socio-political support of topics online, amounting it to fraud, which it is. Years from now this will be self-evident everywhere as circumspect exposure of the harm done to individuals in the name of propping up non-competitive business and social models. Aside from the fact that astroturfing is irresponsible and outwardly harmful to thousands – sometimes millions – of susceptible readers, the virulent way it attacks and immobilizes communities online and the cultural and social fabric of the victims’ everyday lives is both the true power and danger.

In the case of the Open Government Initiative, was the overall goal of the government to hear solutions to specific questions supported or obstructed? If it was obstructed, it was not the colorful special interest groups seemingly clogging the discussion who were at fault, because they are aware of how to best advance their causes. Chances are by making these believably kooky touch points into a zoo parade from the early stages of the conversation, certain as yet unidentified interest groups are hoping dishearten the whole intent at a fair shot for everyday citizens to be equally vocal.

Most likely, this sort of DOS-style maneuver is meant to conserve the enormous amount of resources such seedy groups will have to invest to keep drowning out the voices of the true public opinion. In short, they are deeply worried for a time when such interactions become all the more mainstream.

We can only hope that at the point where these small collectives of organized sophists reach capacity, the flood of the many true voices will finally be able to create a more representative expectation for policy and at last the moderate view will emerge unhindered to voice the true mind of the peoples.

In the mean time it’s important not to fall into the trap of wasting our communal energies slowing down one another to the amusement and convenience of an opponent intent on keeping the internet unfriendly to our kind for as long as possible. For now bickering won’t do. Only a handful of dust from each hand, earnestly passed along the line will continue to rebuild the lookout while it’s being pummeled.

Catherine Fitzpatrick July 21, 2009 · 4:43 pm

Lesley, I’m not an armchair anything, if you are referring to me in this debate. I participate in all kinds of NGOs and real projects in the real world and travel to real places where I become really concerned about existing and past totalitarian ideologies and their effects.

You seem to invoke the sort of argument that I often hear authoritarian leaders used. “Let’s stop all these intellectuals in the cafes in the capital from ranting and raving, they’re useless, let’s put them to work, let’s send them out to the countryside to harvest potatoes where they can do some good.” In countries like that, the potatoes are often as stunted as the politics.

Er, we don’t have communal energies, because we haven’t agreed to, or been forced to march into any communal farm.

If you can’t take competing ideas, then you don’t understand what democracy and democratic debate and deliberation are, and you, like Prof. Noveck, want to impose a collectivized ideology on us all.

I’m not in any oppressed splintered culture — at least not yet. I’m living in one of the freest countries in the world, posting my thoughts on a free newspaper about an official that I actually didn’t elect, but who was appointed by an elected official, and I’m in the proper task of a citizen, which is to challenge that official to accountability.

Whose got a sockpuppet here? The problem is vastly overstated, even for Joe Trippi.

From where I can see it, the Open Government Initiative is a kind of shill, it’s used to commandeer public opinion and override traditional media skepticism and critical reporting when needed for cynical political expediency, and when it has served its purpose, it is suppressed as it tends to talk to much about UFOs and pot.

I’m not worried about birthers and other nutters drowning out the voices of reasoned and intellectual debate. I’m much more worried that in the name of muting those people, many legitimate discussants are also pushed into the memory hole in a system like Noveck’s double-plus-good clicking.

I’m sorry, but as sincere as it may be, I don’t buy your serial processing motif of passing along dirt from hand to hand to make a pile. Parallel processing by all kinds of people passing all kinds of things to make diverse builds are still what we need in American democracy.

Catherine, I can honestly say I wasn’t referring to you.

Many social media communities online are manipulated by small groups of users operating under the fraudulent appearance of numbers greater than there are. Typically these fictional users are distributed among both sides to loudly ping pong the topic at hand and ultimately rig the end result so that it will appear the pre-chosen opinion is the more popular one, when in reality it is neither chosen nor popular in the actual community of earnest contributors – who’s identity is effectively stolen by this practice.

This behavior is rampant yet virtually uncommented, a heightened danger in that it becomes a wall of propaganda to alienate true social media community users away from apt information by making the target community look weak and less legitimate – and the targeted content harder to sift through with seemingly nonsensical rebuttal support.

So this behavior is much more of a personal attack on these groups than the academic sport often touted by the practitioners. Worse, social media becomes a tainted sample by which the world at large compares and considers evolving trends and cultures and the state of opinions purportedly arising from certain groups or demographics.

Some active social media participants revere this behavior as suitable competitive practice to sharpen their skills of debating and persuasion, possibly for political, lobbying, or marketing purposes. But the inherent lack of sincerity and overall collateral damage done to these social media communities is far more of a debt than any small group of extemporaneous wunderkinds can ever repay society as they have often permanently misinformed millions of lay readers as well as destructively altered the identities of the groups they intimidate into silence.

This is not a new social phenomenon by any means, but with the power of the internet to make mechanical responses from small resources appear as whole armies of intimidating opponents to genuine users, the social and psychological effect on millions of readers is one of chilling proportions.

So I’ll have to disagree that this problem could be vastly overstated. Quite the contrary, it’s one of the most misunderstood causes of immobility and failure the social media industry has yet faced. Communities no longer thrive once they are abandoned in disgust, left to change hands completely often with no outward warning to new members. In effect, they become tools to eliminate any opposition by making the opposition a mockery of itself.

To add to the complexity, it is often the moderator and administrator positions these groups strive for, so in many respects when trust is broken all the way up the chain, there is little to do but to be supportive of other users as they begin to realize if and when the dirty politics prevents them from communicating information which is valuable to the actual user base.

Users can only attempt to protect one another as much as possible due to this inherent ambiguity of social media – who is who? You will never, ever know. The web 2.0 goal is not just to share information with the collective, but not fall for the bait of abusing each other, to avoid the degradation through pointing out the true issues at hand – continuing to pass what legitimate information we have available despite the background noise and toning down our own reactionary cries – as they are in the end only used to mock or misidentify us.

Encouraging users to stay critical _respectfully_ empowers a stronger voice for the true communities within emerging social mediums. It will also remove the biggest source of power to manipulate earnest users – the knee-jerk false accusations often lobbed against each other specifically to stop an effective debate. As we all surmise, often the biggest hotheads in social media collectives are not the instigators themselves, they are the unwitting tools pushed in front of unsuspecting users to increase ad impression sales, or quickly run off a successful example of a working social media community folded against itself.

Catherine Fitzpatrick July 22, 2009 · 4:23 am

Glad to hear it Leslie, it’s hard to know when you make general statements that seem to have an address. However, your entire argument here would have a lot more validity if you cited concrete examples of large social media sites you are talking about — it is truly vague.

I agree that many social media communities develop these small groups of users on various sides of the issue. While some may be sincere, they can be exploited by the companies running the forums, or various interests — and often favouritism develops and that sort of Lord of the Flies atmosphere where Raph doesn’t even have a conch, but has a ban hammer because he’s been made a res-mod.

Clay Shirky wrote about some of this in “The Group is Its Own Worst Enemy,” yet I’ve countered that with my own essay, “The Group is Our Own Worst Enemy” because people who imagine they are the “soul of the group” and its fierce gate-keepers then block progress or innovation and develop pioneers’ syndrome or simply cannot work with due process and Roberts Rules of Order. Nobody uses Roberts Rules of Order online, and we need a new Roberts — but not those smarmy, hortatory little fanboyz rules you constantly see being devised and posted with ever greater elaboration (like the awful arcane wiki editing rules), but simple and effective rules of democracy, like “nothing about us/without us,” participation in the making of the software itself, so that you don’t get a situation such as being created by Beth Noveck, where she, as an expert cadre, gets to frame every issue and herself, or her minions, get to cut off comments.

I frankly find it horrifying that every bad bit of culture from the Well, Second Life, Slashdot, etc. is being brought into *the government of the United States of America*. I never thought in my worst nightmare, when I saw Ms. Noveck start up an island in Second Life called “Democracy” — closed to the public in a closed group until people began to complain — that she’d be in *The White House*. And that’s why I don’t care if I have to keep raising all the really bad collectivist thnking she brings to these efforts and get to be a nuisance, because frankly, our freedoms are at stake. I didn’t ask for wiki government; it was not debated in Congress; it is being imposed by executive fiat.

I think that some of what you are describing is already visible on some of the much-vaunted Gov 2.0 sites and Noveck’s in particular. The little fanboyz and fangirlz appearing with prissy and politically correct recipes and trying to please the teacher; the meaningless drones; the wonky and sectarian Connectivists who have been to too many educational software seminars and Moodled themselves to death — the whole awful culture that in fact dumbs down discourse on PowerPoints and Mindmaps and silly role-playing games and never touches ground and accomplishes real work.

I don’t share your pessimism that somehow the “true” social media users — whoever they are — need to be dismayed by these fake grassroots groups you describe, and the answer is more access for individuals, not less. Noveck’s ideology is sinister in that regard because *first* she extols and privileges groups and says they are better than individuals and we need groups and not individuals to run government (collectivism), *then* she pulls the rugs out from any self-made group and democratically-run group and suddenly says, oops, we have 10,000 postcards from morons, better have the experts take over — but not *those* experts appointed by those people in representative government — which we hate because we think it’s correct — but *us*.

I’m sorry if this earns me scorn for appearing to be seeing reds under the bed, but I can only describe this tactic the way I see it from the places I’ve learned it from: Bolshevik. It’s bureaucratism, promoting “democratic centralism,” where cadres do deliberate and do take input from “groups” (the central committee, the Leningrad party committee, the Rostov party committee) and then form a collectivist policy. It really is not a new ideology; it’s actually rather old and rather discredited and rather dangerous precisely because it eliminates the critical individual from the equation and privileges fiercely loyal collectives that are singled out by those in power as the annointed ones. It is a very, very different model than the traditional interplay of interest groups and lobbyists clashing among themselves to make policy, with individual citizens or civic groups or self-made experts trying to make their way among them. It is, instead, the campus socialist’s dream: a really smart group of intellectuals will get together on a committee and run things, because they know better — and they promise not to be corrupt.

I totally hear you about the groups tainting the social media image. But let me point out to you where your information is coming from on this: a handful of cadres around Obama pushing this message. OMGODZORZ, they tell us, all these dope-smokers and birthers are writing in as we can’t possibly have this and *we* need to step in and cull all this mess and “shape” it. And instead of running the forums like anyone in a good social media site would run it — allow such expression but just park it in the “rants and raves” folder, and pronounce it off-topic if it shows up in “politics” or “general” — the new Gov 2.0 web czars cite all this special-interest bombing as a reason not to have comments at all, or for a reason to allow only special cadre frame the issues so that anything can be declared “off topic”. I notice Noveck is making handy use of the “off topic” button.

And I also agree that seeing the flotsam and jetsam of open boards like this with calculated shills and sockpuppets and mass bombings of issues, especially if anonymous posting is allowed a la YouTube, can be terribly intimidating and discouraging to the average person who then retreats to their safe little Facebook friends circle. But…that’s no reason to shut down comments. Moderate them better. Encourage more participation, not less. Empower those intimidated by adopting an editorial voice. Moderators can and should adopt an editorial voice on these sites and step in and even say “Look, we’ve had 10,000 comments from birthers now, we hear you, you are not validated however, because here’s the snopes.com page on that, but go on and keep bringing fresh evidence if you like, only in this folder over here, or be moved there as off-topic.” Such a moderator should naturally be subjected to correctives without fear or favour, if the unilaterally do not sense the board that some group is overwhelming, but instead shut down what is in fact a topic the whole board is seized with.

I likely differ from you, however, in the diagnosis of this problem. You seem to suggest that there are so many whackos, aggressive lobbiests like the marijuana legalizers and such, because no one is moderating the forums *enough*. But I think these situations happen because the forums are not free *enough* — especially of the fear of banning, IP blocking, harassment, etc. — to enable normal people who are the mainstream to come in and argue with the extremists. So often what happens is that when a mainstream person *does* begin to argue with the “regulars”, the seasoned, cynical and malicious lobbyist can immediate abuse-report him for some minor infraction, real or imagined, or goad him into violating the TOS of that service. Then he is helpless as *he* is banned, instead of the seasoned junkyard dog of the forums that drives everyone away by either sucking up to the devs or riding under the radar as they violate the TOS with impunity. The answer to *that* problem is more freedom, not less, because in my experience, you can simply never find devs who will dispassionately moderate enough not to allow the weaker but more mainstream groups hold their own against the biters.

I’m with blogger.com on this (before they were taken over by Google and nerfed): unless you bring a court order requiring the removal of libelous speech, the speech is remaining. The only thing you can say is that it will be segregated in sections so that casual or timid or busy users don’t have to be bogged down by it.

I don’t fear mocking because I think what’s at stake here is far, far too important. Our First Amendment has nowhere to go, Leslie. There is no keeper of the public commons where this First Amendment can really practically be enjoyed anymore. I am not going to the town square to talk to the squirrels; everybody is online. Every single online setting is not a public commons *really* but a private corporation’s lawn where they may or may not let you put out a sign. Ever single large social media site hides behind a TOS, which the user signs upon joining, and while judges have ruled, for example, that the Second Life TOS is “unconscionable” and a “contract of adhesion” in certain respects, it matters not, as that only served to bolt down the TOS harder, and make the lawyers circle around it tighter.

Until there are some really sterling court cases to force these giant social media companies with millions of users casually and arbitrarily banning people without due process or appeal, or grabbing their content or not letting them close their account, we will not see progress on these issues, and we should definitely NOT be porting that awful oppressive culture into “wiki government”. On all these social media sites the government runs, there should be an absolute uniform set of guidelines for moderations and they simply must comply with the First Amendment. Currently they most certainly do *not* (See DipNote for example). A private newspaper might say that it has the right to edit letters to the editor, and if you don’t like it, well, don’t buy the newspaper or don’t read it, go to another one, or start your own blog. But the government must not be allowed to imitate that restrictive practice, meant to uphold freedom of association, to trump freedom of speech.

Users don’t “need” to be dismayed at coercive agendas online, as if they aren’t. People are inherently dismayed when they face intimidation tactics specifically meant to stifle.

Suggesting users must allow themselves to feel intimidated is blaming the victims and ignoring the very real problem preventing societies from effectively absorbing new ideas.

Some say that solution is greater restriction, but avoiding that I’m merely proposing first-step education – a nod that these games are indeed happening in social media and a show of support through our own behavior that not all accounts are harmful fakes and malicious frauds.

In a faceless environment it’s more important to behave benevolently – that is to say, resist infighting. Our communications can and will be manipulated out of context to make us all seem more frightening – and therefore supposedly in need of more restrictions. Instead of falling for the trap, I suggest a look at where the breadcrumbs are coming from before making conclusions.

I’m further suggesting the spam seen on these Gov. 2.0 boards supposedly originating from far left contributors is likely a far right attempt to generate a mockery of an open government pilot initiative. By generating a caricature version of their adversaries they attempt to generate bad blood from within.

Legitimate supporters get sidetracked and those in power get sandbagged in the attacking communications of their own supporters.

Completely irrespective of any of these views posted, my point is education and personal responsibility. If you are in support of any of the points proposed, support the idea while keeping the tone formal. Anything can be said in an inherently respectful manner. That respect is the vital ingredient that makes a community where users are free to speak.

I read into the phrase “formality” a euphemism for respect.

“Off topic” content branding should be done away with and replaced with accurate topic tagging – primarily for usability reasons, but also to discourage pre-filtering of public debate.

As for your request to cite specific social media networks where this occurs, I purposefully do not drop names because I find this gives flash-point agendas greater ammunition to build pyres under the wrong people and incinerate ourselves with even more efficiency.

Catherine Fitzpatrick September 26, 2009 · 9:27 pm

Lesley,

The idea that you can tell the people of America that they are “trolls,” or “off-topic” or that they are “incivil” if they disagree with government officials — especially bureaucratic “democratic centralism” officials of this nature — dates from some totally different era, perhaps when America was a British colony?

You really should catch up on the Supreme Court decisions of the last 40 years.

Times v. Sullivan is a good place to start since we’re here on the NYT.

//www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/comm/free_speech/nytvsullivan.html

You cannot sufficiently define what is “polite” or “civil” such as to enable only a handful of wired government officials to determine it all for us.

I’m finding the notion that the conservatives have set up fake far left sock-puppets to discredit the far left and these wonky “participatory” online tools — well, far-fetched. I don’t think the conservatives have in fact caught up with this wired online stuff as much as the hard left has.